The Light Between Oceans
discussion
Am I the only one who think Isabel is stupid and should of listen to Tom ?
No, you aren't the only one to think that Isabel should have listened to Tom. I would like to think that so many troubles could have been avoided. Plus, it would have only been the right thing to do. I guess that is what makes the novel so intriguing. I also listened to the audiobook. Even the narrator's delivery had you at the edge of your seat. Very well done!!
I am about 80% through The Forgotten Garden at the moment and loving it. I did see similarities between the two books, but The Forgotten Garden is amazing literature. Except for Hugh's "mistake" in not giving his wife the letter/ad looking for a child, but however, in Light Between, Tom did try to contact the parent. Admittedly, he did know who she was.Very strong messages in both books.
I can't imagine dealing with Isabel and Tom's problem. For me, living such a lonely existence would have been enough, but, now a light at the end of the tunnel has been thrown in. Even if Tom had been a stronger influence I think I understand Isabel's problem. I believe it had an effect on her mind.
I really enjoyed this book. I do agree that Isabel should have listened to Tom in the beginning of the novel and try to find the baby's parents.
Actually, I think they should have thrown the rattle and the blanket away...problem solved!!Saying that I have only read about 30% of it.
I hated this book. Isabel was so wrong, and her selfishness cause so many problems. The book left me depressed while reading it and afterwards for a while. I doubt I will ever read another book by this author.
I am currently at 91% of this book, meaning that Isabel is about (view spoiler)...that's my guess anyway...see you in 9%.
NEW to this discussion...I think Isabel should of listened to Tom, but because she was lonely and maybe a little depressed she didn't. If she had would we have had such a great book?
ok, just finished it and I was wrong, Isabel finally saw some sense...
Brenda wrote: "NEW to this discussion...I think Isabel should of listened to Tom, but because she was lonely and maybe a little depressed she didn't. If she had would we have had such a great book?"Well, I suppose there would not have been a need for this book at all.
I think the author wanted us to have mixed emotions about Tom & Isabel. This is a great discussion.
gertt wrote: "Eileen wrote: "I hated this book. Isabel was so wrong, and her selfishness cause so many problems. The book left me depressed while reading it and afterwards for a while. I doubt I will ever rea..."Perhaps well written, but it evoked such negative emotions in me that I really doubt I will read another book by this woman. Some people will get something out of this book; I did not. I truly wish I had not read it.
It's easy to forget that it's only just recently that people in general feel it's OK to seek help for any mental problems such as depression. Even now there is a stigma to some people about seeking help or therapy. Knowing more about the attitudes of the day may help to understand Lucy's behavior. I am not condoning what she did. It caused extreme suffering to some in the book and distress to just about all the other characters. She seemed to feel ashamed of the miscarriages and stillbirth and probably shared the attitude of most people that it was shameful to let anyone else know of her mental problems. I just don't think that the solutions to her problems were so self evident as we in more tolerant times may think they should have been. Post partum depression can be so devastating that women can kill themselves or their babies.Having said that I have to add that I was shocked that she was so enraged with Tom that she would even think about letting him take the blame and possibly even face hanging if he was convicted of murdering the man in the boat. I wasn't surprised that she decided to tell the truth. It seemed that she finally remembered her love for him and especially his love for her and that she couldn't let Tom be punished for something that she was more to blame for than he was.
I thought it was a beautifully written book although filled with so much sadness. I'm looking forward to her next book.
I agree with those who commented on the overwhelming nature of grief and how irrational behavior is only one outcome, the other being a lost future when incredible hurt brings life to a screaming halt.
YES! Tom should have forced the issue and avoided all this pain. I'm sure Isabel would have been miserable but as it turns out, no more miserable then having to give up the child she raised.Can someone please tell me how Lucy/Grace's father could have possibly died in that boat?? That's the part of the story that really makes no sense to me.
Oh, I didn't catch the weak heart. I was probably skimming at that point.
Frenchie, I agree with you totally. People think of the times, people did not go hurrying off to the doctor for any old thing, least of all post part depression. You did not talk to every Tom, Dick and Harry about these problems. Show some compassion for the women. Besides it was an excellently written book, beautifully developed and a great read for book clubs everywhere, generating many discussions.
I agree with Frenchie and others who called for compassion for Isabel. And you can have compassion for someone without condoning what they did. Besides I think a huge part of the book was about the moral dilemma and how it was dealt with by Tom and other characters. Just as the lighthouse was caught between the two oceans Tom was also caught between his love for Isabel and his vow to never harm another again after his war experiences. If Isabel had let Tom return the baby it would have been a different book. And honestly, can anyone of us posting here claim that they never made a foolish decision that caused trouble or even grief?
