Modern Good Reads discussion
AUTHOR ZONE
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Quality control for indie authors... is there a way?
Christopher wrote: "M.G. wrote: "The difficulty lies in whose views would be respected by a wide audience. In traditional publishing, professional reviewers are paid because they have developed a reputation for giving..."Since most Indie-authors cannot afford $ 400 for an independant review, I think we should have volontary reviewers, reviewing books they wish to read anyway (thus it should not be a burden), reviewing books of authors they are not affiliated with in any way (no friends, no exchange of adulations). That might work.
Lilo wrote: "I am new at Modern Good Reads and have just stumbled upon your indie quality discussion. It has hit a nerve with me.I think, however, we should clearly separate grammar/punctuation (and possibly ..."
I agree 100%
Absolutely reviewers should separate grammar/punctuation from other qualities being reviewed because those things are hugely important to some readers and not important at all to others.
I think there should be a charge for a QA stamp. And it should be fairly high. Most other services are charged, and this one would have the most value - certainly for the reader.
Mark wrote: "I think there should be a charge for a QA stamp. And it should be fairly high. Most other services are charged, and this one would have the most value - certainly for the reader."I don't agree. I don't want the best President money can buy. So I wouldn't want the best QA stamp money could buy. Besides, most indie-authors couldn't afford it.
Florence wrote: "Absolutely reviewers should separate grammar/punctuation from other qualities being reviewed because those things are hugely important to some readers and not important at all to others."And don't forget, correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation can be purchased with editing services. While I really appreciate a book with correct spelling, grammar and punctuation (in this order), I would not vote thumbs down on a great book that needs a good editor.
Lilo, that's what I was trying to say. You said it much better. I dislike poor grammar, etc, but a good read is more important. So I'd want to be warned about those things but I also want to know what the book would be like if those things weren't being judged.
Mark wrote: "I think there should be a charge for a QA stamp. And it should be fairly high. Most other services are charged, and this one would have the most value - certainly for the reader."Mark, what's your reasoning? I can't see any advantage to making authors or readers pay for a QA stamp.
@ Richard---Bwahahahahaha!BTW: I love coffee.
I have a question for all grammarians in this group:When studying 8 grammar books and countless grammar websites in order to get my manuscript (first to be published in English) in decent shape, I accidently came across one subject.
The author wrote that "Hi" and "name" needs a comma in between the "hi" and the "name", such as, for instance: "Hi, Chris," as this is a different sentence structure than "Dear Chris,". Taking from my modest knowledge of English grammar, I agree. So I always wrote "Hi, name" while just about everybody else writes "Hi name,"
I don't want to be popier than the pope, but I had been so proud to understand ONE English punctuation rule. English punctuation remains foggy to me even after studying 8 (not very good) grammar books and uncountable (not much better) websites.
Native English authors with good grammar/punctuation knowledge, please HELP!
I'm a native English speaker. But I tested out of grammar way back when so I never learned the rules, I just happened to have been raised in a family that used normally good English. And I never say hi with a comma because I never thought of doing so.
Whenever you're addressing a person by name or title (as in Dad or King) the name or title is always set off by commas.If you're using the person's name not in direct address, then it isn't.
EX: "Hi, Dad, how are you?"
"Hi, Bob, how are you?"
"Hi, how are you, Bob?"
"Hi, how are you, Bob. Have you seen Sally?"
Questions?
C.E. wrote: "One way to go about this would be to create some sort of seal with an accreditation panel, such as "Modern Good Reads Approved Self Published Author" ; You would then need to get a group of volunte..."C.E. wrote: "One way to go about this would be to create some sort of seal with an accreditation panel, such as "Modern Good Reads Approved Self Published Author" ; You would then need to get a group of volunte..."
Alana ~ The Book Pimp wrote: "I personally have read many, many Indy authors/books, and have found diamonds in the rough and books so bad I almost hurled. I don't think awards will really 'do' anything because there isn't much..."
