Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion
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What Are you Reading?
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Salsera1974
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Dec 17, 2013 11:01AM
I've heard really good things about One Saved to the Sea. This is a f/f . . . er . . . shifter story. ;-) At least this one is about a selkie. You don't find selkie stories everyday! :-)
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KC - yeah, they aren't nice romances, that's for sure. I will have to dig deeper to find authors I WANT to finish... buit good writing/editing is absolutely key.Jodsh - Yeah, but it's depressing as hell. We're invite-only and calls-only for m/m, but for f/f we've been "wide open" for more than a year, and we only found 3-4 things we wanted to buy, and we did.
Salsera1974 wrote: "I've heard really good things about One Saved to the Sea. This is a f/f . . . er . . . shifter story. ;-) At least this one is about a selkie. You don't find selkie stories every...":-) I'll try a sample, thanks!
Sure thing. I can't vouch for it myself -- I haven't read it -- but it's pretty high up on my TBR. Once I finish the scavenger hunt, I plan to turn to it in January. I'm looking forward to it!
Susinok wrote: "Years ago before I was aware of m/m, I read Venus Envy by Rita Mae Brown. From there I read a lot of her other non-mystery fiction. Many of them had lesbian side characters or main ch..."I vaguely remember reading Rubyfruit Jungle... it was years and years ago.
But really, ultimately, it's about the story.
Aleksandr wrote: "KC - I hope f/f will develop along the lines of m/m, but right now, it's about 6-7 years behind this sub-genre in terms of development. Sadly. I really, really want to support more of the rainbow, ..."I'm in this weird position that we do public events around LGBT romance fiction (not just the Seattle conference, but also bookstore readings, public author events, etc.) and we partner with a lot of nonprofits, especially ones that focus on arts and LGBT issues, and what I've found is that we cannot separately focus on one branch without the others and still connect successfully to the community.
I think publishers and readers in the genre understand that gay romance/m/m is more popular and developed, but culturally, it doesn't make sense to people "outside" to see just G (or a lot of G) and no LBT. It actually becomes very distracting for them.
So, what I've found, in order to better connect and spread awareness of LGBT romance (and really, so many people in the LGBT communities that I've met have no idea these books exist) is to push the whole spectrum. For us, it's the only way that we can be successful and really connect to other groups, communities, nonprofits, media, etc.
We ran into this at the conference in September--the lack of market for lesbian romance, etc, and why lesbian romance seems to be eclipsed by gay romance, and what I've found is that the small market doesn't matter to most of those outside of publishing circles. The lack of visible inclusion becomes a big problem.
So, whether f/f or bi or trans* romances is smaller or underdeveloped, for us to work with groups and do public events, we have to move full steam ahead and spotlight the whole queer spectrum. Otherwise, the dialogue focuses on "Where are the lesbians? Why are you leaving out the lesbians?" and not issues like promoting the normaalization and better accessibility and awareness of queer romance fiction. (Which is what our mission is.)
I'm really happy that people do notice the difference in market sizes, since that helps push the discussion of how to increase the market for f/f.
So that's just my experience. In some ways, it's great to have this challenge. Although I meet a lot of disappointed queer readers who wish to see more LBT works. Often, they get the response of "No one buys F/F", etc, but really, they're readers that just want more, and want something to connect to, so I think it's better to try to transition the dialogue from "the market isn't there" to "Let's make this market grow and connect you to it." So those disappointed, unconnected readers can become happy fans too.
Susinok wrote: "The f/f parts of Iron & Velvet were fine. I thought the main character was fun and amusing.I see this book more as an urban fantasy which happens to have a lesbian protagonist rat..."
I agree with you. I have always read outside the norm, because, as you said, it is there I find new stories and perspectives other than mine. That is part why I read, to expand my awareness and horizon, to crawl into others' heads and hearts, to see the world from another angle. In the end it is about the story, the characters and the adventure.
ttg wrote: "So, what I've found, in order to better connect and spread awareness of LGBT romance (and really, so many people in the LGBT communities that I've met have no idea these books exist) is to push the whole spectrum. For us, it's the only way that we can be successful and really connect to other groups, communities, nonprofits, media, etc..."All good points, but if a really good publisher like Riptide is waiting with open arms for good f/f but can find hardly any it isn't the publishers' fault. Sounds as though some authors need to get writing and/or submitting!
Hj wrote: "All good points, but if a really good publisher like Riptide is waiting with open arms for good f/f but can find hardly any it isn't the publishers' fault. Sounds as though some authors need to get writing and/or submitting! "Part of it it might also be that f/f writers are devoting attention to publishers that more traditionally publish and market to f/f readers (like Bold Strokes, Bella, Cleis, etc.)
I won't get into the discussion of whether people like the books coming out of these presses, but those publishers focus a lot on f/f.
