Why is it so difficult for people to understand there are good and bad people in every race?

[[deleted user]]

I really didn't want to talk politics on a site about books, but the Boston bombing seems to be everywhere I look.

Everything from mental health, to hip hop is being blamed for the reasons behind two white kids killing 3, and severely injuring almost 200 others.

Why is it so hard to believe there can be bad seeds in every race? When people of color do bad things, our mental health isn't as often called into discussion. We just do bad things because it's our nature. For the small percentage of us, who don't exchange in anything illegal, we're often the exception, and not the rule for how people who look like us behave.

It makes me assume,that while I'm alive, race is always going to be a big subject in this country.

[Nulli]

There's no escaping it for the foreseeable future, Guinevere. It's unfortunate, but our country remains divided on this subject, despite rising numbers on all sides that wish it was different.

There are so many stereotypes out there, and while we're used to seeing the negative ones applied to various ethnicities, there's a pervasive positive stereotype that some cultural groups are just naturally good, nonviolent, law abiding, and all around great. Whenever a story pops up displaying anything negative, there has to be a reason for the deviation from the natural state of "goodness" that should be displayed. This anomaly must be researched, and its locus has to be embedded deep within something like mental illness, or affiliation with the "negative elements" of society. For those individuals, they can't choose to be bad, they have to be influenced to do so by forces outside their control. These individuals are afforded the benefit of the doubt automatically in most instances, and are often painted with a brush that evokes sympathy for their plight.

It's disheartening to see the double standards at work, but it will continue to be this way until a massive shift happens. I don't know what that shift will be, I just wish I'd be alive to see it. At this rate, my great grandchildren's great grandchildren won't live to see it.

[Kelan]

It's okay to speak to this issue on a book site because books have a great influence on society as a whole - exposing both our weaknesses and our strengths. America is one great big social experiment never attempted before. In some ways it actually works, and in other ways, it fails miserably.

The simple truth you speak is that there are good and bad people in every race, culture, (and yes, religion).

While I write what is considered multicultural fiction, as a white author, I am still hesitant to create a major villain of color (though I have written some minor ones). I don't want to perpetuate the often negative perspective you mention above, especially since I believe young people of color need more positive influences than negative ones right now. I don't gloss over racial stereotyping, hopefully I address it in a realistic way that incorporates humor (the great equalizer).

But here's something I want to address with regard to race and writing: When I see a new author of color here on Goodreads or Amazon (especially if they write YA) then I go to their book site to find their main character is white, I feel disappointed, like a great opportunity has been missed.

I understand why authors often choose to do this, because it's commercially more viable. Trust me, with a 16 year-old African American male protagonist, I "get" the hurdles this presents. The mainstream YA readership crowd remains the white, female.

But I believe we can push this envelope a bit more with positive results. I'm living proof. Especially Indie Authors, who have more freedom and have already changed the landscape of publishing. And who better to present great stories and brilliant characters of color than authors of color?

I remember once when I was really depressed about a major negative event that occurred in America, someone gave me this great advice: When something terrible happens one a grand scale that you cannot change, return to your own smaller community and do something positive at a grass-roots level to affect change. Great piece of advice.

[Ruth]

Despite what many good people think, race, racism, bigotry and stereotyping are going to be around for a long, long time. And as soon as we think we've stomped it out, it'll pop up somewhere else. It's insidious.

What we can do is build our imaginary worlds to be better places. We can show a future where color is of no importance, it's all about character.

And when bad things in this world happen, we can be the voices in the wilderness saying "HOLD UP! WAIT FOR FACTS!" If enough reasonable people insist on waiting for facts, eventually the truth will come out.

[Aya]

Interesting discussion. I have to add also that I wish and hope for a more varied portrayal of minority characters. I don't mind if minorities are portrayed negatively--as long as they are realistic. In movies, for example, I usually see (mostly African-Americans) minorities in good, supporting, boring roles, not the character who takes action and makes an impact. I want to see more character development than just reducing minorities to dispensable roles who don't really do anything important. There is, as Guinevere says, good and bad in every race.