As a reader and a reviewer of Indie books, I think such a system would be an asset. There have been times I've been asked to review a book and I've been at a loss for words. What do you say when there is not a grammatically correct sentence to be found? Or no plot? Or new characters introduced mid-novel performing as if they've been in existence all along? Some people may be able to read a story with atrocious grammar and poor writing, but I am not one of those folks. If there are errors, it pulls me from the story. Writers who don't care enough about the craft to learn to do it properly are a poor reflection on the trade. It makes other Indie authors look bad. I would be glad to read FOR FREE on any panel designed to rate and/or approve those who take the time to do things right.
That is very well said. There is one particular novel that I've needed to review for several weeks, but it is simply unreadable. For authors who have a story, but the book simply needs editing or proofing, I'll email and ask politely if I've received the final version or if editing is ongoing (or something along those lines). With this book, I've been at a loss. Thank you, Richard. Now I can tell this person to consider pulling it until it's had serious "refurbishing" in order to avoid bad reviews.
It would seem that the problem of poor grammar is certainly not limited to indie books. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22...I can understand the frustration and certainly do not endorse poor quality in any form of art. Yet, if someone were to utter "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" I may have to drop my rocks and head for home.
it's just like the music industry. it'll sort itself out. long live indie \m/
Florence wrote: "I'm a native English speaker. But I tested out of grammar way back when so I never learned the rules, I just happened to have been raised in a family that used normally good English. And I never s..."Thank you, Florence, I know that common usage is without the comma. I just wonder if this is correct.
Jacqueline wrote: "Whenever you're addressing a person by name or title (as in Dad or King) the name or title is always set off by commas.If you're using the person's name not in direct address, then it isn't.
EX:..."
Thank you, Jaqueline,
So if I understand you right, the correct version would be, "Hi, Jaqueline," even if nothing else follows.
Now I have a second question: If I stick with "Hi, Jaqueline," would all those who casually write "Hi Jaqueline," (without the comma in between) consider me a stuck-up grammar-apostle who wants to correct them, or would they rather see me as I am, that is, a blind ESL chicken who is happy to have found one corn of English punctuation knowledge? What do you think?
Florence wrote: "Lilo, that's what I was trying to say. You said it much better. I dislike poor grammar, etc, but a good read is more important. So I'd want to be warned about those things but I also want to know ..."Hi(,) Florence, I agree with you 100%. My husband agrees, too, adding that they do the same with car reviews; they also separate engine performance, driving feel, and fuel efficiency from outer appearance.
As Belly said, Lilo. In informal conversation online it's not a big deal. But in a published, formal work, it's a very big deal. Also when ending any dialogue make sure to use proper punctuation.
"Hi, Jacqueline."by
"Hi, Jacqueline," I said. (he/she said)
"Hi, Jacqueline, how are you? " I asked. (dialogue tag)
"Hi, Jacqueline!" I said.
"Hi, Jacqueline!" I shook her hand. (dialogue beat)
"Hi, Jacqueline." I shook her hand.
"Hi, Jacqueline," I said as I shook her hand. (dialogue tag and beat)
Make sense? Use a comma between dialogue and dialogue tags because they're one sentence.
Use a period between dialogue beats because they're two sentences.
Or combine them in the last example to make one sentence.
Question marks and exclamation points are treated like either a comma or a period depending on the sentence structure.
Christopher wrote: "Sophia wrote: "I like the idea of a consortium that gives out some sort of seal. I believe that most of us could agree on some basic standards for how to rate books. We could even come up with more..."This sounds excellent. I'm excited to see where this is going as an indie author. Definitely keeping an eye on this for July so I can be one of the first to submit my book.
This is an interesting thread. While I appreciate good writing and proper grammar, I find it a little curious that a group of people who struck out on their own and rejected the traditional gatekeepers now want to set up a new system of gate-keeping.Who's going to check the checkers?
As an Indie Author with a degree in Journalism and many years of writing experience, I'm not interested in paying for a seal of approval. Trying to keep costs down, not add them! :-) If it's quick and easy, okay. But I'd hate to add one more thing that takes my focus away from writing.
Darlene wrote: "This is an interesting thread. While I appreciate good writing and proper grammar, I find it a little curious that a group of people who struck out on their own and rejected the traditional gatekee..."Good comment. My advice would be to act as professional as possible. There will always be poor books (even from traditional publishing houses) but good books do have a way of progressing.
