Goodreads Ireland discussion
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Thanks, Allan, for that information. So, that makes me wonder why characters would have asked Duffy if he were Catholic, then, if everyone would know what religion a name was associated with. Was it a way for McKinty to emphasize that fact--that people are pegged immediately through their names--or was it really just a way for the character of Duffy to be made to feel more ill-at-ease, like some sort of power play or mind game played? Sara, I'm sorry to read that it's bronchitis. That's a bear. On a happier note, you must have met or exceeded your 20 book challenge with all the books you've read. How far along did you get this month?
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Cathleen wrote: "Thanks, Allan, for that information. So, that makes me wonder why characters would have asked Duffy if he were Catholic, then, if everyone would know what religion a name was associated with. Wa..."In the second book in the Trilogy, I was intrigued when Duffy didn't initially know someone was Catholic but figured it out after a bit of back and forth. Sometimes it's not the name, but other things - accents identify neighborhoods, choice of words etc. Vocabulary like saying "the 6 counties" (Republican, nationalist leaning), vs. Northern Ireland.
I was also interested in both books how Duffy describes certain details about characters and the various Protestant churches they belong to. I cannot recall specifics though there are several different Presbyterian churches in NI which according to Wikipedia (not a good source for an academic to use, but...) split from the Presbyterian Church of Ireland. Presbyterism can be traced back to Scotland and John Calvin. My experience with Scottish and NI Presbyterianism, though limited, is that it is more conservative than American. Years back I was in the Western Hebrides, where the landlady in the B&B prepared my Sunday Meals on Saturday which I had to eat cold on Sunday. NO restaurants or shops of any kind were open on Sunday and she also asked that I not do any hand laundry on Sunday :) More than a little "orthodox" in keeping the Sabbath.
Out of curiosity I just looked up Catholic churches in the Shetlands and the most northernly Catholic church in the UK is in Lerwick. Lerwick is on the big island and about mid-point, so apparently practicing Catholics either live close to Lerwick or have a long drive to mass either on Sat. at 5 PM or Sunday at 10:30. Of course, it you live far out of town, you can always make a weekend of it:) I wasn't actually in Lerwick early enough on Sunday or late enough on Saturday to check it out. BTW, some of the islands in the Western Hebrides are Catholic - they were supporters of Bonnie Prince Charlie.
http://www.virtualhebrides.net/SG.htm
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In my second year of college (2002), I spent spring semester working on farms in Scotland through the World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms program. I was staying in Scourie, a small village on the Northwest coast when Easter Sunday rolled around. I wanted to go to church, but the nearest Catholic church was in Ullapool, about 45 miles away. With no transportation of my own that was out of the question, so I wound up at a small rather conservative Protestant church (I forget the exact denomination). They were generally friendly but also gave me a pamphlet trying to convert me.
Sara wrote: "That reminds me of a story:In my second year of college (2002), I spent spring semester working on farms in Scotland through the World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms program. I was staying ..."
I think there are probably spots in Virginia where the closest Catholic church is 30 or 40 miles. You were open-minded going to a Protestant church. Before Vatican 2, Catholics weren't allowed in Protestant churches, and probably not any non-Catholic place of worship. Why do I know and remember these things????
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In my second year of college (2002), I spent spring semester working on farms in Scotland through the World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms program. I..."
I figured it was better than not going at all. I also got into an argument with one of the villagers about Mary. I think the opening up of things has been good. It allows everyone to learn from one another.
We have to remember that the Catholic view of Mary is quite different from some Protestant churches' view. I think that it is very interesting that Muslims hold Mary in high regard.
There seems to be a notion that Catholic veneration of Mary is Idolatry. I've heard protestant fundamentalists referring to Catholicism as Maryism and the Church of Mary. In one of Stephen King's Dark Tower books a preacher refers to Catholicism as the Cult of Mary.
@Allan, that is quite an education. I guess we can do that with some names if they're out of the main stream but Sean would not be one. We might ask if they have Irish heritage but that's no guarantee. Would Susan be Catholic or Protestant? How about Johnson? My maiden name was Engstrom so you'd know right away it was Swedish.@LMM, I had no idea that a fairy cake was a cupcake. I've always wondered. By the way, is there any way we could know your first name? I always think of curd and whey when I talk to you.
