A Game of Thrones
discussion
What age should read this book
So coming form a mom perspective and reading the responses- there are many gory battles, many detailed sex acts, rape, incest and physical altercations depicting child abuse and cruelty. I love these books but you have to know who is reading them and their ability to comprehend what they are reading and how they will understand it. I am currently trying to sort out if my daughters 10 year old friends are actually reading and watching this series or just telling her they are. as this is not a Young Adult type book like hunger games, twilight or the divergent series in any way shape or form. this is a graphic depiction of cruelty and war and in no way is it " a little sex and some battles"
A game of thrones is a very awesome depiction of the medieval era and i think it stays very true to that. And i think that whoever is mature enough to take on these topics is very well welcome to it. Although what lisa has stated is also true, its very, very gore to the very core. Also the incest, rape, sexual histories of the characters, child abuse (which was pretty much the most thing that was making me cringe) is a very common thing in the series. But hey, that doesn't mean that it can only be considered as a bad influence, i think what g r r martin was trying to say was this "life ain't a fairy tale, grow out of it". See? But i would still only recommend it to someone who is mature enough to take on these matters.
Arbaaz wrote: "I think what g r r martin was trying to say was this "life ain't a fairy tale, grow out of it". See? But i would still only recommend it to someone who is mature enough to take on these matters."I agree with this. I don't think the ruler to measure someone's ability to read ASoIaF should focus on the gore/sex content alone (although that obviously plays a part).
These books carry very strong messages, and "life ain't a fairy tale" is mostly addressed to readers who are used to the shiny knights and the sweet princesses and the evil villains in fantasy books. He challenges readers to hate some character, and a few chapters later feel compassion for that same character (it rhymes with freak). He plays with common tropes (boy avenges murdered father and becomes hero) and smashes them to bits in front of you (Jaime Lannister sends his regards). There are several messages about war, revenge, life, gender roles, and so on, and so on, and so on...
People who get too shocked by or too hung up on the sex and violence depictions often miss the point. Just check any of the Goodreads discussions about "gratuitous" sex in these books! That doesn't mean necessarily that some readers are "too childish" or "too stupid" to read these books; we're all different people, and we see the world differently.
Many teenagers (true, mostly in their late teens) are capable of wonderful analysis of these books, their characters and their stories, way past the sex or the gore, and sometimes much better than older people, who grew up with the "classic" genre structure and may have some trouble adapting to its deconstruction.
That said... teenagers are very seldom reliable to self-assess their own maturity level. I mean, come on, there's no teen on Earth who doesn't believe he's ready for everything and super mature and all. Some truly are, some are SO not.
Wastrel wrote: "...I would have been perfectly happy reading these books when I was 10 or 11. Children aren't idiots, nor are they generally put off by sex or violence (often, they like these things). There are much, much scarier things in children's books than the killing-with-molten metal scene! And as for backstory, it's adults whose brains are too small for that. Memorising the trivia about fictional characters is practically the #1 hobby for a lot of kids. I could have given you complete geopolitical sitreps on half a dozen fantasy worlds by the time I was 11."This is a perfect example of it. Being able to stomach sex and violence has nothing to do with understanding the back story. Memorizing facts is not the same as getting the point, the messages it brings. Some people in the ASoIaF fandom can name the whole Targaryen dynasty by date, and still be like "lol tits dude!". Of course, some fans can do both remember every detail and also understand the message behind it.
Lisa wrote: "So coming form a mom perspective and reading the responses- there are many gory battles, many detailed sex acts, rape, incest and physical altercations depicting child abuse and cruelty. I love the..."Personally I would prefer my daughter read ASoIaF to Twilight.
Holly wrote: "Personally I would prefer my daughter read ASoIaF to Twilight"A thousand times! According to age, I would try to make conversation about it, just to check how it's going, but yes, absolutely.
