Goodreads Choice Awards Book Club discussion
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We Need to Talk About Kevin
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We Need To Talk About Kevin - June 2013
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I really enjoyed this book and the movie adaptation
I've heard only great things! Hopefully you'll join the discussion :)
Ooh, I've been wanting to read this. Maybe I'll join you guys!
I'll wait until I finish the book then can't wait to see the movie.
Oh, it's on my TBR list, im in! Reading Game of Thrones right niw, so I'll have to start a little late.
I thought about adding Game of Thrones to my A-Z challenge list, but I wasn't sure how advantageous I was feeling (mainly for the length of just the one book and knowing I'd have to dive into several more upon finishing). Hope you're liking it!
Susan wrote: "I thought about adding Game of Thrones to my A-Z challenge list, but I wasn't sure how advantageous I was feeling (mainly for the length of just the one book and knowing I'd have to dive into sever..."It's not a book I would normally pick up, I heard so much about it, I think I just really want to like it. I too am doing the A-Z challenge, and I will need to add this to if if I intend to finish. So many others I really want to read instead though. May put it on hold.
I loved the Game of Thrones and all the other in the series, but I must admit, I'm a real fun of this type of literature, so for me it was a pure pleasure to read them. All the same, I think it is well written and very well built story, with a lot of smaller and bigger cliffhangers and twist and turns to the plot. Thus the story didn't seem boring despite the length of the books :)
yes! i was planning on reading this book but i never got around to it. this just might be my chance :)
The Song of Ice and Fire series - nothing can beat that. Best books ever ever ever Susan.
Ok, adding more books to the TBR! Thanks ladies :)
OK. I have started the buddy read. I am bored with Cleopatra: A Life and Great Expectations - I can only handle like a chapter at a time - so I had to start on one of my June reads. So I will be ready when you all are.
Susan. If you want to go letter by letter together and work some way to do this maybe I should wait or however we do it. I can stop now at 20% in. OK so what should I start next? I choose
Hi Sarah - I already bought Kevin and am really excited to read it, so if I'm still in for June if you are (Also, I just finished my D book and have started my T book, so no order for me haha).
I would love to buddy read Kevin with you. I am currently reading Crooked Letter, Crooked Letter but that shouldn't take more than a couple days.
Yes I am in. Stopped at 20% and ready in June.
Susan u silly. I didn't mean letter by letter your A-z challenge. I am referring to your comment about this book being written in an epistolary format - refer back to your first message where you * your last sentence. Are we both confused now?
Oh yes! Written letters vs. letters of the alphabet haha. I was getting confused by a different thread. I can start this weekend and catch up to you, if you'd like.
Whatever you want to do. I think we should wait til June for any others that may join, or maybe on June first or third or something we can talk about the first 20% and go from there. I read through letter December 13, 2000. Then maybe everyday we can decide how many letters to read and discuss it when we are done that day?
Ok that sounds good! I haven't had a chance to look over the chapters yet - about how long is each letters?And everyone else - if you're tuned in, how do you feel about discussing the first 20% on June 3rd?
Susan wrote: "Ok that sounds good! I haven't had a chance to look over the chapters yet - about how long is each letters?And everyone else - if you're tuned in, how do you feel about discussing the first 20% o..."
Sounds good. But it has been a minute since I put the book down so not totally fresh in my mind. Let me check where 20% is.
So 20% is around page 80. Through letter Dec.13, 2000
Ok cool! Almost there. About 25 pages away.
OK so what should I talk about. I am intrigued so far to learn more about what develops with Kevin. It seems the mom is so hard on herself as if she may have done something in her parenting to create a psychopath - if that is in fact what Kevin is. We don't know everything yet. But I read these 80 pages awhile ago and am having trouble remembering everything. I am curious to see what happened with the mother and father's relationship (don't remember names right now). It seems like the father was a good guy and they had a pretty good relationship in the beginning.
I found the movie very intense & I would love to read the book. Not sure when I'll get to it though :(
Yes Sarah - she spends a lot of time in the first 50 pages talking about her relationship with her husband (Franklin). I find it interesting that despite everything that has happened (the part that we don't know all the details about yet), she seems more upset about losing her relationship with her husband, than with that of her son.
The movie focuses a lot on Kevin's childhood, but in the book we get to see much more of the years before he was born.In the letter on December 8th, Eva says some very cold things about the prospect of motherhood. One line stood out to me in particular, "I would let parenthood influence our behavior; you would have parenthood dictate our behavior."
In the next letter (December 9, 2000), she has a confrontation with Kevin in which she tells him that his behavior is what turned her sour to motherhood. Do you believe her? From what she said in the previous chapter, do you think that she would have had a different outlook with a different child?