Cathleen, I can't remember the specific incidents in the first book re people asking after Duffy's religion, but they may well have been doing so to confirm their suspicions. Carrick as a town is almost exclusively Protestant, to the point that kids over 11 have to go to Belfast for schooling, so it'd be pretty easy to notice the difference names wise. I have to say thought, that Victoria, where Duffy lived in the book, is probably the most moderate social housing area in the town-as a Catholic, even at that time, he could have lived there without a problem from anyone, but that wouldn't have made for good reading! Barbara is definitely right about people taking other cues from individuals about their religion if they can't work this out from their name. The second favourite question for people would be asking which school someone went to-as schooling is segregated, this would tell someone straight away a person's religion -indeed, this is how equal opportunities are afforded in job applications, with applicants filling in a separate form about their schooling-religious makeup of the workforce is then monitored to ensure that there is no discrimination by employers against members of a particular community.
All these points are all very frustrating for someone like me, for whom religion doesn't come into the equation at all, but unfortunately it's a fact of life in our society up here, and is unlikely to change any time soon. :(
Barbara, it's scary the number of denominations of evangelical Protestant churches there are in NI. You're right about most coming originally from the Presbyterian faith, the biggest of course being Ian Paisley's Free Presbyterian Church. They would definitely be observers of the 'sabbath', and until recent years, through their political links to the DUP, ensured that all shops were closed, and swings tied up in parks etc on Sundays. People like the brethren would be the same, and would go as far as having dress code etc which comes from the King James Version of the bible-women don't cut their hair and have to wear long skirts and cover their heads etc-there's a lot that live pretty close to me. For these people, tv etc are right out on a Sunday-you're devoted to worshipping God and that's it. It's from these denominations that you hear rubbish like the pope is the Antichrist etc-unfortunately, their proportion of people in power politically is vastly greater than their number due to their relationship with parties mentioned above. I'd say that in Scotland, you must've stayed with someone who was part of a similar church grouping.
I have to say though, that the majority of Presbyterians or indeed Protestants aren't as 'strict' as this-for example, my mum would be religious and Presbyterian, but their church is actually quite ecumenical in its outlook, and she would have no problem shopping etc on a Sunday. And to be honest, the majority of people don't even attend church anymore, so things like the sabbath mean very little other than a day off work. Unfortunately old tribal loyalties still remain, though!
Susan, at first glimpse, I'd say that people who were interested in that sort of thing up here would hear Susan Johnson as a name and think 'Protestant', but would maybe ask which school you went to to check their assumption!
@Susan. Most people in both sides, as Allan said, are moderates, but they make the least noise.
And I'd take you're name as protestant, too, but on this side there's more cross-over. I have friends called Rogers, Pettigrew and Jones who are all Catholic.
And I'd take you're name as protestant, too, but on this side there's more cross-over. I have friends called Rogers, Pettigrew and Jones who are all Catholic.
@Jamielynn. It sounds close to one of my rants. :) I hope it was satisfying.
So, Allan, when you say the schools are segregated what does that mean? Are your schools, like ours, run by the government and called public? Church schools are private and usually expensive. Do you have separate schools for Catholics and Protestants on a public school basis or are they private? Sorry that I have so many questions.Well, if they guessed my name was Protestant they would be right. I was in my 40's before I knew Catholics had extra books in their Bible. I am the definition of a WASP. I am not evangelical though but I respect people who are while I disagree with many of their practices. Any religion that considers a group of people inferior (like women) would not be anything I practiced.
Susan-the funding for the schooling system is complimented in NI. When the state was set up in 1921, the first education minister wanted a system like that in USA, ie no religion at all in schools with funding. At the time, churches ran all the schools, and refused to transfer across to the new system. Eventually, with concessions, Protestant church schools became 'controlled' by the govt, receiving all funding from the state , while maintaining a presence on the boards of governors. On our school's governors for example, there are 3 ministers and another 2 church representatives out of 12 members I think-quite a say.Understandably, given the fact that NI was declared as a 'Protestant state for a Protestant people' by its first PM, the Catholic Church refused to transfer any governance across. Eventually, they received finding via a system where they're 'maintained' by govt funding via a body called CCMS, with the church also having a say on their board of governors, though I'm not sure how much.