Kelan, I definitely agree with you--though I am guilty of being an author of color who writes white protagonists! I think genre plays a big role; I write medieval fantasy so it's hard for me to envision it other than a Eurocentric world. I do have plans to write a historical romance/fantasy set in ancient China, and someday maybe an Asian urban fantasy, so it'll be an all-Asian cast :) But kudos to you for attempting to write an African-American male protagonist--I have trouble even with depicting secondary male characters in my story!

[Kelan]

Aya wrote: "Interesting discussion. I have to add also that I wish and hope for a more varied portrayal of minority characters. I don't mind if minorities are portrayed negatively--as long as they are realisti..."

Aya, if the genre and setting are specific like yours, then it's only right that the characters are of the correct culture/race. I should have been more specific.

Believe me, I didn't wake up one day and decide I wanted to attempt an African American male lead. Calvin, grew out of the need for conflict. Like you, my first character was actually the place and setting, and the other characters grew from that. It works because the lead is from an urban area and gets thrown into a predominately white region of agriculture.

The story was originally a screenplay that I wrote years ago. And like you, I wanted to see a lead character of color who "takes action and makes an impact" - not just be another sidekick role. Though its slowly getting better, we are all too familiar with mainstream media's incorporation of people of color as the main character's Black friend from school, Asian-American neighbor, Hispanic co-worker, etc. etc..

In screenwriting, it's much easier to write for characters who are extremely different from yourself because you don't get inside their heads as much. In transforming the story to novel, I felt that as a white female author, I would be much better off writing third-person for a black male protagonist.

And yea for your forthcoming historical romance/fantasy with an all Asian cast! Though it's now predominately white, the setting for my novel has a rich Chinese and Chinese-American history, so the story gave me a run for my money in terms of writing outside of my own race/culture. But as writers, we should be able to properly depict characters who are extremely different from us if we take care to give them depth. It's our job.

[[deleted user]]

I will agree with Aya. While not ALL my characters are white, a few main characters are. I don't think I can help it, it reflects how I see the world. As an Afro-Latino, Im not surrounded by only Non-Hispanic Blacks and Blacks. So I write how the world is reflected back at me.

I'm not sure how many other people would agree, but as much as I'd like to see more roles and characters where Blacks are dominate and not just supporting roles,where they are very boring, it can't just stop there. There needs to be more voices for Asian(whether they be American born or Asian born)more Latino, just more people in color in general.

I think it's ok to have a Eurocentric base, but it's also fun to mix Eurocentric culture with other types of culture as well. I can't help that i've never been able to write a solely "African" or "Asian" or "Euro" based story. It's always been easier to get more ideas out of blending different things together, into a little soup. =D

[Nulli]

Aya wrote: "Interesting discussion. I have to add also that I wish and hope for a more varied portrayal of minority characters. I don't mind if minorities are portrayed negatively--as long as they are realisti..."

Your comment reminded me of why I wrote my medieval fantasies the way I did. I made up the worlds, but they are set in that era. Since the worlds themselves aren't real, I populated them with various races. The characters live in the environment. I don't call attention to a specific race at all. I describe what someone looks like, but I don't use terms like black, white, Asian, etc. No one reacts to the different races in the story with shock or alarm. It's normal in that world to have multiple ethnicities living together without stereotypes. People are just people in those stories, and I felt that was important to illustrate.

We have a lot of freedom when we create our worlds. Just sharing my experience. :)

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

I totally LOVE discussions like this, yay!

Being a total historical buff, I have to challenge the assertion that the medieval world was strictly Eurocentric. Far from it, my friends. Remember there were the Crusades, the Moorish occupation of Spain, and the Silk Road to the East. There was great trade between cultures, especially around the Mediterranean and the East. Think back to Morgan Freeman's Moorish character from the Kevin Costner version of Robin Hood. Some people thought it was historical revisionism or political correctness until Freeman and Costner set them straight. I love the medieval period, the Tudor/Elizabethan eras as well as the Regency and Victorian eras. Believe me, PoC's were there, even if not in prominent roles.

