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The Ice-Shirt
The Ice-Shirt - TVP 2013
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Discussion - Week Two - The Ice-Shirt - Part II & III, p. 83 - 128
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Some rather disjointed observations on this week's pensum:Part II approaches Vinland from another tangent, namely the Inuit rather than the Norse, and deals with a different split, namely between male and female, rather than nature and man. Again, the surety with which Vollmann hits the tone of his modely is nothing short of astonishing, I'm starting to think he might be one of the stylistically most versatile authors around.
A lot more present-day intrusion here, including a short chapter that jumps not only in time but in place - or then maybe not. I suck at geography and for all I know San Franciso might actually lie right in the middle of Vinland, which definitely would give this chapter an added poignancy.
Lots of shirts here, confirming that this metaphor for assuming a foreign nature / culture / essence is one of the central themes of this novel (if not the central theme, if not of the whole series).
Not sure what to make of the Black Hands - but then, it seems to be presented as a mystery?
And again, lots and lots of love for Vollmann's writing - through all the various voices he assumes (which should probably be: manifold style-shirts that he wears) there always is a underlying unique Vollmannishness to his prose which really shines in the bits of Greenland travelogue that conclude Part II. "Intense" is a term I tend to overuse when it comes to writing I like, but it seems to fit Vollmann's descriptions and the way they get under your skin (in an entirely good way).
Part III is, I suppose, where the Norse and Inuit tangents meet, and I expect from now on will run alongside each other in one way or another towards Vinland.
Larou wrote: "Some rather disjointed observations on this week's pensum:Part II approaches Vinland from another tangent, namely the Inuit rather than the Norse, and deals with a different split, namely between..."
Larou: The black hands: A woman- and there is no way I am able to follow all the characters names, sorry-greased her hands black to touch the man who came unknown to her in the night repeatedly raping her. He would be left with black marks from her hands and be discovered. Could this be a metaphor for coming events of quests to uncover the truth?
Honestly Larou, despite Vollmann's exquisite and magnetic prose I am not able to follow the connecting themes through all the changing events. Yet, I can't stop reading. Your posts, so clear and accessible, unify the readings where I have been at a loss. So, I want to thank you and encourage you to keep posting. Long posts are good!
I thank you too Larou for keeping me from total confusion!
Oh lol, I'm getting all flustered and embarrassed now - Stephen and Ellie, you're both very welcome and I'm certainly glad someone found my scribbled notes even slightly useful, but I really have to add that they don't even begin to do justice to the richness of Vollmann's writing and are at best faint scratchings on the surface; I'm certain that there is much, much more to discover if one digs just a bit deeper, like all great literature The Ice Shirt requires (and rewards) repeated and close reading.
Don't get embarrassed! But you really have helped me access Vollman's rich work.
Some quick hits on my break (apologies to Larou who has already covered some of this ground (and better)).I really liked the elder brother and younger brother Eskimo creation story. About time we start to really see the other half of this culture clash.
Wearing the white shirt pp. 112. I was blown away by that story when I read it.
Vollmann's art- - (ex. Pp 94)- I think Vollmann's art is somewhat amateurish, but I also think it adds to the story. My only complaint is that given the level of academic scholarship that Vollmann puts into the Ice-Shirt, I think he could have gone the extra mile and labeled the plant drawings with their scientific names.
I liked the juxtaposition of modern day Greenlanders with our ancient tales. I felt like Vollmann got a little lazy with San Francisco Transvestites 1987 (pp. 91). Not so much because I couldn't see the connection to the creation story, but that it felt like a last minute add-in based on his later writing. Surely there was at least one transvestite in Greenland who could have interviewed. As a result, I found that to be the most jarring jump in the book so far.
Mod
Although he referred to them as "transvestites", the last paragraph (p.92) says "...these women would let you kiss them and put your penis in the slits where their penises used to be..." which would suggest post-op transgendered women. I matched that up with the mythical sex-change operation on page 91, "Then she bent over Younger Brother and did something to him, but he did not know what it was." and "When he awoke, Younger Brother felt a warm wetness between his legs that had never been there before." And so the juxtaposition fits the rest of Part II okay for me, since I haven't read any of his prostitute books yet. The jumping around between the ages is I suppose just a way to show how not much changes over time - struggles between men and women, and struggles between indigenous people and later colonizers.
I got the connection to the story, I just felt like he could have found that same connection with an example from Greenland. Out of all of the modern day vignettes it didn't seem as organic. It seemed like he was forcing it a little.I completely agree with your comment, "The jumping around between the ages is I suppose just a way to show how not much changes over time - struggles between men and women, and struggles between indigenous people and later colonizers. "
I especially liked your discussion with our new Danish BP member regarding relations between Danes and Greenlanders. Do you think it would be OK to move some of that into this thread? I believe their name was Tine, but can't be sure without checking.
Mod
Maybe he couldn't find a native Greenlander who could afford a sex-change operation, whereas in S.F., you can't swing a dead moggy without hitting a tranny...
I'll check with Tine and see if I can repost over here. She likely won't mind.
What I'm getting most from the book so far is Vollmann's overall worldview about humans and human conflict; namely that, despite surface differences, we all put our pants on one leg at a time, so why so much conflict?
