In which members discuss the fine art of discussing

[Jonathan]

Fellow Pickwickians! This is the place where we shall meet to discuss how the threads are to be handled; whether or not we have a poll in the future to decide the matter, this thread will still allow us to work out possible solutions; although, at the present time, it does look like there will be no more polls on threads, so if you find that you want another poll, please make sure that you vote and make your voice heard; this reminder, of course, is to aid and abet the Democratic and Pickwickian processes in which we are engaged in to help decide these matters.

[Everyman]

Adam wrote: "Shall we have another poll on whether to conduct a poll?"

Not again! [g]

[Everyman]

I have elsewhere expressed my views that the structure of the discussions has much to do with the philosophy of the group.

Of course, we are all here because we want to read these books, enjoy them, and share thoughts about them. But there can be different emphases in this.

If the primary emphasis is to be on each member reading and enjoying the books, I think that works fine with people reading at their own pace and not trying to keep together as a group, and it's fine to post all the chapter threads up front.

If the primary emphasis is on discussing and digging into the text as a group for group understanding, I think that works better when the reading is more structured and slower and the chapters or discussions are posted according to an announced schedule which is slow enough to allow for adequate time for considering, contemplating, and discussing.

As to the appropriate pace of reading, that's of course up to each individual, but I think it's instructive to keep in mind that for the original readers their reading experience stretched out over many months or even years. The various installments were a popular topic of discussion of the salons, dinner parties, and long evenings where, absent radio, TV, records, tapes, and CDs, ipods, the Internet, and the like, people actually spent time talking (gasp!). Dickens certainly didn't expect his initial audiences to rush through these works in two or three weeks!

[Jonathan]

Everyman wrote: "I think it's instructive to keep in mind that for the original readers their reading experience stretched out over many months or even years."

I think 6+ weeks is reasonable for Oliver Twist. This is one of Dickens shortest novels. My introduction said that these episodes were about 9,000 words each, whereas Pickwick's were twice as long. We are discussing it in some depth and covering a lot of the smaller details as well as the historical era and the issues important (and still so nowadays) at that time. I don't know how everyone else feels, but this is pretty much what I had in mind.

Taking into consideration our earlier discussion on the threads, in which several members participated, I have decided that we should open up the threads as we reach that part of the book, according to the schedule. This provides more of a structured conversation. My main reason is that I feel this is just one long discussion spread out over many different threads in order to prevent spoilers for those who are new or behind schedule. Posting them all at once would likely start about 15 different discussions and end in some kind of chaotic mayhem, hard for members to follow. At least, this is how I feel after much discussion and deliberation on our various options. I would like to hear everyone else's opinion though. If there are different viewpoints, perhaps we can try the next one the alternative way and see what everyone thinks after we've tried them both.

[Martha]

Adam wrote: "I haven't a clue what the best way to discuss a book might be. I'm just happy to share the experiences with others who have visited the same imaginary worlds."

I feel the same as Adam. I love reading the posts and hope to participate if I can get through some other books soon.

[Jonathan]

Martha wrote: " I love reading the posts and hope to participate if I can get through some other books soon. "

We look forward to hearing from you; from your picture, it does look like you have a few books to read.

[Tristram]

Everyman wrote: "Adam wrote: "Shall we have another poll on whether to conduct a poll?"

Not again! [g]"

Why, this is a bit like Rawhide: Polling, polling, polling ...

[Martha]

Jonathan wrote: "Martha wrote: " I love reading the posts and hope to participate if I can get through some other books soon. "

We look forward to hearing from you; from your picture, it does look like you have a ..."

Sadly, my bookcase is not that neat anymore ... books on top of books, in front of books, stacked on the floor beside the bookcase. When my son moved back in with us last fall, he looked around and said 'That's a lot of books'. It's not that he hadn't been there lately, but just hadn't realized how many I have. I was moving my things out of a room so he could have a living room of his own. There are still some books in his living room, but I have hopes of getting them all out soon. Where to put them is the real problem. ~sigh~

[Jonathan]

Fellow Pickwickians, I would like to open a discussion here, which goes right along with the title of this folder, to gather everyone's input and ideas on the way that our group reads are setup and to gain some insight and suggestions on how we can, as a group, improve the quality of the feedback and the quantity of the participants taking part in our group discussions.

When this group was started a couple of months ago, we, obviously, started from scratch. We have quickly grown to 84 members. However, and notwithstanding, our first two group discussions have started well, but have then bogged down terribly. What can we do to improve our group disscussions?

