The Crying of Lot 49 - discussion

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

This is the OFFICIAL thread for discussion of May's book. Do not be fooled by imitators!

[Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm]

Anyone want to lay odds on my finding which box I packed this book in before we're supposed to talk about it?

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

Dave wrote: "Anyone want to lay odds on my finding which box I packed this book in before we're supposed to talk about it?"

Hopefully you'll find it early enough to read it before we talk about it!

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

I just read the 1st chapter this afternoon and really like it. It reminds me of Vonnegut channeling Joyce or something.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

Yoyodyne?! That takes me back to '84 and Buckaroo Banzai. Interesting to see where they got the name.

Yoyodyne employees:
John Barnett
John Bigboote
John Camp
John Careful Walker
John Chief Crier
John Cooper
John Coyote
John Edwards
John Fish
John Fledgling
John Gomez
John Grim
John Guardian
John Icicle Boy
John Jones
John Joseph
John Kim Chi
John Lee
John Littlejohn
John Many Jars
John Milton
John Mud Head
John Nephew
John Nolan
John O'Connor
John Omar
John Parrot
John Rajeesh
John Ready to Fly
John Repeat Dance
John Roberts
John Scott
John Smallberries
John Starbird
John Take Cover
John Thorny Stick
John Two Horns
John Whorfin
John Wood
John Wright
John Ya Ya

[Jim]

"BigbooTAY."
Didn't realize the SCOTUS Chief Justice was a Yoyodyne guy. And the Martian Manhunter. Both make sense, though.

[Jim]

Starting the book this weekend. Is this the right thread?

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

You know it is.

San Narciso is clearly a modernized Narcissus and that + Echo Courts = the myth of Echo & Narcissus. Curious to see if this factors in to the story.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

Judging by the last few posts, I am not going to know what the fuck is going on when I read this.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

You'll be fine. Start it. It's good.

[Jeppe]

+1

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

Halfway through and I'm feeling the need for another reading. So far, it's cryptic, satirical, ominous, and surreal. I like all of those things.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

If the post office is a mechanism for government control, what does it mean that the post office has been supplanted in great measure by other methods of mail delivery now? (to say nothing of digital conveyance)

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

Jason wrote: "If the post office is a mechanism for government control, what does it mean that the post office has been supplanted in great measure by other methods of mail delivery now?"

The corporate state, bro. Don't get me started.

[Jim]

Jason wrote: "If the post office is a mechanism for government control, what does it mean that the post office has been supplanted in great measure by other methods of mail delivery now?"
If I understand your premise, I'd say that paranoia is infinitely transferrable. Any institution could serve as a system of control (nod to William S. Burroughs).
Man, I wish we at the post office had any control over our customers. That'd be sweet.

Matt wrote: "The corporate state, bro. Don't get me started. "
Preach.

[Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm]

Did they ever make a movie of this? Because I'm apparently no longer able to read anything without my mind wandering all over the place to all the things I want to get done around the house.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

Dave wrote: "I'm apparently no longer able to read anything without my mind wandering all over the place to all the things I want to get done around the house."

Can you stick it out to the 100th episode before leaving the show? That would be a nice, round number.

[Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm]

Sorry, my mind wandered again while I was reading your comment. You were saying?

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

Wherein we all try to remember what we thought about Thomas Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49, debate the definition of pedophilia, discuss semantics, unravel conspiracies, and flounder. Oh, the floundering.

OUTRO: Lightning Strikes the Postman by The Flaming Lips

http://bookhouseboyspodcast.podomatic...

[Jim]

Jason wrote: "Wherein we all try to remember what we thought about Thomas Pynchon's The Crying of Lot 49, debate the definition of pedophilia, discuss semantics, unravel conspiracies, and flounder. Oh, the floundering."

The BBoys ponder the ponderously unponderable. Plus, Dave holds forth on home repair. Thanks in advance for the discussion, fellas.
I'm about 90% through the book. I've never dropped a tab of bad acid, but if I had, I imagine this is what it would feel like. I'm very disoriented, the sense of what's happening seems just outside my grasp.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

I like that quality of it. Like a hallucination on the periphery of your field of vision. When you look directly at it, it dissipates.

[Robert]

Another quality joint, gentlemen, and yes, it was during our recording that Dave and Matt qualified their definition of pedophilia.

[Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm]

You can never be too precise when it comes to kiddie-diddlin'.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

I did a google search for "Pynchon pedophilia" and two things hit me immediately. First, that our recent show is the second highest result, and second, that Gravity Rainbow apparently has an adult character (Slothrop) putting the moves on an 11 year old girl (Bianca) and receiving an "enthusiastic" response.

At some point, arguments about relative degrees of pedophilia start to sound, to me, like allowances for those of lesser degree (if you subscribe to the idea that there are degrees in the first place), like excusing someone for stealing a million dollars because there's someone else who stole ten million.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

Jason wrote: "At some point, arguments about relative degrees of pedophilia start to sound, to me, like allowances for those of lesser degree"

Yes, THAT'S what it is. Oy.

[Dave Alluisi, Evolution of the Arm]

Jason wrote: "At some point, arguments about relative degrees of pedophilia start to sound, to me, like allowances for those of lesser degree (if you subscribe to the idea that there are degrees in the first place), like excusing someone for stealing a million dollars because there's someone else who stole ten million. "


Yeahhhh...it's more about accuracy, especially where a word with that kind of weight is being used. Pedophilia is, by definition, a sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Fifteen isn't prepubescent, was my only point. In fact, one can be considered a pedophile for having a sexual attraction to children starting at the age of sixteen. I certainly never said Mucho wasn't creepy, sleazy, gross, immoral, or any of that, but he was not, by definition, a pedophile.

You are correct that there are no "relative degrees" of pedophilia, but you are incorrect about the qualifying age range. An adult sleeping with a fifteen-year-old is immoral because adults can talk young, emotionally vulnerable and inexperienced teens into doing things they may later really regret. This is statutory rape, which is NOT pedophilia--in fact, statutory rape can apply to having sex with mentally challenged adults. It's generally considered taking advantage of a sexually mature but mentally immature or incapable person.

Eleven, on the other hand, is definitely prepubescent, so the Gravity's Rainbow scene sounds like it would qualify. I'd have to read it before deciding whether Pynchon was advocating for such a thing, though.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

As I mentioned on the show, pedophilia is brought up multiple times, once by a character who sings about dating an eight year old. Afterwards, Serge, the character in question, "admitted the bit about the eight-year-old was so far only imaginary, but that he was hanging diligently around playgrounds and should have some news for them any day." Yuck.

So, my point orignally was that underage sex is apparently a preoccupation of many of Pynchon's characters, and that he has a rather casual way of talking about it. I'm not saying he's endorsing pedophilia, or statutory rape, but he doesn't exactly condemn it, either.

From there, the discussion turned more to one about semantics; how old does one have to be before it should be called "pedophilia." Maybe "allowance" isn't the right word, but I did think it shifted the focus away from the original point: there's a lot of underage sex being talked about in his book in the way one might mention foot fetishism, and I think it's creepy and maybe not-so-okay. The fact that it crops up again in another book, something I didn't know before today, makes my uneasiness even more pronounced.

[Robert]

I believe there is a world of difference between the trusted official or god servent who has dithered adolescents versus the youth who is deemed a pedophile by the state and therefore needs to declare themselves to their neighbors for having a statutory affair with a younger mate.


A 21 year old male, though considered legal by his government, can still be immature figuratively speaking, and have a physical relationship with a girl who is 5 years his junior and emotionally connect as well. It is at least more reciprocal. Sure, it's not legal by state standards, and yes, it is certainly not socially accepted. But to gauge it by the same standards as the priest who manipulates children, not physically matured individuals, into doing his sexual bidding, well, there is no comparison.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

We're veering further and further away from the context under which this was brought up on the show. Mucho is much closer to the priest in this scenario than your 21 year old male, a much older man using his trusted position of authority to create one time sexual encounters with young girls. Any emotional connections that might occur are not implied by the text whatsoever.

[Jeppe]

I was relistening to part of the episode just now, and it got me thinking. Have any of you read Pynchon's newest book Inherent Vice? I feel like that's something that might be more obviously appealing to all three of you - it captures the period feel even better than his early stuff (something about hindsight maybe?) without feeling dated, and it strikes a good balance between postmodern playfulness and an actual narrative. Probably my own favorite Pynchon title after Gravity's Rainbow, and much more easily digested.

[Jason, Walking Allergen]

Thanks for the recommendation, Jeppe. Sounds promising.

[Matt, I am the Great Went.]

This book & Oedipa's role in it, is referenced in this review of a '60s European comic: http://www.tcj.com/reviews/the-advent...