The big problem I see is that we just don't study history enough in this country. If we have a hard time getting American history to be more inclusive, it's damn near impossible to get world history correct, lol. Africa, Asia and Mesoamerica were vibrant cultures with several great kingdoms that were the equal to Europe. Also two of the Knights of the Round Table were written being of African/Moorish descent (not that King Arthur truly existed, but still).

On the original subject, the fact of the matter is most people are lazy. They choose to fall back on stereotypes so that they do not have to leave their little comfort zone. It's sad that we have to keep trying to reinforce the fact that there are good people and bad people, regardless of race. Frankly, I wouldn't waste my time trying to educate those kinds of people, and it's not my job to do that. As a writer, I want to see more PoC's not just as main characters, but diverse within their cultures. I keep bitching about this, but I want to see more geeks, goths, skaters, nerds, rockers, etc. within the milieu of multicultural books. When I read fantasy, I want to see an author who's willing to do something a little different in regards to race, gender, sexuality, etc. And why not a medieval fantasy with diverse characters? It wouldn't be historically inaccurate as I've just illustrated. Besides, it's fantasy--one can get away with pretty much anything. If one can do magic and dragons, one can have an African/Asian/Aztec kinght, right?

[Nulli]

TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "Being a total historical buff, I have to challenge the assertion that the medieval world was strictly Eurocentric. Far from it, my friends. Remember there were the Crusades, the Moorish occupatio..."

*genuflects*

[[deleted user]]

great words @TheFountainPenDiva

[[deleted user]]

=D

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

Fangirls had kittens over a biracial black woman playing Guinevere in the BBC series 'Merlin', even though:

A: King Arthur did NOT exist in the fashion that we've come to know, but may have been an amalgamation of Bronze Age/Iron Age warlords. The Brits have been doing archaelogy of their island for hundreds of years just looking for the site of Camelot, which if it did exist would not be a castle and more of a wooden fortification with some stone as a foundation. Though we're still trying to figure out Stonehenge, LOL.

B: If he were an Iron Age/Bronze Age warlord, the Romans brought their legions to Britian. Those legions would have been comprised of men of many races whose home countries would have been under Roman rule, therefore there would have been Africans in the legions, hence a biracial Guinevere and lastly,

C: Since we still do not know that much about the "historical" personage of Arthur, it really doesn't matter who the hell plays him or Lancelot or Guinevere, LOL.

[[deleted user]]

Being a Black Guinevere I must concur =D

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

Guinevere wrote: "Being a Black Guinevere I must concur =D"

LOL. I concede the field, Milady *curtseys*

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

For those who believe medieval means Eurocentric, allow me to present Exhibit A: . A rollicking IR adventure romance for fans of Xena, LOL.

[Tom]

TheFountainPenDiva wrote: "Fangirls had kittens over a biracial black woman playing Guinevere in the BBC series 'Merlin', even though:

A: King Arthur did NOT exist in the fashion that we've come to know, but may have been a..."

I suppose that B makes sense. Each legion was recruited from the same territory--hence why you hear of Caesar's Spanish legions, the Scipio's Italian legions, and the Balkan legions that served the Byzantines (some of their generals even fought their way onto the Emperor's throne, in fact). It'd make sense if one of the Spanish legions, for example, had some Moors / Nubians mixed in. But now I'm curious to read some source material on this.

Personally, I think biracial Guinevere is a cop-out--one of those situations where the PR people in the studio scribble into the margins of the script, "Too many WASPs! Needs diversity!" I really don't think the studio had historical accuracy in mind when they hired that actress.

Speaking of the Boston bombings, my Commander was watching O'Reilly(ugh) with me the other day and flat-out agreed that the US should put a freeze on student visas. In fact, he went farther with it. He said that anyone who looks Muslim shouldn't be allowed in the country. When I asked him to support that argument, he started barking about how all terrorists are Muslim and we need to keep ourselves save. He blustered, "You'll understand when you have a child!"

The weird thing is, he's a Haitian immigrant. By his same logic, since there are Haitian immigrants who join gangs and kill people (more people than the Boston bombers killed actually), all black people should be banned from immigration (because a black person looks Haitian to ignorant eyes).