Hi, Jaqueline, Florence, and Belly,Thank you all very much for your help. I really appreciate it. I have studied all your messages very carefully, and will study them again tomorrow, so that everything will stick.
Oh my, I am afraid my comment has one comma that doesn't belong there. I suppose it should read: "... I have studied all your messages very carefully and will study them again tomorrow, so that everything will stick." I have really been battling with English punctuation. It is so very different from German punctuation (and I must confess that I have never been perfect with German punctuation).
The discussion about grammar reminds me of something that happened to me. When I started writing I used a lot of commas. I noticed that when my work was published many, many, many commas had been removed. I asked the editor of our local newspaper why this had happened and was told that today many publications remove as many commas as possible because they take up too much space on the page and they also often take the reader away from the work being read. So I'm wondering if a rating system using stars to rate grammar from poor to excellent might be useful. It would be similar to the way stars are used to rate a book as a whole. Or should grammar be either right or wrong? (The previous sentence is an example. I often use sentence fragments. Would that be considered a writer's choice of style or would it be poor grammar?)
You are right. I didn't stop to think that a particular publishing house style might be a consideration. Dumb, huh? And yes e-pubbed books don't have to worry about space on a page. I especially like your comment about grammar never being completely right or wrong. And that's a dilemma.
Richard wrote: "Grammar is never right or wrong. It just ain't. Grammar is an amorphous, ever-changing sea of approximations. Grammar usage depends on many things -- dialect, education, location, social stratum, time-period, etc. Compare "Huck Finn" with "Villette"... (or a Dickens novel if you prefer)... Or Chaucer...? Oh, wait, is that even English? LOL.."Just about sums up my entire opinion on the matter. People forget that grammar (and often times spelling) depends greatly on where, when and how you were taught. I schooled in both the U.S. and Canada, while I also tutored with someone with a U.K. education. There are distinct differences, which has led me to have quite a unique writing dialect. Grammar is forever evolving as the spoken language does. This is something that I have found more than one editors or "grammar sticklers" has not taken into account.
Exactly, Richard and C.E. While good grammar is important for clarity, there is a point where it's just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. Fragments, for example, can be used quite effectively in strong writing when the writer has learned how to used them appropriately. They may be ungrammatical, but in creative writing they can be used to create impact in the right places. It's all about knowing when and how to break the 'rules' because really, rules kill art.
Lilo wrote: "I have a question for all grammarians in this group:When studying 8 grammar books and countless grammar websites in order to get my manuscript (first to be published in English) in decent shape, ..."
English...is one of the most bastardized languages there is. We have Brit. Oxford differ in more than one word from American English. Differences from Canada to New Zealand and the USA. Most are small tags on, honour or honor, photos & Fotos, sentences are more detailed in what many call Colonial English. Then we have the end result of India English. All have variation in grammar! Because of this even punctuation is different. I write in Canadian influx and must edit to Yankee style to be accepted by a publisher in the US. Change it to Oxford for the Brits. So I do absolutely depend on a editor, if you ask? Yes, English is my third language.
One more comment about English punctuation:Here we go already; the colon in the preceding sentence part is not by the rule (should, instead, read clumsily, "I want to make one more ..."), but I like it much better the "wrong" way.
I also don't understand the increasingly practised "discrimination" against commas. I cannot count the times I have found myself forced to read a sentence, written by a comma-pinching author (or mutilated by a comma-cutting editor) for the umptieth time until I understood its meaning, when one or two appropriately placed commas would have made reading so much easier. I don't recall ever having been hampered in my reading by too many commas.