Laura, you are awesome! Jaime lannister sends his regards?? Seriously? It was awesome! And hey, i truly agree with you! And yeah, whenever i have a child, i will not be that parent who always tries to make their children stay away from that stuff. When they are of age, i will fully discuss every single topic there is for them to know (not all of it but at least the things they should know about), and then i am gonna bring to them ASOIAF, and then i'll make time for a group meeting for the books, all their opinions and stuff. If someone here watches supernatural, they'll be able to tell who said it: "demons i get, people are crazy".
Hey Laura;Right now our challenge is that she reads way above her grade level, so I am trying to find good books that will challenge her but not have too much inappropriate content. Right now we are reading Jane Smiley's novel, Horse Heaven. It is an adult book, but mostly deals with the subject of horses and horse racing; and she is fascinated by the subject matter. We had to skip a couple of chapters, but otherwise, a lovely adult novel for young people. I think next we will read A Tree Grows In Brooklyn......after that I am just not sure.
Holly, I can't remember (if you said already) how old your daughter is; what you could consider inappropriate may vary depending on that and also her own ideas about subjects.This is a long post, feel free to scroll, but I'm having a coffee break and I'm bored. Here's what my very personal opinion about early teens and gore/sex content: it is not inappropriate in itself, but it can be, depending on how it's presented.
For example: On one side, you have a very PG scene in an old James Bond movie (not even a bare nipple!), where he practically forces himself into a woman's bed, then dismisses her when done. He's portrayed as the seductive macho hunk who cannot be refused, oh cool, oh hot. On the other side, you have very sexually explicit scenes in these ASoIaF books, where rape is seen as an actual violation, with the intent of dominating, possessing or humiliating the victim. The rapist is commonly portrayed as an asshole.
The problem when people base the appropriateness of something solely on the presence of explicit content, is that they may miss what's really negative as a message for youth. The example you gave, Twilight, illustrates this, too.
In Berlin, sex shops advertise their products like every other store, and kids who walk the streets can see people wearing provocative lingerie and even boobs. Nobody makes a fuss about it; it is only sex and it is natural. Parents talk about this with kids in a natural way, not as if it were something mysterious and dark and forbidden. Some people sunbathe naked on parks in the summer, and everyone's cool with it. Same with the swimming pool and if you don't go to the sauna naked, everyone looks at you funny.
I come from Latin America, and when I arrived here, I was utterly shocked. I was like "B-buh-but kids can see this!! Horror!!". And then I realized... there's nothing wrong with that. As long as the message is clear, communication is open and frank, you're safe, your kid is safe.
I like the fact that you seem to communicate well with your daughter and she seems to appreciate your guidance through her readings. The only thing I would say, as I have soooo lengthly put is... don't have her skip chapters only based on what the movies would call PG. Read them first, prepare yourself and her to discuss what's in there, help her see beyond the obvious (that said, I never read that novel, so I have no clue what's actually in there, but you know your kid better than anyone!).
Sorry for making this so long. Next time I will go eat or drink tea instead of coffee.
Thanks Laura;She will be nine in July. We are a pagan household, so she is also being raised from the viewpoint that sex is a natural thing. We live in a rural area so she has seen animals mating, etc. She has also been raised in a strong matriarchal tradition, pride in being female, the whole empowerment thing.
She has seen selected scenes from the show, and loves it. She wants to start reading the books. Maybe after we finish the two I have already selected we will start with AGoT; I need to re-read it first.
Holly, i don't think that she will even understand AGOT but of course you know better. My advice would be to wait a couple of years. She should be at least 15 to read it in my point. Yes, i do believe that ASOIAF is ver educative But sometimes, there are limits to some ages at which some people can process that kind of stuff. In my opinion, she will be traumatised. But i hope that you sill not let it happen.Plus, you are pagan right? What's your religion? I am muslim by the way.
If they are up for the length, complexity, and overall themes...I say let them have a go at it....at whatever age. They may not understand everything..but any book which encourages a child to read is a good book...
Arbaaz wrote: "Holly, i don't think that she will even understand AGOT but of course you know better. My advice would be to wait a couple of years. She should be at least 15 to read it in my point. Yes, i do beli..."Hi Arbaz;
We follow the Traditional Celtic pagan path. GRRM borrowed the Mother, the Maiden and the Crone from our pantheon of deities.