There's also a third sector, the integrated sector, that educates children of all denominations and none. This was set up in the 80s in Belfast, and is growing, but still has a long way to go before being anywhere near the size of the other two sectors.
In the meantime, it's pretty normal for children from either side of the community to have no meaningful contact with each other at all until university, if they go. And of course, if you don't know someone from a particular community, it's so easy to dehumanise them. No wonder our country is the way that it is!
Allan wrote: "Susan-the funding for the schooling system is complimented in NI. When the state was set up in 1921, the first education minister wanted a system like that in USA, ie no religion at all in schools ..."Thanks so much for all of this information, Allan. So--even if a family were Catholic or Protestant in name only, the children would typically go to a Protestant or Catholic school? (With the exception of the newer integrated schools?)
That's correct, Cathleen-and there wouldn't even be integrated schools or enough places within them for everyone to go to even if they wanted to. It's very sad. There's actually a new model being tried out at present in the west of NI at at least one site, where schools from both sectors share a physical site and facilities, but are still educated separately. Seems strange, but better than total segregation I suppose!
Allan wrote: "That's correct, Cathleen-and there wouldn't even be integrated schools or enough places within them for everyone to go to even if they wanted to. It's very sad. There's actually a new model being..."
This may be a completely obvious question--but then would that mean that teachers would be required to be (nominally, at least) Protestant or Catholic to teach at the respective schools?
Good on you, Gerry. You did the right thing.
It is certainly interesting to read about another's school system. Over here the priority is no religion at all so not to offend anybody. Sometimes I think we take it a little far as we no longer have Easter vacation but Spring break. Although I guess if I wasn't Christian it might be offensive. Some schools do not allow you to say Merry Christmas but have to say Happy Holidays. This to me is too far but I am, of course, Christian. Still we are a nation founded on freedom of religion and I think it's still a noble goal.
Re inaccurate views of Catholics/Catholicism: a few days ago I saw "Philomena" at the movies(movie with Judi Dench where her toddler child is taken away from her by Catholic nuns)and afterwards we thought there's no wonder that non-Catholics think Catholics are a bunch of raving lunatics! It's sad but true that popular fiction and mainstream movies present the extreem views so that we all end up thinking "others" are crazy!!
I had the same reaction when I saw Philomena. I am a little nervous to be around nuns because of my image formed by the movies. You always read about nuns being so mean in schools but I have no idea if that was true.
Susan wrote "here the priority is no religion at all so not to offend anybody. Sometimes I think we take it a little far as we longer have Easter vacation but Spring break...". Yes, here in New Zealand, I also make an effort to say "enjoy the holidays", rather than "hope you have a great Christmas" to my kids' friends/parents who come from diverse backgrounds. I don't think they would be offended if I didn't but I feel better about not assuming they do celebrate Christmas - however, it would probably get my back up if I was told I couldn't say "Merry Christmas" to people I know celebrate Christmas.
I was scrolling through the Goodreads book giveaway list and realized there are a lot of books I would never read. Jesus in Walmart is one, books that show shirtless men's abs and women twirling their underwear on their legs on book covers, vampires and werewolves and, well, you got the picture.
Gerry-I can't possibly imagine what might have drawn you to Liverpool for your teacher training...! :-D !!
Oh man. Don't get me started on religions running schools over here. The bane of my life. It is such a struggle to find good schools here that aren't run by religion faiths. We were very lucky enough to get places in the local Educate Together, a non-denominational school.
Our choices are so limited. And it's even worse for secondary schools. It's such a hard choice to make, that so many people of no faith Christen their children just to keep their options open, and nothing ever changes, and the Census continues to count everyone as Catholic.
@Susan. I was sure that the schools weren't allowed to to take a stance on religion but students were allowed to make any type of religious greeting they saw fit, i.e. the schools wished everyone happy holidays but students could wish a happy Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanza.