And last not least: (I know this colon is again against the rules.) When will writers and editors be audacious enough to do away with placing commas and periods within quotation marks? These commas and periods can no longer fall onto the floor and get lost or damaged. When my English-reading German friends (who never learned English punctuation) read my manuscripts, they'll probably think I am an imbecile to punctuate like that. I have one English grammar book that graciously allows the comma/period outside the quotation marks when the quotation marks only serve the accentuation of a word or phrase. All other books don't mention any exceptions, and I have found that few writers have even heard of such an exception. How about "Writers of All English-Speaking Countries Unite" to fight this stupid rule? It might be more successful than the old communist slogan "Proletarians of All Countries Unite!" Who is watching over these rules anyway? An association of holy grammarians? Wherever these gatekeepers are, there should be some demonstrations in front of their gates.
@Lilo - The only time I place punctuation outside of quotation marks is when placing them inside could cause confusion. And I'll only do this when writing an e-mail with written instructions or technical documentation. In fiction, it's best to follow the established conventions in order to make your prose look clean and professorial.
Lilo wrote: "One more comment about English punctuation:Here we go already; the colon in the preceding sentence part is not by the rule (should, instead, read clumsily, "I want to make one more ..."), but I l..."
I guess I have to call you Liselotte, just to follow good German language. Maybe it is your German idea of correctness that has you annoyed at the small problems with colons, semicolons and punctuation. I myself fins it amusing to worry about the little things in life, the toilet paper rolling of the rear of the spool instead the front. These small points, the correction, of a manuscript are the job of the editor, does she miss it, well I wash my hands in innocence! If these commas are the biggest problem I ever experience as a writer, here it is, I am damn lucky! All countries English or otherwise have developed separate points in language languages. A Canadian editor used the word 'Gestalt' without ever knowing what it means...she argued valiantly to tell me it mean proper!
But the punctuation problem you experience, you cannot classify as 'Weltschmerz'!
@Erich - The toilet paper should always, always roll off the front of the roll. It's called 'best practice.' This is not a small matter!
Get back to the topic of quality control for Indie writers. If there would be a screening body most of the e-books would never make it to your tablet. Many of the so called publishing houses, like Create Space, Outskirt press are here to take a couple hundred bucks and never even read your manuscript. So if you support us Indie writers, buy books dirt cheap and sometimes even free, you have no cause to complain about the literary quality, just enjoy the story...I do!
Gregor wrote: "@Erich - The toilet paper should always, always roll off the front of the roll. It's called 'best practice.' This is not a small matter!"LOL< well said> LOL
Hi, Richard, Erich, and Gregor,Thank you so much for all your info.
And as for you, Erich, you call me Liselotte, and I'll throw my first POD book at you. As a matter of fact, the name on my birth certificate is, indeed, Liselotte. My mother had wanted to name me Lilo, but German bureaucracy (at the time) wouldn't allow this, giving my parents the choice to either name me Liselotte or Lilofe. Thank God, my parents opted for the former, as Lilofe is the name of the water nymph in a classical ballad. With the name in the birth certificate appearing on all school report cards, I would have been the laughing stock of my peers, had my parents opted for the latter.
Erich wrote: "Get back to the topic of quality control for Indie writers. If there would be a screening body most of the e-books would never make it to your tablet. Many of the so called publishing houses, like ..."First off, I'm not talking about shutting anyone out from publishing. Let the 12 year olds publish away! I'm talking about some neutral body providing potential readers who care about quality a fast way to see which books make the cut and which don't.
People have every right to complain about quality, if it matters to them. If it doesn't, good for them, they've got about 3 millions more books to enjoy than I do. I cannot abide books with low quality writing. To me, it's a sign of laziness and arrogance on the part of a writer who hasn't taken the time to educate him/herself in the craft that means so much to me. Do I make mistakes? Of course! But I've gone out of my way to find beta readers who help me nail them. And no excuses about how hard it is to find betas and how you can't afford an editor. This is the age of the internet. Go on AbsoluteWrite.com's forum and sign up for the beta reading exchange (it's free). Don't tell me you don't have time to beta for other people, that's just back to being lazy and arrogant again. [/rant]
Sorry. I feel strongly about this. Not everyone does, and that's their right. But they can just opt out of the whole seal-of-approval thing, then. I'll opt in.
@Sophia, while I agree with you in theory and in passion, for I strive to maintain high quality writing myself, it's this --> some neutral body that makes me nervous. There is no such thing as a neutral body. Eventually either money, emotions, connections or some other commodity is exchanged and the very establishment true Indies run from we become. Unless all we're interested in is becoming the establishment?
Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Who will govern the neutral body to make sure they're fairly judging books that 'make the cut' and those who don't?
Who decides?
Do we truly require a seal-of-approval to announce who is better than whom?
Doesn't the market already do that?
I believe there was a self publishing blog recently that started something like this, but unfortunately I can't find it right now!I suspect more and more will crop up, and there is merit in the idea, up to a point. (Costs too much for me though, I'd rather save my money for editing!)
Reviews do server this purpose up to a point. Except that they can often be abused. I make sure I look at reviews, how well the blurb is written, then the sample chapters. Of course, books still do get through, but not many.
Rinelle wrote: "I believe there was a self publishing blog recently that started something like this, but unfortunately I can't find it right now!I suspect more and more will crop up, and there is merit in the i..."
You have the gist of the problem, follow the true and tried writers you believe in, but then again some may slip from their pedestal. How do you rate ten million books? You would need a force equal to the invasion army of the Greek landing at Troy and probably never finish examining the books in the pipeline! I read them and smile or I read them and weep, but I look at the story not at the commas, I do trust my instinct and have been wrong in my likes, but in the beginning not everyone liked the 'Brothers Grimm'! Even the Bible was rewritten 900 times to reach todays grammar.
Lilo wrote: "Hi, Richard, Erich, and Gregor,Thank you so much for all your info.
And as for you, Erich, you call me Liselotte, and I'll throw my first POD book at you. As a matter of fact, the name on my bi..."
I ...LOL...of course knew of the German Aryan concept of naming. Lilo sounds to Italian. Ich bin unter Den Germanen aufgewachsen. I am sure you can read this, so I took a stab at the name. I do not review books because of the whole concept of likes or dislikes. I may come off arrogant, if I dislike a book, or idiotic if I like one just because the story resonates with me.
I very, absolutely, definitely believe in the editorial process. There are many, very good editors right here on these pages, Bz Hercules, Patti Roberts and others! You pay a cheap price to have your book reviewed, fixed, edited and formatted, it is the first step to a marketable book!
This discussion has done one thing for me. I'm just starting to review books and now I know how I want to do it. With a double rating system, one part for grammar, etc, and one for content. The part for the grammar will have an explanation as to why I thought it deserved whatever rating I gave it. 'Typos.' 'English usage could be better.' 'Contains slang.' 'Occasional incorrect usage of words.' Or whatever I noticed about the book that took me away from the story. I'm not saying this is the way reviews should be done but until something better comes along, I'll use it. It'll be better than nothing. Though, of course, I'll still keep looking for something better.
Jacqueline wrote: "Doesn't the market already do that?"In a word, no.
The market is made up of a majority of people who think that anyone who cares about grammar and such is an extremist. And most of them don't even think about the question at all, probably. Look at massive bestsellers like Amanda Hocking's novels, which are widely known for their weak editing, or, again, 50 Shades. I've recently checked out some excerpts, and if the book was solely evaluated on the quality of its writing, its author would not be a multimillionaire. Of course, 50 Shades isn't indie anyway, so it's an example of how even books that have picked up by a publisher can be flawed. Most people read books for reasons other than writing quality. It sets my teeth on edge, but it's true.
So I suppose I shouldn't care about bad quality books, since most people won't notice the difference (at least of those that are only moderately flawed), but I do. I guess what I really want is to poke and prod authors into reading some writing manuals and taking some writing classes and joining some writing groups, etc. I feel like it's an insult to the craft to crank out badly flawed novel after badly flawed novel and never strive for improvement. I'd like readers to see upfront: This author doesn't care enough to work for the seal. This author does.
And people keep saying things about how it would be too expensive, and that confuses me. I'm not in favor of paying anyone to give me a seal. A seal that costs money doesn't reveal who is working hard at the craft and drawing on resources like beta readers. It reveals who can afford to buy a seal. Personally, I'm broke, so that would count me out.
