Does it seem strange to anyone else that Tywin Lannister never caught on to the relation ship between Jaime and Cersei?

[Patrick]

It seems strange to me that someone as intelligent as Lord Tywin could never have caught onto the incestuous relationship between Jaime and Cersei. I find it so ironic because Tywin lectures Tyrion about how his whoring has brought shame on House Lannister, but doesn't say the same about the accusations against Jaime and Cersei. It seems he is only concerned about the family honor when it comes to what Tyrion does. He never seeks to get to the bottom of the accusations against Jaime and Cersei (which were true). He seems to just assume the accusations are false. Why would he not at least want the truth? Maybe he just didn't want to know or he just didn't care? I would theorize on the latter. I mean come on, he married his cousin! That's incest too is it not? If anything, Jaime and Cersei brought more shame on House Lannister than Tyrion ever could have hoped. Thoughts?

[Paige]

Would you want to admit to yourself that your kids had a sexual relationship with each other? It may be more out of denial that anything. Or he could have been a pretty absent father and just didn't take much interest in his kids outside of Jaime's training. Cersei probably had Septons and handmaidens to take care of her needs, so Tywin wouldn't really have been involved in her everyday life.

[Carina]

I agree with Paige in that it could well have been denial. You saw how unwilling he was to accept Tyrion - but he couldn't ignore Tyrion in the way he could incestuous rumours.

[M.R.]

Also, as you mentioned, Tywin was very concerned with the house's honor. Tyrion shamed Lannister because his misconduct was very public. Everyone knew he hired prostitutes, saw him in public with them, and he made no secret of occasionally respecting them as people.
Cersei and Jaime were a lot more discreet. There were rumors, but nothing more.
If you base your concept of honor on public image, it's entirely possible he just flat didn't care what went on behind closed doors. It doesn't touch the family name if no one can prove it.
Plus Tyrion's dwarfism means that anything he does - ever - will automatically be perceived as depraved. Other men go whoring, but it's gross when a dwarf does it.

[Josh]

looking at tywin's vanity you can see many reasons why he wouldn't even deign to entertain the idea. the throne is indebt to him, he practcially owns the kingdom at this point. due to his initiative and uncompromising nature he has restored his family name and legacy as ones who are not to be triffled with. he is rich and feared and in a position of power. obviously, his family is perfection (excepting tyrion of course) so naturally people are going to be envious, low people are going to gossip, and the idea that his progeny would be so twisted and disturbed is so ludicrous it's laughable, especially when coming from people who have less money than he (which is everyone).

besides his animosity is so firmly directed at tyrion it's almost likely that even if he knew he'd still be more focused on his hatred of his imp son.

and the discretion is key, as has already been mentioned. tyrion is blatant. even when he feels he's being careful he's still an imp. it can't be helped to be conspicuous. and people always seem to find out what he's doing because he is so universally untrusted and unloved.

if you take the scenes at the end of the book with tywin you can see exactly how much he values presenting a different face in public than in private, and how much discretion and subtletly may have afforded tyrion a better lot in life. if tywin does even entertain a doubt about who is the father of cersei's children, the fact that it cannot possibly be proven probably satisfies him.

[Mitali]

Patrick wrote: "I mean come on, he married his cousin! That's incest too is it not?"

No. At least, in Westeros, it's not considered incest. A large number of real-world societies don't consider marriage between first cousins incest either - in fact, in some societies, it's actively encouraged. Brother-sister incest, on the other hand, is rarely accepted in real world societies, with a few extreme examples like the Ptolemaic dynasty in ancient Egypt (on which the Targaryens' incest is based). There are good biological reasons for this difference.

[Robin]

Some very good points made - there are personal and political reasons Tywin would be in denial. But ultimately, I think it's just prejudice. Tywin hates Tyrion for being a dwarf and blames him for his mother's death. He will find any reason he can, no matter how hypocritical, to criticize and torture Tyrion. Incest aside, even if Jamie whored around publicly like Tyrion does, I'm sure Tywin would look the other way. Or perhaps he would chide Jamie but certainly he wouldn't be as harsh on him as he is with Tyrion because Jamie has so many redeeming qualities that one annoying flaw could be overlooked whereas in Tywin's eyes, Tyrion has zero redeeming qualities.

[Ed]

I think for some things where your son / daughter / relative is doing something so horrific that you really don't want to know. I think Tywin is ruthless and smart enough to realize what is going on but his conscious mind has to deny it. Castigating and 'hating' Tyrion's whoring and dwarfism might be Tywin's way of redirecting his anger at Cersei and Jaime's incest. Also, Jaime is his heir so Tywin must support him and ignore the behavior that doesn't fit in with his view of how the heir to his house should act.