I think the solution begins with a thorough analysis of the problem. First of all, we definitely need more participants in order to have a better discussion. With only three or four people making observations the discussions tend to stick to one or two main points, while, if we had ten or more active participants, we would likely get additional points of view which would tend to open up new directions which the talk could take. If, for instance, you are following this group, but not participating in the Group Reads and Discussions, can you please tell us why. If there is something we can do to draw in more readers, then I think the talks will go better. Please place your comments and suggestions here in this topic. Thank you all for you much-valued interest in this group and I hope we have a bright future discussing one of the greatest authors who ever lived.

[Julie]

I really wish I could participate in all group reads that interest me in all the groups I am in, but it is not even close to being possible. I am actually reading another Dickens right now with another group, so I doubt I will participate in your next one, but I plan on keeping an eye on things and joining in on a read when the timing is right.

[Cleo]

Basically I am in the same position as Julie; I want to participate but it doesn't look feasible at this point.

I managed to make it half way through The Pickwick Papers and one-quarter of the way through Oliver Twist but stalled due to other reads and the fact that at that point, I was way behind. I do have Nicholas Nickleby on my reading table and am going to try to get caught up with everything over the summer but I can't make any promises. While the summer will leave lots of time for reading, I will also have limited internet access so even if I get up-to-date, my posts might be sporatic.

I think, with a little time, the group will become more active. You already have excellent core members (and moderator) who are participating and their insightful comments are sure to draw others to the group. I hope to be one of those who can become more committed at a later date!

[Tristram]

Hello Jonathan,

hello everybody,

first of all I'd like to thank Jonathan for bringing up this sore point and trying to amend it, and I would also want to add that the lack of participation is hardly due to the moderator since Jonathan keeps the threads arranged in an orderly way (quite a lot more so than in other groups I've looked into) thus making it easy for everyone to find immediate access. What is more, he endeavours to keep discussions alive by asking opinions and thought-provoking questions. Plus I have always found him open to feedback and constructive suggestions.

What might be a drawback - although I would not make a point of it - is Jonathan's decision to follow the chronological order of Dickens's works. This might put off people who want to start with the juicy bits, such as David Copperfield or Great Expectations, but then on the other hand, you can never work out an agenda that suits everybody's current interest. And what can be said in favour of the chronological order is that it surely enhances our understanding of Dickens's development as a writer, and maybe also as a person.

What seems to be the case is that all of us, being literature aficionados through and through, are tempted to join a great many discussion groups, which disables us from reading all that is on the agenda in every single group. Therefore, there are probably only about 5 people in this group who are actually reading OT at the moment.

Here's my modest proposal then: Concentrate on a few groups and arrange part of your private reading plans with a view to what is on the respective agendas. I was not too keen on reading OT, and I'm definitely not too keen on reading NN, though I'm waiting impatiently for Dombey and Son and Martin Chuzzelwit, but for the sake of the group I re-arranged part of my reading plans. Reading a book, especially one by so gifted and rich an author as the Inimitable, in a group is quite a mind-expanding adventure - I am very much enjoying my exchanges with Jonathan and Everyman here -, but if you want to go on a roller coaster ride you normally buy a ticket ;-/

I hope I'm not coming over as too clever-cloggsy, but that's my opinion on it all.

[Jonathan]

I was not too keen on reading as Oliver Twist again either. It was and still is my least favorite Dickens, but I am finding it mildly enjoyable the second time through.

Nine people so far have voted that they plan in participating in the next read. I am just trying to navigate the rough and tough terrain of starting a group from scratch and I appreciate so much everyone's insight and help. You guys are the best!

[Jonathan]

Also, I understand what it is like to be bogged down with too many books to read and too many groups to follow. Right now, I am trying to keep up with like 8 or 9; only skipping Group Reads which I have already read. I find that I tend to do more reading and less discussing due to the workload. I guess we should all be thankful to have too many wonderful books to choose from instead of too few!

[Cleo]

Tristram wrote: "What might be a drawback - although I would not make a point of it - is Jonathan's decision to follow the chronological order of Dickens's works. ..."

I'm glad you brought up this point, Tristram. There is another group who is doing a chronological reading of Dickens' works and they have good participation. Perhaps there is some problem with the overlap. I'm reading along with this other group but joined late starting with Martin Chuzzlewit. I notice there are members in this group (The Pickwick Club) who are also participating in the Dickens project in the other group, so perhaps part of the problem in this case is that they do not want to read books that they have already read. Also, having the two groups covering the same material does split the attention members can give if they belong to both ~~~~ I would assume they would choose to participate in one group at a time.

In my case, I'm actually looking forward to this group reading some of the Dickens that I've already read so it will make it easier for me to be part of the Pickwickians!

And, I completely agree, Tristram ........ Jonathan has been a great moderator.