Thanks for your input. I read The Great Gatsby for the first time when I was ten; I didn't really get the significance of much of the plot, but I do remember loving the prose, Fitzgerald's words were so stylish.
Wait, what mother, an crone? I don't remember, sorry.
@Holly: I was under the impression that the maiden-mother-crone deal was strictly a Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan deal. Admittingly, Recon Celtic faith isn't my wheelhouse, as I stick to a Hellenistic path.Even then, mother/motherly deities are pretty common in almost *all* religions. I'd like to hear more about how GRRM specifically took his from the Celts. :)
EDIT: Sexy, sexy typos.
Arbaaz wrote: "Wait, what mother, an crone? I don't remember, sorry."The Seven, the Faith.
In my ignorance, I had the impression that it was the Old Gods what had been inspired by Celtic pagan. Good to learn!
Lysistrata wrote: "@Holly: I was under the impression that the maiden-mother-crone deal was strictly a Wiccan/Neo-Wiccan deal. Admittingly, Recon Celtic faith isn't my wheelhouse, as I stick to a Hellenistic path.E..."
Yeah, the 'maiden mother crone' thing was invented by Robert Graves in the 1940s, and popularised in his novels; it's not 'celtic' in any way, except inasmuch as Graves liked to claim that things were 'celtic' because 'celtic' at the time worked as a synonym of 'old' and 'mysterious'. Ultimately, it's probably an attempt to combine the doctrines of the trinity and the virginity of mary. Bringing the thing up seems to be a pretty direct way to piss off celtic reconstructionists (people who try to base their religion on celtic religious practices, rather than mid-20th-century pop culture).
There are no trinities of this kind in traditional celtic religions. Some gods and goddesses are sometimes spoken of as trinities - one god presented as three, or three gods closely connected. However, the triples goddesses in celtic religion (i.e. Brigid and the Morrigan) are matching sets of sisters, not distinguished by age or by martial/sexual status.
But the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone aren't a trinity in these books, they're three of the Seven. And except for the Maiden, I'm not sure how this relates to the virginity of Mary, rather than the different phases of a woman's life (within this universe).I'm also not sure that Holly implied that these three were a Celtic trinity either. "From our pantheon" made me think there could also be others, but again, I'm not well versed in Celtic traditions.
Re the Mary comment: Mariology has traditionally offered a 'double goddess', as it were, in that Mary is presented both as maiden (as the Virgin) and as mother (as the Madonna). The 'male' god, meanwhile, got to be triple: father, son, holy ghost. So when people started wanting to talk about a Goddess rather than a God, they naturally wanted her to be triple too, and the easiest way to do that was to take the existing double goddess (or the closest thing to a goddess that was widely available at the time) and add a third part - so the Maiden/Mother duality becomes a Maiden/Mother/Crone alternative feminine trinity.
You are correct, Laura. We also have the Horned God and many other deities as well as worship of the trees, sacred animals, etc.I was not raised with any christian traditions, so I don't know anything about Mary,sorry. I am familiar with the history of modern paganism and find it interesting how everyone tries to quantify it. Personally, I love the mutative quality of the faith; it can be whatever the practitioner wishes it to be.
People can of course practice whatever faith they want; but when they call that faith 'traditional', they're making a historical claim, which can be evaluated in historical terms. But this is probably not very relevant to the reading age for A Game of Thrones.
Wow, thanks everyone. And i am at the second book in the series and i didn't even knew that these gods (the one presented in the books) even had a name. By the way, can someone identify the red god? The one who melisandre and stannis worship? I think its a mixture of christianity and some other religions as well. But the way malisandre keeps converting people and stuff, it seems like the same when christians or muslims did back in the day. (Although they surely couldn't make you choke on a wine and also be able to after drinking poison. Haha.)
Wastrel, in terms of paganism, "traditional" usually denotes a form of Wicca/Neo-Wiccaism that stays close to its British roots (particularly Gardnerism). Given that Holly follows the Horned God, which is *definitely* an aspect of Neo-Wicca/Wicca and not Recon paths, that's probably why she used that term. :) But I'd argue that religion is completely relevant to the age discussion, far more so than the sexual content of the books. Whether we want them to or not, children know about sex. Insisting it's the most important adult content in story does more harm than good at the end of the day.
