Discussion - Week Four - Borges - The Circular Ruins

[Jim]

This discussion covers the story, The Circular Ruins

“He feared that his son would meditate upon his unnatural privilege and somehow discover that he was a mere simulacrum. To be not a man, but the projection of another man’s dream – what incomparable humiliation, what vertigo!”

Borges explores the big existential questions in The Circular Ruins - who am I? where do I come from? am I only another man's dream?

What were your impressions of this dreamed fire-golem?

[Zadignose]

I'd say that, of the stories we've covered so far, this is the first one to go for 'the big ending,' and I wasn't so sure it was the way I wanted it to go.

What I mean is, as the ending was approaching, I anticipated the ending and thought "it could unambiguously conclude that the protagonist *is* a dream, just like his son." I asked myself, would that be the best way for it to end? I thought "no." Maybe I've become accustomed to Borges's embracing of ambiguity, so I thought it might be enough to hint at such a conclusion without making it certain. But the story went for the profound zinger.

As usual, though, I'm ambivalent. I find myself internally arguing both in favor of and against the author's decision, and I have a vaguely unsatisfied but uncertain feeling about it all. Hence I'll need a second reading... again.

[Mala]

This story is one of my fav ones & it reminded me of Poe's famous poem A Dream Within A Dream- I wondered if Borges had read it cause he was first & foremost a poet!

You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand-
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep- while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?

In the foreword to Ficcions,Borges clearly stated that all is unreal in Circular Ruins,so I was mentally prepared still the twist ending was delicious! But more than anything else this story stands out for some beautiful writing which evokes a sense of timelessness:
"The ruins of the sanctuary of the god of Fire were destroyed by fire. In the birdless dawn, the sorcerer watched the concentric holocaust close in upon the walls. For a moment he thought of taking refuge in the water, but then he realized that death would be a crown upon his age and absolve him from his labors. He walked into the tatters of flame, but they did not bite his flesh—they caressed him, bathed him without heat and without combustion. With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he realized that he, too, was but appearance, that another man was dreaming him"

It got quite a lot of space (along with The Aleph) in Andrew Hurley's introduction:
"Borges' prose style is characterized by a determined economy of resources in which every word is weighted, every word (every mark of punctuation) "tells." It is a quiet style, whose effects are achieved not with bombast or pomp, but rather with a single exploding word or phrase, dropped almost as though offhandedly into a quiet sentence: "He examined his wounds and saw, without astonishment, that they had healed." This laconic detail ("without astonishment"), coming at the very beginning of "The Circular Ruins," will probably only at the end of the story be recalled by the reader, who will, retrospectively and somewhat abashedly, see that it changes everything in the story; it is quintessential Borges."

And I was so gratified that I too had noticed the oddity of this line:
"One of the most famous opening lines in Spanish literature is this: Nadie lo vio desembarcar en la unánime noche:"No one saw him slip from the boat in the unanimous night." What an odd adjective, "unanimous."But it is just as odd in Spanish, and it clearly responds toBorges'intention, explicitly expressed in such fictions as "The Im-mortal," to let the Latin root govern the Spanish (and, by extension, English) usage."

I think I've beaten Larou here in writing long passages!

[Whitney]

Mala wrote: ""No one saw him slip from the boat in the unanimous night." What an odd adjective, "unanimous."But it is just as odd in Spanish, and it clearly responds toBorges'intention, explicitly expressed in such fictions as "The Im-mortal," to let the Latin root govern the Spanish ..."

The odd use of 'unanimous' in the opening sentence caught my eye as well, thank you for confirming it is the same in the Spanish. I hadn't thought to consider the meaning of the root words before either, which is "of one mind". Perfect!

[Bill]

animus -- mind, secondary meaning passion or wrath

Mala, you asked a while ago for a reference with Borges obsession with solipsism, and I think this story is probably the best.

[Mala]

Thanks Bill. And to think this is one of my fav Borges stories- how solipsistic of me!