I think for gay romance, many publishers don't need to ask--people will come to them, but for those who want to publish more LBT titles, it will probably have to be a lot of outreach about opportunities, and also some old-fashioned wooing, and shifting writers to think outside of the circles that they're used to.
Josh wrote: "Okay. Someone explain to me what the charm is of shifter stories?"There's a lot to play around with: coming to terms with your nature & the need to change into your wolf, the acceptance (or lack of) by pack members for a gay wolf and of wolves by humans, the special problems that come with human/wolf mates, having the heightened senses or even behaviors of a wolf while in human form, to name a few.
I also like the strong pull between mates, although I prefer this to be handled so it's not exactly insta-love. Maybe some resistance or confusion as to what they're feeling.
More shifter suggestions: I liked some by Joely Skye, especially Lynx which is book 3 in her Northern Shifters series, and all three books in her Wolf Town series: Wolf Town, Push Pull, and Moon Run.
BTW, I also loved her Minders series which is about psychic mind control. Some events/people from these books come up in her shifter books, but from what I remember, not so much that you have to read these first.
Mod
These two series were among my favorites, gutsy and well-written. I've read a lot of urban fantasy with female protagonists, but have fallen behind reading my old favorites, as I got hooked on m/m. I enjoyed the Infected books a lot, but I haven't found another m/m series that's grabbed me. I'll check out some of the suggestions here. I happen to be reading a shifter book right now that will probably be DNF. I'm not even sure how/why I got it. Maybe it was free or I fell for a review. It's pretty much a no-cliché-avoided read.
Why shifters? Well, for me it was vampires. Decades of vampires. I think you need to look at the usual characteristics of supernaturals, how these can be skewed in an interesting manner, and how, whether skewed or traditional, these appeal to readers' imaginations or to their desires, genuine desires or those we consider/play with in our imaginations. Vampires: What would it be like to live forever? How does it feel to be a parasite? Must you kill to survive? Shifters: Does the idea of pack create a sense of familial security or of restrictive conservatism? How do your gain or retain your place in a rigid hierarchy? Or as a writer, how can you devise a less rigid version? Like the idea of literally letting out your wild side? Want to vicariously experience what it's like to be a real outsider/outlaw? Can you control your animal urges? What would it be like to "know" you'd found your mate? So there's a lot there to play with, but how does a writer pull together a fresh enough version?
My vote would be that Josh sticks with humans, with maybe a few fairies, goblins, and wizards here and there. ; )
Josh wrote: "Okay. Someone explain to me what the charm is of shifter stories? I’m late to the discussion but I wanted to add some of the things I love about shifter books, when they are well done. Along with trying to overcome odds of being different, hiding something that will cause others to reject you and finding complete acceptance with a mate who will never leave no matter what (I agree about not liking the instant love but having to work toward it). There is the sense of power but to me it’s more about an average person (ones that would be bullied at school, pushed around at the office or taken advantage of when they are older) given power to defend themselves and their love ones from anyone out to cause them harm, which the average person doesn’t have a chance to do. It’s not always about the physical power either but just being menacing enough to cause them to back off, like you would back off from a growling dog. Lastly there is the family aspect, the finding a pack the will accept you and have your back in all circumstances. I also love the Mercy Thompson books and Minders series . Sorry for the long diatribe…
It's really interesting how there seem to be these very solid conventions around the shifter genre - the concepts of mates, especially. Would a shifter story without mating be unsatisfying/missing something crucial?
K.J. wrote: "Would a shifter story without mating be unsatisfying/missing something crucial?"I doubt it. For sure there are lots of shifter stories around where the ''mating-thing'' is frankly irritating.
ttg - I'm totally with you. It boils down to "You cannot display a rainbow sticker on your romance blog - or wherever - and discriminate against bi people, lesbians, or trans people". I'm ... doing my part on the writing front, but the whole thing to me is too personal (and painful like hell) to be writing trans* romances anytime soon. I'm battling against this, but it's anxiety-related. I have years of baggage to get through this, and I can't write very well when i'm shaking and crying. However, Riptide is 100% behind the whole rainbow, to the point where we just make it work out of principle much more than market considerations.However, I do want to write a bisexual female adventurer in an early 19th century setting. She's FIERCE.
ttg - Sarah Frantz is doing a lot of outreach work at LGBT conferences, and I think we have decent credibility. Of course, bold Strokes and Cleis and the others you mentioon are WAY older than us, so they are much more visible. Riptide is still only what, tywo years old. :) It's practically a baby.
K.J. - I'm weird, I always thought the "mate" thing is lazy writing, basically paranormal "instalove".
Aleksandr wrote: "ttg - I'm totally with you. It boils down to "You cannot display a rainbow sticker on your romance blog - or wherever - and discriminate against bi people, lesbians, or trans people". I'm ... doing..."And I would love to read about her :)
Aleksandr wrote: "K.J. - I'm weird, I always thought the "mate" thing is lazy writing, basically paranormal "instalove"."Not weird at all! Many readers share your view.
