5. WOODROW WILSON: A BIOGRAPHY~ CHAPTER 8 AND CHAPTER 9 (159 - 197) ~ APRIL 22nd - APRIL 28th, No Spoilers, Please

[Peter]

It's certainly true that the rich have power over the "common person", but the extent of that power and the restraints on it do vary over time and place.

[Bryan]

Sherry wrote: "in the closing of his nomination speech Wilson closes "demanding 'unentangled government that will not tolerate the use of the organization of a great party to serve the personal aims and ambitions..."

Indeed, Sherry, it is a message that resonates today and yesterday. I think many people disenfranchised by their government. Keep on reading :-)

[Vincent]

Just a couple of observations.

Msg. 8 & 9 & 10 - Mark & Bryan & Peter – But Carnegie did allow his man Frick to call out the Pinkertons at Homestead – actually Carnegie was out of the country. I think that Carnegie was interested in industrial discipline. And Carnegie’s philanthropy I believe followed his industrial success and I think after he sold off the steel works. The philanthropy did not get lost in the shuffle but rather followed the shuffle. I also think that the Rockefeller charity starts from his life long church participation but that book is on my list.

These chapters show similarity to today – they have trusts – we have bailed out banks etc. – they have concerns about campaign spending – we have PACs. – Even for justice (page 186 para 1) –“that a poor man has less chance of justice… than a rich man” compared to in today’s New York Times front page story that now in the Bronx of New York there is up to a five year wait to come to trial.

[Bryan]

Vince, it sounds like history sometimes runs in circles.

[Peter]

Bryan wrote: "Vince, it sounds like history sometimes runs in circles."

Brought to mind two quotes:

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme" - Mark Twain

and

"History does not always repeat itself. Sometime it just yells 'can't you remember anything I tell you?' and lets fly with a club" John W. Campbell

[Bryan]

Lol, Peter, say no more :-)

[Tomerobber]

Yes, this is the third president that I have read about (in my quest to read something about ALL of them before I depart this plane of existence) and it seems little has changed despite the length of time involved between their terms of service . . . many issues are revisited with little being learned from previous experience.
Hmmm . . . perhaps the human animal is the slowest to learn on this planet.

[Peter]

Tomerobber wrote: "Yes, this is the third president that I have read about (in my quest to read something about ALL of them before I depart this plane of existence) and it seems little has changed despite the length ..."

Well.... we've learned *some* things. Civil rights are much advanced since Wilson's day.

Violence, over the course of history, has declined (see the magnificent
Steven Pinker.

Technology has clearly advanced.

People are living longer and, by and large, better.

However, the golden rule still seems to be more honored in the breach.

[Mike]

FrankH wrote: "Fascinating discussion from Cooper on the election of 1912 and, at the end of Chapter 8, on the real differences in orientation and outlook between the two progressives, TR and Wilson...So much of ..."

I appreciated the analysis and commentary that Cooper offers at the end of Chapter 8, too, Frank. He moved away from the narrative at a key point in Wilson's life and in the country's history to assess the possible "whys" of what happened. In a tome of this length, it's helpful to pause for reflection now and then rather than waiting until the general conclusion. I have an ingrained aversion to the kind of counter-factuals that Cooper posits - "What if...?" - although it's not so sharp when encountering them in a work of popular - if erudite - biography like this one.

[Mike]

Bryan wrote: "Peter wrote: "One thing I thought of in this chapter: Wilson, a profoundly religious man, had a secular style and a lot of formal education; Roosevelt, who was (from what we know, anyway) had an ev..."

As something of an American aristocrat, part of TR's personality leaned towards the "gentleman scholar" without the formal academic credentials that his station in life didn't require - reminiscent of the aristocratic dilettantism of the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment eras. He served as president of the American Historical Association, actually.

Wilson used academe as a ladder for social climbing and it seems as though the habits of mind acquired through immersion in that culture dominated his persona in a way that it didn't in TR - whose way in the world didn't depend as much on mastery of and recognition in a particular field.

I agree, then, that both TR and Wilson had top-flight minds, although oriented in different ways for different reasons. It would have been quite something had they ever debated, right.

[Peter]

Indeed, TR was very learned; possibly one of our most learned presidents. He read extensively and wrote quite extensively as well.

"Never let your schooling interfere with your education". - usually attributed to Mark Twain, but apparently first said by Grant Allen (see http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/09/...).

[Bryan]

Mike wrote: "FrankH wrote: "Fascinating discussion from Cooper on the election of 1912 and, at the end of Chapter 8, on the real differences in orientation and outlook between the two progressives, TR and Wilso..."

Me too. He seems to do this with just about every chapter.

[Bryan]

Mike wrote: "Bryan wrote: "Peter wrote: "One thing I thought of in this chapter: Wilson, a profoundly religious man, had a secular style and a lot of formal education; Roosevelt, who was (from what we know, any..."

Absolutely, Mike. I don't know enough about TR if he looked down on some or all academics. I think he would use the "ivory tower" argument on the campaign.

[Bryan]

Peter wrote: "Indeed, TR was very learned; possibly one of our most learned presidents. He read extensively and wrote quite extensively as well.

"Never let your schooling interfere with your education". - usu..."

Great quote, Peter. Wilson lived this kind of philosophy with all the outside reading he did while in school.