GRRM has a wide variety of religions in the text that draw from an equally diverse set of historical inspirations. In my experience, kids and teens tend to be complete dunderheads about religion 90% of the time, so there is some room to worry about whether or not they'd understand the intricacies between the different factions. It's not "bad" to expose them to it through ASOIAF, but it could easily go over their heads and hamper their enjoyment of the material.
Wastrel, I understand your explanation, but in no branch of Christianity is Mary a dual goddess or a Trinity (unlike Wiccan or Celtic, I know and I studied this!).It could be interesting to open a discussion about religions in ASoIaF, if there isn't one already. Children and adults may miss some references if they lack the previous knowledge about it. However, I don't really think that someone needs to study the History of religions (or the War of the Roses, or anything at all) in order to understand the messages of these books. It's something else that, yes, comes with stages of maturity.
As I said before... it's not about the presence of sex (some cultures seriously need to relax about sex already, including the one I come from), but what sex represents and how it is being portrayed. Yes, I also think that 9 years old may be too young, but not because of the sex. There is a complexity in the characters and situations, a strong set of emotions and, yes, levels of cruelty that I'm not sure a kid can fully grasp. I don't think she'll be scarred for life, but... I don't know. I would wait for puberty at least, after hormones do their krrrrazy chemistry in the brain? But again, Holly knows her kid...
Holly seems like a good parent regardless of what she decides. :D
K.C. wrote: "Definitely over 20, no offense, but I'm a mother and a lot of the detail in these books I wouldn't want my children to read and yes, teenagers up to a point in my mind are children. I am an author,..."With all the respect, and I haven't read the books, but the TV. Series is 18+ and supposedly a lot more graphic then the books. The books don't show any nudity, while the TV. Series does.
I think this book should be about 14+ if you are mature enough.
This has murder and ponographic content, acording to me it should be 16+ as by that time you can understand the mentality of the character and their development through the time.
you need to be mature to understand that this book is not just epic fantasy and nudity but a lot more than that.. the politics, revenge ,some family element and obviously war.
some people will say thaat age is just a number and it depends on your maturity level.But I believe that even if you are mature you can just understand the ponographic thingy but not the motive behind the things happening that maturity definitely comes with age and experience.
you need to be mature to understand that this book is not just epic fantasy and nudity but a lot more than that.. the politics, revenge ,some family element and obviously war.
some people will say thaat age is just a number and it depends on your maturity level.But I believe that even if you are mature you can just understand the ponographic thingy but not the motive behind the things happening that maturity definitely comes with age and experience.
Heather wrote: "Age is nothing but a number. Depends on the maturity level of the reader. It can be very graphic when it comes to violence and sex. The dialogue is very intriguing and takes a level of maturity to ..."
I feel that to understand the character you need to have experience that definitely comes with age.
I feel that to understand the character you need to have experience that definitely comes with age.
Firstname wrote: "Sandyboy wrote: "Alex's comment perfectly sums it up.
It's a 700 odd page book, a 14 year old without the will, ability and comprehension would not wade through a book of that length hoping to fi..."
I agree,I read 'Eleven minutes' just for sex in 7th grade and it just opened new doors for me, which now I feel that was inappropriate and that decency in me died.
It's a 700 odd page book, a 14 year old without the will, ability and comprehension would not wade through a book of that length hoping to fi..."
I agree,I read 'Eleven minutes' just for sex in 7th grade and it just opened new doors for me, which now I feel that was inappropriate and that decency in me died.
Lachlan wrote: "I'm not sure what age I need to bet to read this"Like many that have posted, it does depend on the reader. I have never censored what my children read - I always make myself available to discuss what they are reading. The result had been children that love to read. My daughter just graduated near the top in her large class in high school and is heading too a major university. She is now debating with which and how many of her favorite books she will take with her this fall!