Jim wrote: "James wrote: "I got the connection to the story, I just felt like he could have found that same connection with an example from Greenland. Out of all of the modern day vignettes it didn't seem as o..."Yes. But my question is that since these people had to battle with such enormous obstacles posed by nature for survival did that, increase their need for power over others, decrease the time to tend an internal life to the degree available to us today? While essential human nature has remained similar or the same is Vollmann saying that circumstances changed-what?-personality characteristics, the way that human nature was limited, expressed? In The Royal Family Vollmann was quite explicit in demonstrating the profound affect of external circumstances on the human psyche.
Mod
I haven't read TRF yet.
Is it possible to not tend to one's internal life? Storms don't last forever, and in the dark, waiting for sleep to come, wouldn't thoughts and conflicts and dilemmas arise no matter what the temperature? And not all people on the planet today live lives free from enormous obstacles including daily threats from disease, famine and armed conflict, so there's that...
Keep asking this question because maybe I've misunderstood.
James wrote: "I got the connection to the story, I just felt like he could have found that same connection with an example from Greenland."Actually, I'm not sure about that - the way I read it, this passage gave us a brief glimpse of the Utopian potential still inherent in America/Vinland (which [to Europeans and non-native Americans, at least] has always been far more than just a geographical place), where a person can be whatever he/she wants to be.
And I don't think that The Ice-Shirt is about people staying the same through the ages - I think the contemporary parts are more about nature staying the same, even after all those centuries (and they do seem to consist mostly of nature descriptions).
With Gudrid and Freydis we are presented with two extremes - one person who never changes and one who is in constant change, and I would argue that to a large part what the novel is about is the tension between being what one wants and what societe/the environment forces one to be, between the freedom to wear whatever shirt one wants and the constraints a shirt places on its wearer. And interwoven with that is the question of when your own freedom starts to impinge on others, not just humans but nature, too - the Ice-Shirt, as I understood it, being something that freezes, fixes and stifles change, not only in its wearer but also in others by covering everything with a sheet of immovable ice.
Larou wrote: "James wrote: "I got the connection to the story, I just felt like he could have found that same connection with an example from Greenland."Actually, I'm not sure about that - the way I read it, t..."
Yes. This is the metaphor-message I have been looking for and missed it. I am so used to the literary fiction of a character developing over time, the planted metaphors leading to a core meaning, that I got lost here. You are absolutely right Larou. This re-direction will make reading the rest of the book more interesting and exciting.
Interesting. I figured that Gudrid and Freydis were representative of Good vs. Evil, or at least Christianity vs. Paganism.Change is definitely a major theme with the shirt motif, but I agree with Jim that the things that drove people to do things like settle Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland the Good are the same today as they were then. I don't think human motivation has inherently changed from the days of Freydis. I think her driving motivation is insatiable greed. In fact, greed seems to be the driver for a lot of the action in the novel.
To me the clash of cultures is the over arching theme of this novel and I assume that will continue throughout the series. I thought the present day material reinforced that theme given that you still have a huge gulf between those two cultures even in cases of mixed ancestry.
It seems to me the book can be seen in so many different layers; perhaps that is its genius.Yes, I agree Gudrid and Freydis can be seen as good vs. evil. However, Gudrid has been loved while Freydis was shunned from an early age. While the book so far doesn't pay a great deal of attention to characters being conscious and interested in their internal lives, it is relevant. Is Freydis innately greedy or a product of being unloved. How aware is she of her internal tickings, therefore able to possibly change. The clash of cultures is certainly in the book and in our world but is it a product of fear? I remember President Bush after 9/11 on T.V. a number of times invoking fear and the public responding with shouts of nationalism. This has been invoked successfully through history. It always works. Vollmann's characters lived in constant fear of being annihilated by invasion or nature's strength and indifference. So to bring my ramble to a close, if there is still anyone still out there and awake, the Norse had every reason to fear and be feared and the human response is violence as a form of protection. Leaders over time gradually understood this and honed techniques to invoke it at their will to control and direct their populace. Unloved people did and still do turn to greed to cover their insistent painful wound. The responses are the same over time but they are responses to external events, opening the possibility we can learn gradually in our slow evolution and yet change, or this is our innate character and we are stuck with it and its cycle of endless repetition. I'm exhausted but apparently the book has revved me up more than I realized.
Mod
especially all that burning people while they slept stuff...
Jim wrote: "Stephen wrote: "the Norse had every reason to fear and be feared.."especially all that burning people while they slept stuff..."
Read that part Jim just before going to bed. Not recommended.
Generally, this book is not exactly bedtime reading. Too exciting (amongst other qualities).
In general, I think its fair to say these folks would have frowned on the advent of Marquess of Queensberry Rules.
What is loneliness? Does the lonely space between two rocks vanish when spanned by a spider web?
In Part II, Black Hands, Vollmann takes us back in time to Inuit mythology and the story of Elder Brother and Younger Brother. He hops around a bit, then gives us a tour of The Bloks and Emilie’s apartment.
Part III, Vinland, gives a few more fragments and an intro to Part IV.
To avoid spoilers, please restrict your comments to page 1 – 128.