I have been having mixed feeling about both Eva and Franklin. One minute I feel Eva is cold, and next I find myself wondering how I would be able to deal with a child with obvious mental issues from the start. I feel Franklin is in love with the idea of his son, but not really in tune to his sons problems. I agree, Franklin and Eva seemed to have a nice relationship prior to Kevin, but once he arrived it seemed that Franklin pushed Eva aside. He would never believe her about her concerns about Kevin. I imagine its very hard to feel so unsure of your parenting and of your child's behavior, and having no one to confide in. I myself some times worry about my parenting, and it's over things on a much smaller scale than that if Eva, that's what moms do, we worry, we feel incompetent to some degree. I am very disappointed in Franklin based on what I've read so far, not supportive, and based on where we are so far, he left his family, especially the child he loved so much. Now I'm not sure if it was prior to Kevin's rampage, or due to it. I have not seen the movie.
The film definitely paints Franklin in a guilty light. I haven't gotten to that part of the story yet (hopefully this afternoon!), so I'm surprised to see this cold side of Eva (which is absent from the film, for the most part).I've just gotten to the part where Eva gives birth and she makes a good point that the doctor telling her that she's depressed doesn't help her feel less depressed.
I wonder if these letters are taking blame/responsibility for her mental state during this time or is she using this as an excuse. She's definitely a complex character!
It's as if its her own form of therapy. As a parent, you would hold yourself to be somewhat " to blame" for your child's actions. Sadly she had seems signs of a " troubled" child, but no one would listen. We shall see where this leads as we read on. I am reading January 1, 2001 right now.
I just started on the January 1st letter. I find it interesting that Eva talks about Franklin's over-tipping and his ability to see the good and people. The way she juxtaposes these traits with her own, it's apparent that this couple has inherent differences that existed long before Kevin. They discussed having a child ad nauseam, but never seemed to touch on their respective approaches to raising a child - which are obviously drastically different!Both of them seem to have good intentions, it's their lack of communication and understanding of each other that seems to be the problem and would have been a problem no matter who the child was. Throw a child like Kevin in the mix and they're bound for disaster.
I guess as we read on, one major question is if they approached parenting as a flawless team, would that have made a difference in Kevin or was he going to turn out the same no matter what?
It seems to me that maybe if Franklin wasn't in such denial about Kevin's behavior that maybe he could have received some kind of help. I agree they did step into parenting in an odd way, as if they were just fulfilling a duty as a married couple to go to the next stage. Most couples have that good cop/bad cop thing going, but Franklin and Eva are way out there. Parenting is hard enough, throw in their parenting styles and Kevin's issues and you are in for disaster. We can further discuss when you get to the January 19th letter.
Sounds good! Sarah - how far along are you?
Spoiler alert!Oh my, when I got to the discussion about divorce and they said they already knew where each of the children would go, I got that fine. When it was later stated that she hadn't realized he would be taking Celia, I figured ok, Kevin must have fessed up about the broken arm to punish his mother. As I continued to read, I started having second thoughts. (mind you I was still very unhappy with the way Franklin was behaving toward Eva and how his denial was even worse about Kevin.) I tried not to put too much thought into my suspicion, which turned out even worse than I had imagined. I had the hardest time getting through the last ten pages after they outed what happened to them. Over all. I was happy with the book. The first 40 pages or so where hard to get through for me, but after that, it picked up.
OK u gals r ahead of me and I work tomorrow so I feel I can discuss this. I have gotten to the point where Eva had the baby. I know a newborn has no ability to do this but I already thought it was so interesting how Kevin did not latch on to his mother right off the bat, she was unable to breast feed him or console him and Franklin was having quite a different experience with his baby. I felt like this baby is already showing signs of sociopathic or personality disorder signs with detachment issues and being good to one parent and not the other helping to split the parents. "Splitting" is actually a medical term used to describe manipulative behaviors like this in people with personality disorders such as antisocial or borderline. It is a pretty big deal that that initial bonding didn't occur. I would have been devastated if this has occurred with my daughter, who is now three, but she loved nothing more than to breast feed. She is still obsessed with my breast and likes to cuddle them. They are her number one comfort item. It was really hard to wean her and she breast fed for comfort in the end. It got annoying but she was also very attached to her mother - but also has attachments to all her family members. This child - Kevin - early on is showing signs of attachment problems that I don't think is Eva's fault. But the strain of it all probably plays a role of how their relationship develops. People with these disorders are the most difficult to treat with lack of empathy-fear of abandonment-manipulation-narcissism. Just a thought?
I will try to catch up tonight to January 19. I probably can discuss and read more on Friday.
I too felt there were many things with Kevin that were not quite right. As time goes on they escalate. The unfortunate way Franklin tried to make Eva feel as if she was being unreasonable about her complaints, as if she were "tattling". If they would have been able to work together, maybe there could have been some help.