[Lucy]

I am actually quite happy with the chronological reading order. I am concurrently working through several biographies of Dickens, and this has primed my anticipation for how the writing and construction of the novels will evolve--a fresh perspective, even if one has read a number of the most celebrated of his works before. I have not joined any other Dickens reads, since I plan to keep in step with this one. Of course, I am reading many other things, but I want the thick novel I pull out to be the current Dickens we're tackling.

I hope to participate more actively in coming weeks. A major work deadline only allowed reading time, with not much leftover for any fruitful written offerings from me. I intend to offer more in the discussions from now on. I have enjoyed reading Oliver Twist very much indeed, so much so, in fact, that the many improbable "coincidences" that move the plot along have not bothered me. Given the license of the fictional world, I am pretty content simply to mark its particular features as Dickens chooses to orchestrate them. I may be alone in this, but I have no trouble liking Oliver, as Dickens writes him (not as the film musical portrays him), and Dickens' own audience may have found as much to admire as to pity about him.

The moderator's opening remarks have stimulated some fascinating discussions. I hope we will keep returning to questions of narrative genre, since Dickens manages to enact several (picaresque, detective story, bildungsroman, fable, ghost story, myth, and more) to varying degrees across his whole output. I also want to discuss the issue of flat and round characters (which isn't as simple as it might seem!) and the superabundance of characters--the way the novels are "crowded" (to use E.K. Brown's term) with more people and incidents than are fundamentally "necessary" to tell the story. I think it is also worth considering how much Dickens "controls" the reader's interpretation of both character and theme:(a) does he try to leave little room for ambiguous readings (compared with authors who leave certain moral interpretations open), and (b) does he succeed at this, or fail, inevitably, at exercising his iron grip on our sentiments? Is this a feature of his narrative itself, or only due to the gulf in time, taste, and society?

I also would enjoy discussions that invite readers simply to share favorite scenes, passages, humor, imagery, or peculiarities of character that struck them in the sections we are concentrating on. (I imagine this was easier with Pickwick--especially for the humor!) Others can then concur or offer different perspectives on them, but it may be enough to stimulate discussion to just ask simple questions about what we are appreciating about the novels as we read along. I also think it would be fine to offer more tidbits from critics in the main discussion of sections, rather than leaving them to a separate thread.

Thanks for indulging this brainstorming! And thanks especially for your persistence in ferreting out our opinions!

[Jonathan]

Kim, welcome to the Pickwick Club, I think I speak for the rest of us when I say we look forward to hearing more from you, as strange as we may find you!

[Tristram]

Lucy wrote: "I am actually quite happy with the chronological reading order. I am concurrently working through several biographies of Dickens, and this has primed my anticipation for how the writing and constru..."

I would definitely find it very interesting to take a closer look at some of the topics that you mentioned, Lucy. The lavish use of personnel in the average Dickens novel is something that makes Dickens special, although I have also found this with Trollope or Zola.

Another intriguing question is how firmly Dickens controls his readers' interpretation of facts. Reading Oliver Twist I find he holds a rather tight grasp, when e.g. in Chapter 42 he even tells us why Noah lets Charlotte carry the stolen money. I think we would have been able to guess his motives without the author's kind intervention. But then there are so many little details which help characterize Noah and his relationship with Charlotte and which are left for the reader to discover that it would be unfair to classify Dickens as an obtrusive narrator.

I think the more of his novels we discuss here, the more we will be able to deal with questions like those brought up by you, and this is another advantage of our group.

So here's to us Pickwickians!

[Tristram]

Kim wrote: "Hello everyone! I just joined yesterday. This is my first group. You will probably find me a very strange person (I know this because most people who actually know me do)!!

I love Dickens. But..."

Welcome, Kim! As to your reading habits, I know exactly how you feel. With the odd exception I hardly ever venture beyound 1930 or older, and if that makes you a strange person, why then it seems you are sinning in good company ;-)

[Jonathan]

Tristram wrote: "in Chapter 42 he even tells us why Noah lets Charlotte carry the stolen money. I think we would have been able to guess his motives without the author's kind intervention. "

It is funny, but in response to Lucy's comment, as I was reading this chapter tonight, I marked that very same passage, and put in my notes to bring this up in discussion as a shred of evidence that, at least at times, Dickens tends to lay it on thick in order to sway his audiences one way or another. Good find!

In his later works, besides the fact that he paints his female heroines a little too good to be true, as I think of Lucie Mannette, he does apply a subtler approach. Obviously, if he wants you to like a character, he makes them perfect, like Lucie. And, if he wants you to hate them, he makes them pure evil, like Sikes, Fagin, or Pecksniff (who just kept sinking lower and lower on the scale of deviousness, throughout Martin Chuzzlewit). It is the in-between characters that I enjoy so much; those that have a few flaws in juxtaposition to a few virtues.