[Lesley]

Actually, Jaime isn't his heir - Kingsguard can't inherit.

[Gary]

I think Tywin knows. He just doesn't care about it much. In fact, he might even endorse it to some extent as it is a royal prerogative of the Targaryens, and he's always had his eye on the throne for his family. He'd prefer it remain secret simply for political reasons, but I don't think he has any moral qualms about it.

[Ed]

I agree with Gary - and frankly being a Kingsguard takes second place to heir to Casterly Rock and the throne.

[Gary]

Yeah, one of the themes that emerges in the books is whether those characters (Jaime and Jon Snow most obviously) who have sworn an oath are going to keep that oath or reject it in favor of position, sex and wealth. Jaime could, no doubt, resign from the King's Guard to take on Casterly Rock or the throne of Westeros if either is "thrust" upon him.

[Derick Lawson]

He also worked for a king who was the product of inbreeding. It's not such a strange thing in that case.

[Angie]

I don't think that Tywin had much to do with the day to day work of looking after his children.Didn't it say in one of the books that after the mother died, one of the many aunts looked after them.I think the kingsguard are allowed to be with a woman but not allowed marriage and children.Twyin May feel that Jamie could just resign his position, but I'm sure Jamie never saw it that way.

[Lesley]

He did say on TV that he sat down with Jaime for four hours a day until he learned to read, though.

[Gary]

Tywin seems to know an awful lot about the particulars of Tyrion's sex life. It would be strange if it didn't know what was going on with his other two children. Tyrion is the family scapegoat, particularly for Tywin. In part, I think his outright sadistic treatment of Tyrion has to do with him diverting his feelings about Jaime and Cersei.

[Angie]

Maybe, but Tyrion does flaunt his sex life though doesn't he.Though he may be like that because of the girl he married when he was a teenager. He tells of how his father took her of him and gave her to his soldiers to use in front of him.Jamie and cersei had to be very sneaky especially when she married robert.I think that by the second book he starts to tell people about there love life, saying that if the Targarians could marry their sisters so could he.

[Kristin]

(view spoiler)[Tywin deserves what he gets from Tyrion. I was happier about Tywin's death that Joffreys. (hide spoiler)]

[Angie]

I was happy that both of them died. The way that Tyrian killed his dad though was pretty cool.and can you imagine how bad Joffrey would gotten as an adult. He was bad enough as a kid.

[Amber]

Ed wrote: "I agree with Gary - and frankly being a Kingsguard takes second place to heir to Casterly Rock and the throne."

Uh, the only reason Jaime was even made part of the Kingsgaurd was so that Tywin wouldn't have him as his heir anymore. So I'm going to have to disagree that his vows come second to being heir of Casterly Rock. Jaime wouldn't take it anyway in my opinion, he never wanted it.

Tywin seems to know an awful lot about the particulars of Tyrion's sex life. It would be strange if it didn't know what was going on with his other two children

Not that strange to me. Cersei is married, so theres not reason to feel concern about her sex life. Jamie is a kingsgaurdsmen and thus shouldn't be having any sex whatsoever.
Tyrion is not only Tywin's heir, he's unmarried. It's Tywin's job to rectify that really, so keeping abreast of his sexual excursions is part of it.

[Gary]

I think you're off on the particulars, Amber. Jaime comments that he only joined the Kingsguard to be close to Cersei. Sex happens both inside and outside marriage pretty frequently in GoT, including Cersei's, which is technically a crime against the state if you're married to the king. People can/have been put to death for that. Tywin himself has (view spoiler)[sex with prostitutes (hide spoiler)] so his attitude towards Tyrion's proclivities is hypocritical, and in general the kind of things Tyrion does aren't actually all that serious compared to the charges against Jaime/Cersei, so Tywin's attempt to control Tyrion has more to do with that son's role in the family than what he actually does.

[Amber]

Yes Jaime desired to join the Kingsgaurd to be close to Cersei and also (primarily) avoid marriage with Lysa Tully, that is not however, why he was accepted as a gaurdsmen. A person can want to be kingsguard all he likes but to actually be one the King has to accept you and the King only accepted Jaime to deprive Tywin.
This is also why Jaime is the last Kingsgaurd left in Kings Landing when the Sack hits, because he is keeping Jaime as political prisoner as well. (Though he never directly announces it)
It goes into it a bit on the wiki page if you feel like reading it for yourself (I like doing that so I can keep things in context)
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/...

I'm not trying to say sex doesn't happen outside of marriage, just that his other two children have more reason to keep that sort of thing on the DL and it would probably be noticed if Tywin was always getting involved with that sort of thing, so he may have to do this from afar. I agree it has everything to do with Tyrion's role in the family, not to mention he is the youngest and unmarried, so Tywin is still kinda responsible for him. I do however completely agree Tywin is a damn hypocrite.