I loved A LIGHT BETWEEN TWO OCEANS so was happy to see several people recommending THE FORGOTTEN GARDEN by Kate Morton. I immediately went to my on line library to order it on my ebook. Thanks to everyone.
Do you think Isabel would have made the same decision if they did not live such a solitary life. Her world was only Tom and the island. I dont think she made a good decision and did not change her decision once she met Hannah. But the loss of her babies must have devistated her.I was also dissappointed that she not only did not see how badly Tom was being torn apart by their decision, then turned her back on him.
How different would everyone feel if Hannah was was not a good person?
gertt wrote: "Peggy wrote: "Do you think Isabel would have made the same decision if they did not live such a solitary life. Her world was only Tom and the island. I dont think she made a good decision and did..."SPOILERS........
I agree that Isabel was a bit immature and petulant before even meeting Tom and the isolation of life on the island, accompanied by the loss of her babies, caused even more instability. It is possible that Isabel would have outgrown some of her character flaws if she had given birth to healthy babies and was able to mature into motherhood without having to take another woman's baby.......but, then we wouldn't have a story to read. :)
I also agree, Gertt, that my feelings for Isabel went from annoyance to anger when she thought about actually letting Tom take all the blame, but then she ultimately, in the end, chose Tom over the baby. That was actually the most poignant part of the book for me. Did your feelings about Isabel change at all at that point?
What I wonder is what would you do if you were Hannah, the mother, in this situation. Yes we can all justify to a certain extent what Isabel did, but if you were Hannah and your daughter was returned to you, a complete stranger, what would you do? Your daughter clearly is confused and hurting and missing her 'parents'. Would anyone think they could be strong enough to let Lucy stay with Isabel? I admit in some parts I was angry with Hannah,I was yelling at her to let Lucy go. Everyone was suffering due to her return. Hannah withdrew, Lucy was hurting. Wouldn't it be in the best interest to let Lucy stay with Isabel with stipulations such as living up the street and allowing visitation.. And what about the Grandparents? I mean as a parent we all want what is best and our child's happiness... just a different way to see things... thoughts???
gertt wrote: "Isabel did suffer from depression after losing her babies, but I think she also had other issues as well...she always bent the rules or pushed the limits. When Tom met Isabel she was on the beach ..."now that you point it out, its so true, Isabel is sweet and all, but she has issues. I think he reason she never followed rules is because she never really thinks of anyones needs but her own ever.
I think Tom is also acting stupid, I feel terrible for hi, he only has good intentions but he seriously needs to grow a backbone.
I didnt think that Isabel was a stupid person because she seem to be suffering from postpartum depression after so many miscarriages. I did feel sympathy for her and for Tom in deciding to keep Lucy. Isabel's story perfectly explains how someone who cant have a baby and wants one fiercely may go to the extreme of abducting a child. Isabel's self justifications and avoidance of people is how she made it ok in her mind. She did become a very dislikable character specially when she found out Lucy did have a mother and then she was simply selfish.
Frenchie wrote: "I think that people tend to forget that once upon a time, the main thing for a woman was to have a husband and children. Things may have changed, women are going to work, are independent, but one t..."I think you are exactly right.
I feel like Isabel should have listened to Tom, but if she did would this book have been written? (lol). I kept trying to feel how Isabel must have felt. I never had a miscarriage nor have children, so I don't know that love/feeling. Plus in that time women were supposed to have children. I have infertility issues, and I married an only child..end of the line last name wise so I feel the pressure. And then being on an island where it's just your husband and you don't see family/friends for long periods of time I'd probably go a little crazy.But I still can't get around Isabel keeping the child. Maybe b/c I would go insane wondering what really happened to the mother, or constantly thinking about being selfish. And after meeting Hannah, I probably would hate myself. But how weird to just go up to her give her child back and apologize. You couldn't just move away and get on with your life back.
I felt for Tom, because I feel like if I was in that situation I may have bent too, to make my spouse happy, but then couldn't live with the guilt either and would too find a way to notify the birth mother.
Overall, what they both did was wrong. My heart bled for Hannah. I don't think I ever felt so bad for a character before. To lose your husband and child, towns people against you/your husband, and then father issues..
Amanda wrote: "I feel like Isabel should have listened to Tom, but if she did would this book have been written? (lol). I kept trying to feel how Isabel must have felt. I never had a miscarriage nor have children..."Maybe this book would not have been written! After I finished it, I went around in a depressed fog for days. I doubt I will ever read another book by this woman.