[Martha]

I'm still slogging through Little Dorrit and haven't felt that I could pick up another Dickens until I have finished this one. Part of the problem is that I read multiple books at a time. LD has just not grabbed me like others have, but I am determined to finish. Also, recently we've taken a mini-vacation with kids & grandkids, had a Special Olympics state tournament (I'm a coach of many & parent of one athlete) & I've FINALLY decided to retire the end of this month. So my participation may pick up after July 1. I certainly hope so. I love Dickens' Bleak House and A Christmas Carol. I will really try to participate in NN ... it might work out once I'm not spending 45 hrs per week on a job. :-) I don't belong to any other strictly Dickens groups & do really like the set up of this group, Jonathan's moderating skills and the comments of the members!! Sorry I don't let you know more often how I appreciate all of you.

[Jonathan]

Kim wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Fellow Pickwickians, I would like to open a discussion here, which goes right along with the title of this folder, to gather everyone's input and ideas on the way that our group re..."

Hi, Kim. I am not sure what you mean as to not being able to find whether or not we have finished Oliver Twist. On my personal shelf it has been marked read since I joined GR, and I just finished it again this week for our discussion. Of course, we want you to read our comments and feedback, but we also value your input as well. Even a little observation such as you made about Mr. Minns is interesting to read, and there's a good chance that it could spark a bigger, more colorful discussion as one idea tends to lead to another.

As for Oliver Twist, all of the discussion folders are up, and I posted the illustrations to help provoke discussion. For those who have read the book in the past, and it has been awhile, the illustrations work as a good trigger to one's memory for the purposes of discussion.

And, everyone, please remember, any comments you have are welcome. Even if you simply say something like, "I didn't like the book; the author is too long-winded." Perhaps, we will then have a long discussion on why it took Victorian Authors so many words to get their point across. Then, we will have a poll on it. We are here to make observations. That's what Pickwickians do. We are not philosophers. We are observers.

Finally, I have resolved to determine that computers and the internet are the necessary evils if modern society. Good day!

[Jonathan]

Kim wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Fellow Pickwickians, I would like to open a discussion here, which goes right along with the title of this folder, to gather everyone's input and ideas on the way that our group re..."

Hi, Kim. I am not sure what you mean as to not being able to find whether or not we have finished Oliver Twist. On my personal shelf it has been marked read since I joined GR, and I just finished it again this week for our discussion. Of course, we want you to read our comments and feedback, but we also value your input as well. Even a little observation such as you made about Mr. Minns is interesting to read, and there's a good chance that it could spark a bigger, more colorful discussion as one idea tends to lead to another.

As for Oliver Twist, all of the discussion folders are up, and I posted the illustrations to help provoke discussion. For those who have read the book in the past, and it has been awhile, the illustrations work as a good trigger to one's memory for the purposes of discussion.

And, everyone, please remember, any comments you have are welcome. Even if you simply say something like, "I didn't like the book; the author is too long-winded." Perhaps, we will then have a long discussion on why it took Victorian Authors so many words to get their point across. Then, we will have a poll on it. We are here to make observations. That's what Pickwickians do. We are not philosophers. We are observers.

Finally, I have resolved to determine that computers and the internet are the necessary evils if modern society. Good day!

[Jonathan]

Kim wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Fellow Pickwickians, I would like to open a discussion here, which goes right along with the title of this folder, to gather everyone's input and ideas on the way that our group re..."

Hi, Kim. I am not sure what you mean as to not being able to find whether or not we have finished Oliver Twist. On my personal shelf it has been marked read since I joined GR, and I just finished it again this week for our discussion. Of course, we want you to read our comments and feedback, but we also value your input as well. Even a little observation such as you made about Mr. Minns is interesting to read, and there's a good chance that it could spark a bigger, more colorful discussion as one idea tends to lead to another.

As for Oliver Twist, all of the discussion folders are up, and I posted the illustrations to help provoke discussion. For those who have read the book in the past, and it has been awhile, the illustrations work as a good trigger to one's memory for the purposes of discussion.

And, everyone, please remember, any comments you have are welcome. Even if you simply say something like, "I didn't like the book; the author is too long-winded." Perhaps, we will then have a long discussion on why it took Victorian Authors so many words to get their point across. Then, we will have a poll on it. We are here to make observations. That's what Pickwickians do. We are not philosophers. We are observers.

Finally, I have resolved to determine that computers and the internet are the necessary evi
ls if modern society. Good day!

[Everyman]

Kim wrote: "Oh, and can everyone in the group read what I type? If they can I sort of feel sorry for them having to mill through all this!! "

Yes we can, and au contraire, it was no mill at all, but a pleasure.