You are a Indie writer, you fall into a cauldron of 100000 or more. You consider yourself good or great and you want to sell your books, right? Many of us consider their writing a craft, few indeed are craftsmen. But so what, let them live their dream, who are you to demand a beginner to rise to the top of the boil ? If you cannot live with the spelling in a particular book, by a particular writer, don't buy it don't read it, lay it aside. I of course am if the opinion everything is rated very few are outright fails. Were you such a 'Wunderkind' and never made mistakes? The good for you, but still you are not entitled to pass judgement on others. You want others to buy instruction manuals and to educate themselves, you are so superior? Writing is a personal choice of many, as many will tell you it is to share a story. Do not dismiss them so easy, one time a very good author told me, ..."Once they put their nose where I pissed fifty years ago, I will allow them to critique me, until then get the fuck out of my way!....
Lilo wrote: "I am new at Modern Good Reads and have just stumbled upon your indie quality discussion. It has hit a nerve with me.I think, however, we should clearly separate grammar/punctuation (and possibly ..."
Hi Lilo, Your pain at reviewing "less than worthy" books for your friends strikes a cord. I write, I publish, I review. The reviews that I post on Amazon, Goodreads, etc. have a rating of 4 stars or above. Those reviews that have a rating of 3 stars or less go back to the author via private email with my comments as to why I didn't like their book. It is up to them to re-edit, re-write, remove ... whatever.
Believe me, this is a thankless task and I have lost friendships and been flamed to the point of blocking an email address. However, I can sleep at night. When someone gives you a book to review and asks for your "honest" opinion you give it. If your review is less than praiseworthy, you give it back to the author with a "sorry, didn't like it." If it is wonderful, you post it and everyone celebrates.
That's my solution.
Patricia Knight
Erotic Romance Author/Editor
@Sophie- I agree with you that books and writing like 50 Shades are horrendous. I couldn't get past the first chapter when I sampled it, yet when I debated this with friends it was a hot issue. The only friend that agreed with me was an Lit. Major who at one time wanted to be an editor. But she read all three books and said that she had enjoyed them despite their writing flaws. Eventually I learned to let the whole issue go. I mean... they're books. Who cares?When I asked 'doesn't the market do that?' I meant the whole point of being Indie is that we don't want to be part of the old literary establishment. Part of the old way of doing things is judging books and writers by the very things you're talking about. Being Indie means we allow the public decide who succeeds buy how they spend their money.
Do I think strong grammar, plotting and characterization is important? Absolutely.
Does every reader think that? No. To them story takes precedent.
While I can judge writing and books by what I've been trained to consider good style, etc, and while I prefer to write and read books of a higher caliber, not everyone feels this way.
Perhaps it is an insult to the craft to crank out badly written novels and never strive for improvement, but those who don't care about such things will continue not caring and those who do won't bother reading such books. Last I heard, the average reading level of America ranges from 4th-6th grade.
Think about that. The majority of Americans read at a 4th+ grade level. Most of the posts in this thread are written at a high school level or greater. Assume the majority of books were written at a high school level or greater. It's no wonder most Americans wouldn't read for pleasure. At a 4th grade level, it's no wonder many readers and self-published authors have such low standards. They probably don't even realize how flawed they are.
Should you care about bad quality books? That's entirely up to you.
I say the market will sort itself out. How is a small group or groups supposed to vet hundreds of thousands of books? And if there is no payment for the seal of approval, who's going to volunteer so much time to this? I've sampled many of the new award-winning Indies from many sites (like Amazon) and frankly, they're usually boring.
When I see bad books I cringe. But I've seen bad books long before self-publishing. Now they're just more of them.
I guess what I really want is to poke and prod authors into reading some writing manuals and taking some writing classes and joining some writing groups, etc.
I get that, but you can't control other people or the market as a whole. Free market and freedom means that crap is allowed to be sold next to quality. This happens with every product. The sooner everyone gets their head around this and does what they can to distinguish themselves and help fellow authors when opportunities arise, then the sooner we can present a united, professional front rather then an Us vs Them we're better quality self-published writers then THEY are.
@Richard- Exactly! If you could just lower your writing standards, then you'd surpass E.L. James!
Count me in. :)