I don't think Isabel was stupid. She was smart and cunning. I agree she was depressed about the miscarriages. I understand even keeping the child they found. Forget wrong and right. They were human. I understand Tom wanting to support his wife... Remember Isabel and Tom live in virtual solitude. Isabel was Toms only ray of sunshine. A dutiful loving husband supports their partner right?
Where I lost respect for Isabel was knowingly keeping the child.... After looking into the grieving mothers eyes. She saw a frail thin grief stricken lady who at least briefly seemed to recognize her child. Isabel remained silent. Then fought bitterly to keep her when the cat was out the bag. It was sickening to read after that.
I thought she illustrated a tiny bit of some redeeming quality when she sent a notice/letter comforting the mother letting her know the child was alive and safe.....UNTIL I FOUND OUT IT WASNT SHE WHO SENT IT. Then she had the nerve to get mad at Tom. smh.
I think this is when I felt the story was going toward madness. Isabel was becoming less of a character and more of a caricature. I could see if she just never had children. But she had 3 miscarriages. She was indeed a mother. She knows the pain of a mothers loss, of a child that is seemingly gone to soon. To know that pain and CHOOSE To continue to inflict that pain on another mother...knowingly....in the same room...that made Isabel more than stupid. She became almost an evil grief stricken witch from childrens story. Then to turn against the husband who at least tried to support you in your trip down madness lane...I began to think, what kind of future could this child have with Isabel. What would she teach this child even if the charade continues? What kind of grandmother would she be?
I would have liked some reunion between the child and Isabel . I mean after 10,20 yrs or so ...Just to hear Isabel reason this out in her own words to her living lost and found project....but ahh as fate would have it only the sane who shall prevail to the end of a book.
I think here the story oddly switches from Isabel to Toms story. Its like Isabel is this unexplained animal. We attribute her actions to her miscarriages... but we really never hear her attempt a reasonable explanation for her actions. I understand that women can suffer. God knows I understand that....but not all women turn into soulless, deprived, ghosts of themselves while suffering. I mean maybe for a brief period we do ;) but then Some women...gasp...get it together and do better with their lives than they were doing before the suffering began. It is evil to suffer like this and then turn around and inflict this on other people. It would have been nice to see her recover, come to her senses, take joy in a reunion, be a god parent. Alas that would be like looking for a light between two oceans
Yes, but at that time, all they had was probably asylums and lobotomy. Isabel not seeking help is not too suprising..now that I see how she can stare down a grieving mother with the mothers child in her hand and not blink....I am more surprised that Tom did not insist on seeking help for his wife. For a woman it was probably a bit shameful, not being a 'fruitful' wife who fulfilled her husbands dreams. More than a bit Depressing. But for Tom I bet that was frightening to see. Men gag at the sight of menstrual blood, much less a stillborn and a blood spattered wife. I am surprised he just didn't say, listen Isabel, you do you...but I have got to mention this to someone. Maybe bring it up while out with the guys... " hey joe, your wife ever gush blood, ever had to bury a child?, man this wife and lighthouse thing is pretty tough" But I suppose it was a time where people were hardy, did for themselves...especially people who choose to live on island with just a light house.
I am glad Tom stayed somewhat sane, was the voice of reason...but then I didn't like how that made Isabel seem unreasonable by default. I kept waiting for Isabel to show some humanity, have some explanation beyond the miscarriages, but she never did. No one did. Not even Tom really. I couldn't quite make out what the authors intentions were.
To explain why people take kids? To explain the maddening ordeal behind miscarriages? Then the child returns and she is a mother herself. It would have been nice to have a glimpse on how this impacted her. I am sure there were whisperings as she grew up. Her mother may have had a little PTSD, been over protective. I would have liked to hear about that. But its like she appears and is like, Hi I am a perfectly ok adjusted person who cant even remember this remote connection....and I really don't have too many questions about how and why it occurred.
A strange story. Nice book club read though
I absolutely agree with Illiterate. I love books that ask "what if" questions. However, I didn't find any ethical or redeeming behavior from Isabel. Are we a spoilt society? Why can't we accept defeat! Why is it so hard to do the moral thing?In earlier centuries, women had many babies because, beyond the fact that contraception was little known of, they had to have large families; out of, say, 9 children, two may survive hopefully along with the mother who often died in childbirth. Death was truly a part of life and they did grieve at the loss of any one of their children, but they could accept it as a part of life and go forward as best they could.