[Adria]

I think it definitely denial. I think he knew but he wouldn't let himself do anything about. He tried to remarry Cersei, and move Jamie to take him birth right at Casterly Rock, I was thinking the motivation for both was at least in part to separate them.

[Christina]

I can't find it in myself to say that he didn't know. I never liked the guy, but I acknowledged his brilliance as a leader and his astuteness, and I just don't see his lackey of a brother catching on to it while he remained completely oblivious. In my mind, it's only ever been a question of whether or not he cared that it was happening.

[Felicia]

I think he does know about it but is very pious and doesn't want anyone to know he knows including Cersei and Jaime. Because Cersei and Jaime are both stubborn and if they knew Tywin knew they might try something like "the Targearians could marry brother to sister! why not us?" And Tywin does not want to have that discussion, but I believe Tywin is too smart not to catch on.

[Laura]

I totally agree, Tywin was a major hypocrite. Remember when Varys told Tyrion that the tunnel connecting the Tower of the Hand and the brothel was made for another Hand of the King? Who was Hand of the King before, long enough for that to be built? *wink wink*

Tywin was all about appearances. He constantly scolded Tyrion for his public whoring because Tyrion makes it public. It all started with Tytos Lannister (oh Tywin, when you made your dad's mistress do a walk of shame... if you'd ever imagined... smh).

Tywin was all "do as I say, not as I do -at least in public". He would force his children to marry whomever he wanted for political reasons, yet he married whom he wanted because he was in love with his cousin.

He must have known about the "brotherly love", or at least suspected. Maybe part denial and part "oh well, as long as they keep it hidden". He only thought of sending Cersei back to the Rock when these rumors spread.

[Laura]

There's also the fact that Cersei was hyper paranoid about anyone finding out. She wouldn't even let Jaime so much as hold the kids because "how would it look". Jon Arryn lived in the same city for like 15 years and only started putting the pieces together in the months before he died. It's easy to say "Why didn't he notice?" when they're so obvious to us, but the audience is already in the know and is privy to scenes to Cersei at least would've taken care to keep exceptionally private.

Beyond that, Tywin never had the opportunity to see anything to be suspicious about. When Jaime was with Cersei in King's Landing, Tywin was at Casterly Rock, and when Tywin came to King's Landing, Jaime was a hostage. They were only very briefly all three of them in the same city and Jaime almost immediately fell into a rift with his father, and equally only had the one sexual interaction with Cersei (while Tywin was meeting with Mace Tyrell I think?) and then the one almost-moment with Cersei in his room when he rebuffed her. I think it's said that Cersei avoids him after that or something? Basically, there are only like two opportunities for Tywin to actually see any evidence supporting the incest claims and he was busy during them. Not to mention that the allegations are started while a war for the throne is going on by a dude who would directly benefit from people believing them. Even if Tywin had any suspicions, he couldn't be seen so much as giving the accusation a second's thought or it would absolutely destroy his war efforts and any claim Joffrey and later Tommen stood on.

[David]

Tywin is a control freak, completely obsessed with the family name and the continuation and advancement of its prestige and power. Jamie, in his mind, is the future and therefore he is blind to his relationship with his sister. Furthermore, it seems few people truly knew about the incestuous relationship and Tywin, not being in Kings Landing for years, add to my ability to accept Tywin as truly being unaware of the relationship. Seems the mother knew...

[Ad.costas]

Tywin surely knows. Martin keeps much of his personality and schemes hidden and suddenly surprise!!!! Red Wedding or Shae naked in his bed. Even though he's dead more surprises involving him might be in store.
If Tyrion is truly Aerys' son as it is speculated in a popular theory (which I think probable), Jaime of the Kingsguard is the only real heir he has. So his inbred grandchildren are quite welcome as Jaime is not allowed to inherit his seat AND a Lannister is on the throne. I believe Tyrion is not his son and that is the reason why he won't let him have Casterly Rock. Reading the World of Ice and Fire I noticed that many Targaryen babies died in childbirth, mostly because they were deformed. It is exaggerated (they had wings or tails etc), still Tyrion fits the profile.
Also I gather Tywin was not one to rush and react, he rather bid his time and planned the next move and waited until the time was right. Think of how long he waited to destroy and take revenge on Aerys. Of course he tried to wipe all Targaryens off the face of the earth, as is expected of a vengeful person like him. So we don't know what else he was planning, but of one thing I am certain. He knew.

[Hannah]

Adria wrote: "I think it definitely denial. I think he knew but he wouldn't let himself do anything about. He tried to remarry Cersei, and move Jamie to take him birth right at Casterly Rock, I was thinking the ..."

I totally agree. Unfortunately for him he failed.

[Jc]

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