Umm, as i am sure guys, the person who made this thread have clearly decided on it by now and he probably does not even check the thread now. What i am saying is, this thread is the only one that has this many post about someone who should read what and what not. Hahaahha.
I'm 12 and this is my favorite book ever, soooo.... Does that mean I'm advanced in reading, know to much for my age, and if so, was it a fault for me to have started? PS I'm gonna continue reading it no matter what, it would just be interesting to know
would it be ok if I read this boon. im 11 with a very high reading level this sounds very inserting to me my mom said she didn't know somewhere I read like 10 but a lot of people say 16.
Hannah wrote: "would it be ok if I read this boon. im 11 with a very high reading level this sounds very inserting to me my mom said she didn't know somewhere I read like 10 but a lot of people say 16."Go for it if you've got a mature mind and can deal with concepts like rape
If you are old enough to be able to keep plot lines and characters straight, you are old enough for the content haha, unless you are a prodigy reader as a child
Technically, you're not even allowed to be on Goodreads until you're 13....
I was 15 when I read it. It wasn't the incest, violence or the graphic detail that bothered me. I didn't like it. Maybe it was the sheer size of the book, maybe my age. Maybe I'll like it when I'm older. I don't know. But I'm not sure if it is the worth the time required if you are younger.
Oni wrote: "I'd rate this series MA15+. The 2nd book ('A Clash of Kings') is the most graphic. However, I would be more concerned about the understanding-level of the reader. These books are incredibly complic..."I don't see why exactly. It's not particularly deep or complicated as literature goes. A child might not quite get as much out of it as an adult, but enough to enjoy it I think.
13 - 16It has sex in it so not sure how conservative parents would react to that.
I was 13 when I read the book and I really enjoyed it. Although there are 'scenes', I seemed mature about it. It is an awesome read and it was fun to know the characters. Although I looked at it when i was 13, it was pushing it. 13y - 16y
I am 12 turning 13 in about 1 month i would say i have an alright maturity level but the person who recommended it to me says that there is not much bad stuff in the books
The Dude wrote: "13 - 16It has sex in it so not sure how conservative parents would react to that."
They wouldn't mind the heavy violence, though. But sex? Uproar!
I think there are a lot of opinions in this thread alone, which could be helpful to you, Lilshep. I don't think anyone is perfectly capable to judge their own maturity level, especially at your age, but not only at your age, so I would rely on someone older who really knows you.I don't think that the decision about reading these books or not should be based on "oh but sex" or even the violence. It's about whether you'd be able to understand the themes and messages behind the shocking parts, and also the themes and messages behind the slower, seemingly uneventful parts. As I told someone once, if you get caught in the violence so badly that it's all you see in these books, you were clearly not ready for it, or simply they aren't for you, regardless of age or maturity.
I don't know you, so I can't tell you how it will go for you. I know a guy who's almost 30 y/o, and he's all about the action. He loves the series, but couldn't really get caught in the books. I would recommend you to give it a try, and after a few chapters, analyze yourself and what you understood, and then you can decide, or have someone who knows you well help you decide.
It really, really, depends on how mature you can read. I am 14, but this is one of the best books I have got my hands on. I learnt to skim over sex scenes and simply stick to the main plot. If you can handle and enjoy realistic sort of fantasy (?), then I would say it's okay.
Okay, i gotta say this, that post is sooo old that the guy who made this is now in his late teens.
Also it depends on the person. I could've read this at 11 in terms of the maturity level, but there are some 15 year olds who still couldn't.Just don't rush to read it-you can read their books and wait. Also, if your parents don't want you to read it, respect that and wait. It will make them feel happier that you have listened to them, and also if you wait, it will be even nicer when you are allowed to read it.
I'm 13 but I've read and watched a lot of violent, graphic content and sexual graphic content, so nothing like beheading or sex/nudity is an issue for me. Would I be able to read this book?
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Considering you don't know how to spell "mature," I highly doubt that. You also don't know how to spell "childish" and "people," apparently, words that most 12 year-olds should be able to spell, especially ones smart enough to read ASOIAF.