Elizabeth was selfish. She could not accept her own life path, so she destroyed the well being of those who cared about her and the mother of the child she kidnapped. This phenomenon is becoming too popular in our present day culture. We can,t get pregnant, so we get IVF which I can really understand particularly if you love your partner and see yourselves being together for life overcoming the obstacles life life inevitably will throw at you.
However, there are whispers in the wind that people should be able to choose the sex of their child! How ethical is that? What ever happened to natural selection?
I may appear to have gotten off topic but I cannot see anything redeeming about Isabel's actions. Sometimes we just have to "suck up" what life hands us and it makes us stronger, especially if we know we have done the right thing. Isabel was in the prime position of knowing exactly how the mother would be suffering and her husband was not backward in reminding her but she would have her way!
I really enjoyed this book. I think I had to suspend belief about a lot of things and just accept their decisions and got swept along with the whole idea that any of this could be possible. Some books do demand that we do. They are supposed to transport us away from real life, which is what this book did.Imagine living in such an isolated way. So far from what I am used to, I was able to let my imagination run wild.
Mainly it was the writing rather than the story that kept me reading until the end but I am in agreement with a lot of what has been said (especially if I use my sensible head!).
Agreed, it was an easy read. I also agree the isolation had a big impact on some of the actions, But then once Isabel and tom returned to the mainland- I would like to think that 'reality' would have clicked. Perhaps the knowledge that they were returning back to isolation made Isabel endure. In away, The real world, was but a brief stop on a cruise ship....the isolation and the grief is what she had to endure on a daily basis back at the lighthouse. So facing a grieving mother of a child she had taken- is just a brief encounter with a world she had lost touch with...an encounter that was worth the awkward moment as long as she did not have to return to the isolation and grief at the light house, her new 'real world'.
I think it is impossible to put yourself in Isabel's shoes, so you can't imagine what she was thinking. She had miscarried a few times so she was desperate for a baby...and may have been suffering from hormonal stuff akin to postpartum depression. Also, you can't imagine how lonely the life of a keeper's wife can be. Having done so much research for the books I write, I have learned that lighthouses are typically in remote places (in this case on an island near nothing with no visitors or activity). The weather is bad much of the year and there is little to do. Talk about getting cabin fever! And Isabel was so young, barely an adult. So if you think about all of that you can see how she justified what she did. It did seem like a gift from God when a beautiful, healthy baby arrived on the island out of the blue! I really enjoyed the book but didn't like the ending. It jumped from Tom and Isabel leaving her hometown to start over somewhere new to her dying of cancer. What happened in between? Did they have some happy years or was her life just one long sad moment? What about Tom? Did the visit from the daughter mean they were going to have some kind of relationship or was this just a curiosity satisfying thing?
Yes and now we get into the subjective rating of books. I can appreciate any book that tells a story. There are only so many stories of course. But a really good book can tell a story from a different perspective and make it sound brand new. An excellent book can make me LIVE the story, believe the story, see it as it happens, makes me check the back and be sure it is fiction and not non-fiction. :) an excellent story dares to make me believe it is the first story of its kind. No matter the actions of the characters... moral or immoral... the author must make me see the life from their eyes and understand their world. Everything must fit. Even the ending. So I think this is where this book is lacking. I had to ( and continue to) speculate too much about why Isabel did the things she did. I feel like this is the authors job to tell the story. And where I speculated, there was no satisfactory ending to confirm speculations.
I guess in other words Isabel character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. Sometimes this is ok...say in a mystery. But this was not a mystery. So why leave Isabel ...a character who is about to do a horrendous thing... so mysterious? I think it turns her into a caricature. A good story has you feel the passion of all the main characters, good and bad.
And so at the end of this novel I wrestled with- What was the intended message from the author? Women who steal kids are evil/crazy? OK that is not a new story for me. Would have much rather heard a version that made me think that kid stealers were rational, caring beings. That's a new story. So why DID the author tell THIS story? Maybe don't invest in lighthouse real estate?
I agree with illiterate and Gertt. There was something fundamentally unsatisfying about the story. I think Illiterate hit the nail on the head.
I think the fact is that it was only her and Tom for a while and having several miscarriages was just not a healthy way to live. Unfortunately, as others have said, her deep sorrow made her make the wrong decisions and Tom just couldn't say no to her since she was showing signs of depression and he felt bad of having her live in a place where she can't really interact with anyone but him. It is a wonderful book and I thoroughly enjoyed it!