@John. Non-Catholics are accepted into CBSs and Convent schools but what has been happening is that they weren't being excluded from RI/RE. One atheist couple were on TV last year talking about how their son came home worried about hell and feeling guilt about Jesus dying on the cross 'for his sins.'
@John. Non-Catholics are accepted into CBSs and Convent schools but what has been happening is that they weren't being excluded from RI/RE. One atheist couple were on TV last year talking about how their son came home worried about hell and feeling guilt about Jesus dying on the cross 'for his sins.'
Does it have anything to do with the cold weather and Vodka?
I've finally gotten around to starting The Luminaries after buying it last year. I kept starting it but getting no further than 5-10 pages as others things kept getting in my way.I've got to say, despite its often long winded and flowery descriptive writing (which many, myself included, would probably consider padding), the setting is actually all the richer for it! Really enjoyed the opening 100 or so pages, full of secrecy and intrigue, and I find myself looking forward to going to bed so I can jump back into the world of gold prospecting in the 1800's. I like a bit of period pieces normally and all the more with an authentic language set of old time-y words!
I read an article about women writers and the article asked the question of how many are on your bookshelf or whatever. I thought to myself: asides from a couple of things I'd read in college I've not got much probably...the old Potter novels and what have you. So all the better I've enjoyed this really. Also watched a sports program about women's sport today...what's happening to me? Am I...a feminist? Does feminism creep up on you in the night, under the duress of sleeplessness; grabbing hold of your soul and never letting go? A Dementor/Gremlin hybrid that can't can't wash clean (water makes it multiply!)
Who knows...2014 Niall is full of surprises...to himself.
Oh, Niall, it's great you're walking on the dark side. I have ragging Declan about reading women authors and he has started to do it. He even read Agatha Christie. He read and survived and I hope you will too.
Susan wrote: "the dark side"That was a poor choice of phrase? Makes me feel as though I've chosen the wrong side on this one. Classic case of "Are we the baddies?" as shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv2XGQ...
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My February plan is to (1) Read all the young adult books I own but haven't read. (2) Read all the books my lovely Secret Santa pals here gave me. (3) Finally finish Howard Zinn's A People History of the United States (which I started last April and haven't gotten back to since!). (4) Read 4 books for book groups.
Wish me luck! Oh and here's a picture (minus the book group books) of all the books.
I should also mention I plan to start either with Wildwood by Colin Meloy which was my Secret Santa gift from Barbara and is a middle grade fiction book or with Elijah of Buxton by Christopher Paul Curtis which I want to loan Barbara.
Sara wrote: "So my January reading plans to read 20 of my unread under 150 pages are almost complete. By tomorrow afternoon I will have read 19/20! I call that a success. My plan for January worked so well, I ..."Sara, Congrats to you. I'm amazed at how quickly you can read!
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Getting bronchitis actually helped LOL.
Congratulations, Sara. And I've no doubt you'll ace this month's challenge, too. You're probably the most prodigious reader in the group, and we have some very impressive readers.
Congratulations, Sara. That's some goal.
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Yes but a big difference reading books more than 150 pages. You go girl.
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True. The fact that some of them are young adult books will definitely help. On the other hand, Fortress of Solitude by Lethem intimidates me for some reason. I'm considering getting the audio version (it seems like it's gotten good reviews on Audible) and switching back and forth between the two. I'm waiting to hear from Allan about whether that's a good idea.
Declan wrote: "@John. Non-Catholics are accepted into CBSs and Convent schools but what has been happening is that they weren't being excluded from RI/RE. One atheist couple were on TV last year talking about how their son came home worried about hell and feeling guilt about Jesus dying on the cross 'for his sins.' "Indeed. There are two problems; acceptance and choice. I wouldn not send my children to schools that teach religion* as much as that limits our options.
*I mean where religion is taught as fact, not as socio-cultural anthropology.
I've started reading The Rosie Project which is a very funny first-person narrative of an adult with aspergers trying to find a wife by getting prospective females to pass a questionnaire. Confession: I just snook my Kindle into the toilet in work for 5 minutes.
Sara, those are some reading plans for February! Re Fortress of Solitude, don't feel intimidated! I've actually read it and listened on audiobook at different stages, and both were very enjoyable! Barbara used Whispersync recently with another book, so she might be a better person to ask re mixing the two mediums.I hope you enjoy it and your other reads!