[Barbara]

OH NO -- only six posts and the discussion is over??? I hope some of you come back here, because I have some questions.

I finally had a chance to read The Circular Ruins. This is only the second Borges story I've read -- Pierre Menard was my first, so I am still very new to Borges' style.

Zadignose commented on "the big ending" and I believe I saw some comments about the ending in the reviews for The Circular Ruins.

SO, I'm confused. Why is it a "bad thing" for Borges to reveal the fact that all along, someone was dreaming the main character?? Maybe I'm not as erudite as the average Borges reader, but I don't think I would have figured this out on my own.

Yes, of course there were certain points that were mentioned in the story which might make someone think that the dreamer is being dreamed, but honestly, I really NEEDED to be told at the end.

Does this mean my "Borges days" are over? If most of his stories make you "figure out" that "the dreamer is being dreamed" I don't think I'll "get" the other stories!!!

I thought Circular Ruins was beautifully written, and I absolutely loved the ending. I really needed to be told that this was someone else's dream.

[Whitney]

Barbara wrote: "OH NO -- only six posts and the discussion is over??? I hope some of you come back here, because I have some questions.

I finally had a chance to read The Circular Ruins. This is only the second B..."

I wouldn't say it's a 'bad' thing, just not typically Borgesian to be so direct. And his other stories aren't different in that they drop hints about what's 'really' going on instead of making it clear, but more that there isn't a definite 'really' there, if that makes sense. I'm sure the other participants in this discussion will be more eloquent about things.

[Zadignose]

Hi.

The perspective I was taking was not that the reader should be expected to "figure out" that the narrator was a dream. Rather, it could have been ambiguous, subject to doubt. That would be more in line with the approach Borges has employed in some of the other works we've read. But honestly, I'm not sure how I would specifically have chosen to end the story, if I were writing it. Just, perhaps, not that way.

As the ending was approaching, I asked myself if, ideally, it should end with a punchline thus:

Book: "Tada! It was all a dream!"
Reader: "Dude, what a head-trip!"

I concluded, "no."

[Barbara]

Whitney and Zadignose, Thank you very much for your explanations.

Zadignose, I think that if this story would have been ambiguous and subject to doubt, which is what it would have been if Borges didn't tell us it was a dream at the end, I would never have thought that the dreamer was in a dream... Unless, as Whitney wrote in her post, there were more "hints" throughout the story.

If there actually were hints within this story about who the dreamer actually was, I don't think I would have found them. Actually, I did find those hints, but only because Borges was kind enough to let us know at the end (and then I reread the story and saw just one or two "fairly" strong hints, but I don't think I would have put two and two together without the announcement at the end.)

I really loved this story. Maybe even a little more than Pierre Menard, although they are SO different. Pierre Menard was absolutely hilarious, and The Circular Ruins was very thought-provoking, philosophical, and serious. Pierre Menard was thought-provoking as well, but the humor of that piece made these two stories seem to be so different.

I've already made a copy of The Lottery in Babylon, which is the next Borges story we're reading here. I will start it in a few days, because I want to read The Circular Ruins once again to see if I have anything more to add to this discussion before we move to the next story.

I'm very interested to see how The Lottery in Babylon compares to the first two stories I've read.

I'm finding that my translation is different from the version most of you are reading -- I think you're all reading the "Ficciones" edition, and I'm reading versions that I found online. Based on some of the quotes in the posts here, my translation is a bit different.

Zadignose, your ending (in Message 9 of this thread) isn't very far off from the way Borges presented it (in the translation I have), although I'm glad he did not say "Tada! It was all a dream!" LOL!

This was the final line in my edition: "With relief, with humiliation, with terror, he understood that he also was an illusion, that someone else was dreaming him."

[Mala]

@ Barbara: I'm so glad you loved this story & its ending cause I felt the same way!
The title, The Circular Ruins,with the image of a thing turning upon itself; of a dreaming dreamer himself being dreamed– is itself a dead give-away in winking neon lights! Add to that the dream-like atmosphere of the story ( Can you really imagine those things happening in reality as they do in this tale?) & the writer has given you enough clues.