Aleksandr wrote: "K.J. - I'm weird, I always thought the "mate" thing is lazy writing, basically paranormal "instalove"."I hated 'pair bonding' in Mercedes Lackey. I find it more fun if people have the choice to leave each other.
But then, my shifter story would go, "boy meets boy, boy eats boy, ends", because I reset to horror all too easily.
I think most shifter stories are too over the top, although there are a few I like, both Patricia Briggs' Mercy Thompson series and Kelley Armstrong's Otherworld series are good. I also enjoyed the first of Anne Bishop's new series with a very different take on the shifter mythos. But many others are rather stupid, and also plain lazy writing, as Alex says.It seems to be rather overdone these days.
Aleksandr wrote: "K.J. - I'm weird, I always thought the "mate" thing is lazy writing, basically paranormal "instalove"."I think that's one of the reasons why they never appealed to me when I read the reviews.
I agree that within a genre that everyone and their brother (or more likely, sister) seems to think they can write, shifter stories, for some reason, have been particularly abused by people who want to capitalize on this growing market. There's some really awful stuff out there. I guess it must seem like an easy formula to copy - that lazy part that you all speak of. But the mate-bonding is a draw for me. It's really just taking the 'destined to be together' element of romances to the nth degree. Handled right by a good writer, it doesn't have to be insta-love.
Mod
Such an excellent point, ttg.
Mod
This is the age-old publishing dilemma. In the old days -- and I assume it is true now too -- a publishing house used the big commercial successes to fund small, worthy projects. Books that would not make money -- would probably lose money -- but needed to be published, nonetheless.
The problem here seems to be a dearth of quality writing. Not just a noncommercial book. So it is a challenge.
Aleksandr wrote: "K.J. - I'm weird, I always thought the "mate" thing is lazy writing, basically paranormal "instalove"."I REALLY get tired of the 'mate' thing in paranormal romance. I don't like any trope that takes away personal choice.
Josh wrote: "This is the age-old publishing dilemma. In the old days -- and I assume it is true now too -- a publishing house used the big commercial successes to fun small, worthy projects. Books that would not make money -- would probably lose money -- but needed to be published, nonetheless."Still happens. I have a couple of things on my list that haemhorrage money. I fix the editorial meeting with a steely glare as I present them and get shouted at a lot by Sales, and we keep doing them, because we should. But then, I don't work for HarperRandomPenguin.
K.J. wrote: "But then, my shifter story would go, "boy meets boy, boy eats boy, ends", because I reset to horror all too easily. .."Well depending on HOW boy eats boy, it could still be romance... or erotica at any rate.
};)
I like all kinds of shifter stories, from the well developed Andrea Speed to the easy to read Siren Publishing stories. Of course some are much better than others. I am reading through a few shifter series and find they fit in quite nicely between longer books. I like urban fantasy and paranormal books both romantic and non-romantic so that's what attracts me. I also like reading the series because they provide a chance to explore different characters within the same world but over many books.
Na wrote: "The Infected series starts with a couple. I can't remember if Andrea Speed mentions the words Mate or Mating at all. It is not really the main focus here. Still there is nothing unsatisfying here. The relationship is sweet and heart-breaking...."Andrea Speed's shifter series is pretty much the most original one I have ever read. And no, there's no "mates" in her universe, just relationships, mostly tragic.
Ije the Devourer of Books wrote: "I like all kinds of shifter stories, from the well developed Andrea Speed to the easy to read Siren Publishing stories. Of course some are much better than others. I am reading through a few shif..."
I have to add Andrea Speed's Infected series to my list of shifter stories that I like. They are excellent in my opinion. But I also think they are somewhat unique in their take on the shifter trope.
Mod
I see this book more as an urban fantasy which happens to have a lesbian..."
It's startling to think that the f/f elements are the problem? But then I read so many reviews that seem to be about the clicks on a vibrator, so I suppose that's one of the challenges.
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Susinok wrote: "The f/f parts of Iron & Velvet were fine. I thought the main character was fun and amusing.I see this book more as an urban fantasy which happens to h..."
I didn't see anything wrong with the f/f elements. They were not the focus of the story but they were there and seemed credible enough for me given the characters and 'verse.
Mod
I agree that the audience for f/f is unlikely to be the bulk of the m/m readership. For the very reason that most m/m readers are romance readers, and romance is most effective when the reader connection is more than intellectual.
Josh wrote: "Anne wrote: "Susinok wrote: "The f/f parts of Iron & Velvet were fine. I thought the main character was fun and amusing.I see this book more as an urban fantasy which happens to h..."