Niall wrote: "I read an article about women writers and the article asked the question of how many are on your bookshelf or whatever."I always find this topic strange. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. It's not something I pay any attention to until it appears here. The Sex of the author is irrelevant to me. Sometimes I wouldn't even know (e.g. A.M. Homes). Definitely not a factor when choosing a book. I don't understand why it would be. Unless you were only into very masculine books on... I don't know... War?
But for the sake of it, I'm going to do a head count (or a sausage count) of my last 10 books.
Levy, Deborah
Wait, Rebecca
Rowell, Rainbow
Willis, Connie
Tartt, Donna
Rigby, Kate
Stegner, Wallace
Flynn, Gillian
Atkinson, Kate
Riggs, Ransom
Go figure! Only 2 out of 10 are men. (Assuming Rainbow Rowell is a woman.)
Niall wrote: "Am I...a feminist?"
I hope so. I sure am. It's basically the belief that women should have the same rights as men.
And that includes your bookshelf :)
John wrote: "Indeed. There are two problems; acceptance and choice. I wouldn not send my children to schools that teach religion* as much as that limits our options...."
Totally on your side, John. I raised that becuase you mentioned families baptising their children for the sake of schooling. In my experience non-religious families baptise their kids for the ceremony. Merely for the rite of passage.
Totally on your side, John. I raised that becuase you mentioned families baptising their children for the sake of schooling. In my experience non-religious families baptise their kids for the ceremony. Merely for the rite of passage.
Declan wrote: "In my experience non-religious families baptise their kids for the ceremony. Merely for the rite of passage. "Now that you mention it. I have a friend... (a good friend even though we are like chalk and cheese) who is having his son Christened for that very reason.
He asked me to be godfather, and I always wondered how I would react to that question since becoming a strong Atheist. And this answer is of course, that you can't respond with anything other than 100% enthusiasm. Not sure it's technically possible though as I officially deflected from the catholic church.
All our kids had naming ceremonies as a rite of passage (wasn't as wanky as it sounds). They just weren't religious ceremonies.
John wrote: "http://areyouafeminist.com/ :)"
I used to use that label for years without givinng it much thought, John. Since Rebecca Watson's elevatorgate, which you might be familiar with, I'll never use that label again. I prefer the term egalitarian which doesn't carry the same misandristic baggage.
After elevatorgate I saw this. If it isn't OK to say that the pay gap exists because of women's career choices than it isn't OK to paint men as default rapists.
I'd hoped this might be isolated but then I saw this
There was also the Man-Up campaign which simultaneously and hypocritically demonised men while shaming them through their masculinity.
I could go on for quite a while. I will add that if academic feminism continues to spread flimsy concepts (such as Patriarchy 'Theory' and Rape Culture) as fact, it's no wonder so many feminists hate men.
I used to use that label for years without givinng it much thought, John. Since Rebecca Watson's elevatorgate, which you might be familiar with, I'll never use that label again. I prefer the term egalitarian which doesn't carry the same misandristic baggage.
After elevatorgate I saw this. If it isn't OK to say that the pay gap exists because of women's career choices than it isn't OK to paint men as default rapists.
I'd hoped this might be isolated but then I saw this
There was also the Man-Up campaign which simultaneously and hypocritically demonised men while shaming them through their masculinity.
I could go on for quite a while. I will add that if academic feminism continues to spread flimsy concepts (such as Patriarchy 'Theory' and Rape Culture) as fact, it's no wonder so many feminists hate men.
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Goodreads Ireland
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On a happier note, I finished one book today (The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman. The Gilman short story was so so on it's own, but the afterward essay (which dug into it's historical/feminist context and the authors other work) was fascinating.
I also read a third of Christ the Tiger, a spiritual autobiography (a sub-genre that I'm particularly fond of). So far it's quite illuminating.
Tonight I hope to either read A Stranger Came Ashore or Woman at Point Zero...possibly both if I don't watch too much t.v. or get worn out coughing.
Oh! I almost forgot. My copy of Stoner finally came. I picked it up at the library today and hope to read at least part of it tomorrow.