Honestly, this book drove me nuts! It was pretty hard to finish it because of Isabel's character, she's kind of stupid-crazy for insisting that Lucy's her daughter and that I'm sure enough that she was sane enough to actually realize that she didn't give birth to her. How could she not understand that she stole a mother's child and how it would feel?! Plus Tom should've been a bit more forceful, he should have done the right thing the next day they found her without Isabel knowing. What they did was wrong. No excuses. No exceptions.
What a breath of fresh air, Jumana. Finally someone has had the confidence to say it as it is. I couldn't agree with you more. We have become such an apologetic society. Wrong is wrong; simple as that. No excuses.
My apologies Gertt, I am sorry I missed mentioning you and a few others who have not found excuses for Isabel. I guess it was just that there seems so few who don't. I do get annoyed when someone says this way of thinking means we have no compassion. I have loads of compassion for the mother of this child who not only lost a child but also a husband. Simply, Isabel made a choice. Not a good one. I hope that the majority of people who had suffered loss and grief would make a different choice in recognition of those who don't have a choice, like Lucy's mother.
I really didn't enjoy the book that much because I thought both Isabel AND Tom were nuts. They were in this together. Tom can't say, "Well my crazy wife made me bury this body and not report it because she was depressed. I know Tom came around but watching Isabel throw him under the bus so to speak was too much for me. I was feeling sorry for the poor mother who actually lost her husband AND HER child thinking they were both dead. Isabel has no conscience and that is crazy.
Laureen wrote: "What a breath of fresh air, Jumana. Finally someone has had the confidence to say it as it is. I couldn't agree with you more. We have become such an apologetic society. Wrong is wrong; simple ..."Thank you Laureen! Alot of people are giving her excuses for what she did, which I can't get.
Laureen wrote: "gertt wrote: "Melissa wrote: "So even though they made the wrong choice in the beginning, they were a family. And they were her parents. What makes a parent? Someone that gives birth or someone tha..."I agree, Laureen. There's a price to be paid for not being upfront on an action that has such widespread effect. You would think that Isabel would consider what the real mother would feel and consider that, especially in light of her own feelings. Mostly I hurt for Tom who knew better and had to fight his own instincts and ultimately, paid a bigger price for the decision of his wife.
Yes, thank you Pamela, those are my thoughts too. Overall, I thought the book was unrealistic and I just couldn't warm to it. Just because it was a fast read doesn't mean that it an enjoyable read. Tom was the only one I felt a teeny bit sorry for and, of course, Lucy's birth mother who was on her own for so long, probably with all sorts of ghastly scenarios running through her mind about what may have happened to Lucy & her dad.
Thanks Gertt, and I agree with you.
Broken people often make foolish choices based more on emotion and perception than on what is truly best, or right. The entire book deals with this, from many different angles. Isabel was not stupid, she was just so overwhelmed by her pain that she perceived Lucy as a gift from God for the long haul, a personal life-line, rather being strong enough to see that she was at the right place at the right time to help this little one survive until she could be reunited with her family. All of her past experiences, helped her to form this perspective and make her choices.Tom was still so filled with the guilt, pain and shame of losing his mother, that he couldn't imagine losing Isabel by standing up to her in this choice. He should have been true to himself and his responsibilities as the keeper of the lighthouse. But in reality, his loyalties were torn, and he chose for love, until faced with the consequence of their decision ~ and then there were NO good answers, only tough ones!
I don't think she's stupid. She's just a woman who has suffered a lot and found a kind of catharsis with the little Lucy. Like Hannah, who suffers from the disappearance of little Grace. Both are mothers, both love the same baby and anyone can blame for the love they feel. In this book there is not guilty, only victims and it's difficult to take a side for someone in particular.
Stupid is a harsh word to embody someone with. I would classify her behavior as 'blinded by love'. Desolation and emotion largely contributed to her behavior, after the first few days with Lucy she was then bound by the single most powerful force in our existence: love. There was nothing Isabel wouldn't have sacrificed for Lucy. No one would stand in her way of nurturing that little girl without force. I admired Isabel's strength throughout.
David wrote: "Stupid is a harsh word to embody someone with. I would more classify her behavior as 'blinded by love'. Desolation and emotion largely contributed to her behavior, after the first few days with L..."I agree with you, Isabel was blinded by love and so many times we can make mistakes in the name of love.
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The book really is about what a terrible toll on a person isolation and unimaginable loss can be. And Isabel, in my views, is an excellent character to convey that message. And accordingly, Tom is the mirror that reflects all the poor choices made in unforgiving black-and-white circumstances and thus offers us a peephole to see those choices for what and how they truly are on an emotional level.
It's an amazing story and a masterfully composed piece of literature for it's rough charm and insight in psychological and moral transformation that can befall basically anyone.