After reading through many reviews here on Goodreads, I have come to the understanding that different people want different things from their reading ;)
Mod
There's a lot to play around with: coming to terms with your nature & the need to change into your wolf, the accepta..."
Interesting.
Yes, although I would say the one time insta-love is probably acceptable is in a shifter story! That is kind of the way of the animal kingdom. :-D
Mod
Yes, I think that's it. I used to wonder why I didn't get the whole vampire thing, either.
I'm reading these comments, and nodding, but there's no AH HA! I feel a greater AH HA! for writing f/f than I do most supernatural stories and that's because I have to emotionally connect in order to want to write.
I must read Nicole's Tangled. I can't believe it somehow slipped through the cracks!
Mod
I’m late to the discussion but I wanted to add some of the things I love about shifter books, when they are well don..."
I don't consider this a diatribe. I find it very interesting, especially when you guys are passionate about a topic like this. Even if it's just to educate myself, I appreciate the insight.
Mod
Yes! I think the idea of the predestined mate is a big one in shifter stories. At least judging from the blurbs I've read. A shifter story without mate? Hm. Other than The Wolfman variations, I don't know if I've come across that.
Josh wrote: "I agree that the audience for f/f is unlikely to be the bulk of the m/m readership. For the very reason that most m/m readers are romance readers, and romance is most effective when the reader connection is more than intellectual."You just said what I've been thinking, but didn't think I could say. I know that people read in this genre for a variety of reasons, but I will say that I do so because I find it deeply romantic, and I usually fall a little bit in love with at least one of the guys (yeah, I'm still a little bit in love with Jake, book nerd that I am ;-)). I've read gay lit featuring women, and I don't fall for them. I respect them; I feel for their struggles, and if it's well-written, feel the emotion between them, but fall for one of them? Not really. Maybe because I've only read gay lit? Nah, that has very little to do with it -- I fell for male heroes in literature all the time (Heathcliff, Darcy, Rhett, etc.). So I think there is something very real to your point about the type of emotional connection that romance readers make. There will absolutely be an audience for f/f, but I would be surprised if there was substantial crossover between m/m and f/f. I would expect to see a non-trivial amount, but I have a feeling that among the people who do crossover, they will usually have a primary allegiance to one genre or the other.
Mod
I think there will be -- from smarter readers anyway -- support for f/f endeavors. There will be respect and political allegiance. But that's not quite the same thing as a book readers can't wait to get their hands on, and that's the challenge. For both writers and publishers.
Aleksandr wrote: "ttg - Sarah Frantz is doing a lot of outreach work at LGBT conferences, and I think we have decent credibility. Of course, bold Strokes and Cleis and the others you mentioon are WAY older than us, ..."I hear you. My main point was to respond to your point about the low number of f/f submissions. I think realistically for any publisher getting into f/f (and thus, competing with Bold Strokes, etc), there will have to be a lot of external outreach and specific targeting (and wooing individual authors) more so than with gay romance.
We've really noticed that. F/F is in really separate circles, and we have to very actively go out to them (and very actively invite/participate) in order to show that we equally care about their needs and audiences too.
I agree with Josh's point too above about that LGBT romance audiences don't always overlap. (So, some who read m/m won't feel connected to f/f, and some f/f readers don't feel connected at all to m/m.) It's not interchangeable, and I don't want to make readers feel bad about not reading something if they're not connecting to it. (I have a lot of friends who love reading f/f, but are very much not interested in reading m/m, so they kindly tolerate my babbling, and I don't pressure them to read the books that I like reading.)
But what we found from out public event interactions is that there's demand to connect to characters across the queer spectrum, and if we don't properly address a part of the spectrum, it's noticeable and people will happily call you out on not addressing it. (As they should.)
In some ways, it's GREAT that more groups and organizations are actively understanding that there is more than "one kind of gay".
The challenge for us is dealing with the differences in market sizes and the differences in reader demands while still spreading awareness of LGBT romance works, and all the diversity that lies within the genre.
We don't always succeed at that challenge, but it's good to keep trying, I suppose.
Mod
I would say so! The alternative would be sad really.
I'm reading Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale. Right now I'm thinking "funny how the Tea Party didn't exist when she wrote this and yet it looks exactly like what would happen if they took over America..."
Mod
Ugh.
Becky wrote: "I'm reading Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale. Right now I'm thinking "funny how the Tea Party didn't exist when she wrote this and yet it looks exactly like what wou..."The Tea Party has been around for a lot longer than they had a name for it. I live smack dab in the middle of Tea Party country.
Yes I am a closeted Democrat in Oklahoma.
Mod
SHH. They don't know you're there. Don't make any noise!
Josh wrote: "SHH. They don't know you're there. Don't make any noise! ..."I'm not good at being closeted though. I get in people's face ALL THE TIME, but only if they start it.
Becky wrote: "I'm reading Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale."One of the best (and most depressing) books I've ever read!
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