I was so pissed that I just walked away. It makes me grit my teeth in disgust, just thinking about what he said. Those are not the points of view that I'm fighting for over here. And the rest of my unit would agree. Sad to see such drivel coming from the person who's supposed to lead us.

[Aya]

Loads of great comments :)

I know that medieval Europe is far from being homogeneous, but the fairy tale and fantasy books I grew up with depict an all-Caucasian cast, so unfortunately, it came naturally to me to write it that way. However, as my motivation was to criticize bland British food, my story people weren't all Anglo-Saxon either, I included pseudo-French and Italian as well. It really depends on the story.

Thomas, what you mentioned about your Haitian commander isn't surprising. In Taiwan where I come from, we have people complaining about racism from developed countries (U.S., Japan, etc.) but at the same time look down to those from less developed countries. It's sad when we see ourselves as victims, it's easier to be blind to other forms of prejudice.

[[deleted user]]

This was a great topic!I'm hoping to discuss many more things like this in the future1

[Kelan]

What a lively discussion by an intelligent group. Really gave me some things to think about. I had to dumb-down just to go to work yesterday.

Having worked in Hollywood, I have to mention that what Thomas said about producer's idea of recognizing diversity has some sad truth to it. They often incorporate characters/actors not based on historical accuracy but rather on attempting to be more diverse. They want to appear "in-touch" with regard to the diversity of the real world - though they are often not in touch with research and authenticity. In modern stories and fantasy, this doesn't bother me at all. If however, there is a very serious element of historical fiction, it can pull me out of the story as my brain starts working on the details, "Wait a minute, would that character be ..."

As a reader, when entering a fantasy world that is completely of the the author's creation, I like it best when the characters are described in a way that leaves it open to my own imagination. When they cast Rue in Hunger Games, she filled the bill perfectly for me while others seem to have missed her description in the book.

In becoming an author of what is often described as Urban Fantasy with several characters of color, I was suddenly forced to clarify white people. And that's a good thing. Previously as a playwright and later a screenwriter, I only clarified who was not white.

And Thomas, when I walk into a room where someone is watching O'Reilly, I turn around and make a hasty exit without even engaging. It's only going to result in my blood pressure going up if I stay and my energy is better spent. But your interaction with your Commander takes us right back to Guinevere's original post that started this ball rolling!

Happy Sunday, y'all. Hope you get to spend some of it reading and relaxing. I have to go to work. Booooooooo!

[[deleted user]]

Loved where this discussion went =D

Loved The Hunger Games,my only complaint with Rue was that she wasn't what I pictured. She and Thresh were described as the same color. Im sure to someone not Black, it's not a big deal, but as great as the actress portraying Rue was, her being fair skinned perpetuated that Hollywood still doesn't find dark skin attractive.

It's not just in the US. Movies from the Asian, African and European countries practice that "mixed race" look, especially for female actresses. If it's not something you notice, look at any couple onscreen who are both Black. Most likely the girl will always be fair,and her counterpart will have dark skin. Very few films or tv shows I've seen showcased anything different.

It's unfortunately something embedded in our culture. All im saying is it effects me, that's all.

[The FountainPenDiva, Old school geek chick and lover of teddy bears]

@Thomas: I respectfully disagree that a biracial Guinevere is a "cop out". Indeed as I stated before, there would have been historical precedent for the presence of Africans in Roman Britain. There would have been some sort of intermixing/intermarriage between both groups, though I am sure lots of culture clashes and curiosity. As far as sources, Google and a good local library can work wonders, LOL. And unlike Hollywood, I am willing to give the BBC a little more credit when it came to casting Amber Mosby as Guinevere. They could have easily cast a white actor, but took a risk in tossing aside conventional wisdom in not only casting her, but giving her a hugely significant role in the series. Besides, why is it we tend to question whenever a person of color is cast in what would be considered "atypical" roles? And since neither Arthur nor Guinevere existed as we've come to know them in Western literature, we can toss that old "historical accuracy" canard in the trash bin.

Not that I'm against a certain amount of veracity in some things, but when we're talking fictional personages, then I'm less of a traditionalist. A black Romeo and Juliet or an Asian Tosca is perfectly fine by me.