OK racist or whatever you would call it. I am part Irish and Eva just claimed that the Irish don't age well and are thin skinned when she was referring to her Irish nanny. My grandmother has like no wrinkles but I guess she is Cech, not my Irish side, and she says it is because she has always used Vaseline on her face.
I just started January 6th (And probably won't be able to get much further before the weekend). This is where Franklin really starts to shock me, especially during the water gun rivalry when he says, "The movers peed their pants, but Mommer pooped the party." It's almost as if Kevin and Franklin are Eva's brothers rather than her son and husband.Sarah - I didn't know the term splitting. How young does that usually start? At what age to people start to develop sociopathic tendencies? I'm going to have to look this all up, ha. It's just mind-boggling to me that someone could be inherently evil when they're that tiny and dependent.
Also, in regards to the breast-feeding, there are some babies that are adverse to it, right? (I have no experience with motherhood yet and am basing this on an episode of The Office - eek). I wonder Kevin was able to sense Eva's resentment over the fact that he wouldn't initially take her breast, making him feel that this was not a safe place. These are all just thoughts that are flowing out of my mind, when really I can't seem to place the start of the cycle.
I don't know when sociopathic tendencies start, a newborn may be pushing it, but for whatever reason this author is painting the picture of these borderline behaviors early on. And we are definitely seeing the character traits develop further as he gets older. The thing is these traits are hard to deal with. People talk about the parents but Kevin is a master manipulator and he very much plays games with people's minds. This splitting behavior I mentioned is very apparent with his relationship with his mother and father. Franklin seems to have a blind spot when it comes to his son but Kevin also completely uses that - he acts very different toward his father and Eva discusses this. I actually think Eva sees her son very clearly. This child is scary. These people lack empathy. We can call Eva cold and excuse Kevin because he is a child but Kevin is truelly cold. He is a master manipulater. He is a liar. He is sadistic. I think Eva also may have some mothers intuition too that this child is somewhat evil - if that is the right word - maybe dangerous or deranged is a better word. Even his potty training was a game about controlling. But it is scary that this child is allowed to developed and go unchecked partly because Kevin has Franklin wrapped around his little finger and multiple questionable behaviors go unchecked and Franklin ends up enabling this child. Also Eva alludes to the narcissism in Kevin. I would not want this child in my life or around other children. Oppositional defiant disorder and borderline personality disorder and of course sociopaths - reak havoc on the lives of the people around the them. I can't say how I would be in this situation.
I don't know the research on when splitting starts but I do know Kevin is doing it. It is a characteristic and manipulation tool used in borderline personality. Also the lack of empathy is interesting because Eva also alludes to this - it may seem Kevin may laugh or smile or change his moods but it is like he is mimicking this behavior. They knows how to pretend and act out an emotion by observation from others but doesn't actually feel much emotion at all.
I have finished. Disturbing. I have to say though I had figured out the end early on. Shayne predictable but still was good. I really want to see the movie now.
Almost done, as well. Since I've seen the movie, I know where it's heading and now I'm starting to see everything line up. It's definitely easier to process while reading, rather than being presented this whole tale within 2 hours. The mimicking is definitely apparent in the January 17th later. Kevin is only 10 and he's already pulling his dad's leg by giving him what he wants to hear.
In that same letter, I find it disturbing that during Eva's conversation with a young Kevin about getting a job someday she says, "Then you'd have to go on welfare." Yes, Kevin is being difficult, but it's almost as if she doesn't know how to talk to a child.
I saw a lot of these instances along the way. Yes, Kevin has psychological issues, but Eva isn't helping them.
When Celia comes into the picture, I start to doubt the validity of Franklin's character. He was unfair to Eva all along, but to picture him being so indifferent to Celia doesn't add up. I feel like despite his differences with Eva, despite his feelings towards her secret pregnancy, he wouldn't be able to shun unconditional love for his daughter once he saw her.
Goodreads Choice Awards Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Crooked Letter, Crooked Letter (other topics)The Kitchen House (other topics)
*ABOUT KEVIN:
The gripping international bestseller about motherhood gone awry
Eva never really wanted to be a mother - and certainly not the mother of the unlovable boy who murdered seven of his fellow high school students, a cafeteria worker, and a much-adored teacher who tried to befriend him, all two days before his sixteenth birthday. Now, two years later, it is time for her to come to terms with marriage, career, family, parenthood, and Kevin's horrific rampage in a series of startlingly direct correspondences with her estranged husband, Franklin. Uneasy with the sacrifices and social demotion of motherhood from the start, Eva fears that her alarming dislike for her own son may be responsible for driving him so nihilistically off the rails.
*The book is told in an epistolary form, so it would be great if we could discuss letter by letter. I'm picking up the book later tonight and will see how it can be broken down.