This idea,of only the self itself can be known with some certainty,of solipsism, is stretched to the limit in that even that self becomes illusory! This questioning of the nature of reality,of perception,of dreams, will be encountered again & again in Borges' fiction.

Now to answer why the "big ending" was a "bad thing"? You'll have to recall Borges' liking of detective genre & his tendency of turning that into metaphysical questions. The big reveal at the end is the classic trope of detective fiction known as the twist ending or the sting in the tale- Maybe for once Borges took pity on his readers & thought ok let me help them out! Let's accept it for variety's sake.
In any case it's a writer's prerogative regarding what he chooses to do with his material.

As for the " perceived difficulty" of reading Borges; I think the following lines from Steven Moore's The Novel: An Alternative History: Beginning to 1600, will prove very helpful:
" Critic Jack Green addressed " The 'Difficult' Cliche" in a section of his book Fire the Bastards!...that a novel ( or a story as in this case) is difficult only if you read it like a textbook,in which each paragraph has to be mastered before moving on to the next." ...Great advice if following a cookbook,but we don't watch movies or listen to music that way. Can you imagine watching a movie with someone who kept stopping and rewinding it every time he wasn't 100 percent sure he had completely understood what had just happened and noted every detail on the screen?...It isn't a matter of submitting uncritically to a difficult work; it's about trusting that the artist knows what he/she is doing even if you don't apprehend it right away. Just keep reading: even the most difficult novel will eventually make some sense,and if you realize you missed something,you can always go back for a second try if still curious. As the late David Foster Wallace once wrote," some art is worth the extra work of getting past all the impediments to its appreciation"."

[ Thanks to NR for the link, & Jim if non -fiction is allowed then perhaps we shd read either volume of Moore's History in 2014. His opinions make him just the right mascot for Brain Pain.]

[Jim]

Mala wrote: "[ Thanks to NR for the link, & Jim if non -fiction is allowed then perhaps we shd read either volume of Moore's History in 2014. His opinions make him just the right mascot for Brain Pain.] ..."

NR has a high opinion of Moore's work so we should consider looking at it in BP. We could read it next year, but since it's non fiction, maybe we could start some sort of open discussion of Moore's work sooner than that. If you have any ideas about reading Moore, please go over to the Suggestions for 2014 thread and let's brainstorm some ideas. NR hasn't steered me wrong, so let's look into Moore and see what happens.

[Zadignose]

I do like the common sense on display in the quote about "perceived difficulty."

[Mala]

Thanks Z. I hope you'll like the book too- I can't wait to read it!

[Rise]

When I read this, the first image that came to mind was the Stonehenge, even if the "circular enclosure" or "amphitheater" referred to was a "temple".



And there's a second temple near the circular ruins. It has been mentioned at least 4 times, perhaps connected to the dream projection or mirror image of man.

"He knew that, downstream, the incessant trees had not managed to choke the ruins of another propitious temple."

"The other broken temple whose pyramids survived downstream."

"The other temple whose debris showed white downstream."

"other circular ruins, downstream."

In 2009 a second henge (apart from the previously discovered "Woodhenge") was discovered near the first Stonehenge. And it's along a river too.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/20...

[Jim]

Rise wrote: "When I read this, the first image that came to mind was the Stonehenge, even if the "circular enclosure" or "amphitheater" referred to was a "temple".



And there's a second temple near the circu..."

Thanks for the link! I remember watching a documentary about the second henge a few years ago.

Did you enjoy the Borges story?

[Rise]

Yes, I read it many times already, but it's as if I'm still surprised by the ending. :)

[Jim]

Rise wrote: "Yes, I read it many times already, but it's as if I'm still surprised by the ending. :)"

It's certainly one of his best that we've read this year. The first time I read it, I thought, "Whoa! How cool is Borges' brain?"