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Group Read - Memories of Ice
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MOI - Chapter Twelve - NO SPOILERS
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Chapter 13 is posted for comments.
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Toc has gained the attention of the Pannion Seer - as K'rul warned Envy in chapter seven
Take great care of him, Lady. The scarred and the flawed are what the Crippled God seeks in his servants. I shall endeavour to keep Toc’s soul from the Chained One’s grasp, but, please, maintain your guard
But not only is Toc's ruined eye an attraction - Toc is seems is possessed by a wolf spirit/god.
‘Ah, now I see,’ the voice said, though the mouth did not move. ‘Indeed, that is not a human’s eye. A wolf’s in truth....
...Ah, I see the hunger flare in your wolf’s eye. There is indeed a beast within you
...Did you think you could reach out to your wolf kin without my knowing it? So, the one within you readies for its rebirth.’
The one within me?
‘Alas,’ the Seer went on, ‘the Beast Throne is vacant – neither you nor that beast god can match my strength.
Whoa Whoa. Time out! Toc is possessed by a wolf, a beast god, waiting to be reborn, and their just so happens to be a "beast throne" vacant?
Time to go back and have another look at chapter one. Toc after being thrown into the chaos warren by Hairlock, is found by a one eyed wolf, who happens to have worshippers
The wolf recalled little of the other worlds that existed beyond Chaos. It knew nothing of the mortals who worshipped it as they would a god. Yet a certain knowledge had come to it, an instinctive sensitivity that told it of ... possibilities. Of potentials. Of choices now available to the wolf, with the discovery of this frail mortal
Hmm, I notice this innocent looking quote as Toc is being led up to meet the Pannion Seer
A single ramp led up to Outlook’s inner gate, steep and sheer-sided. Human bones littered the trenches to either side. They ascended.
At some point during his conversation with the Seer, Toc finds himself mind linked to Baaljaag and is able to see Lady Envy and co through the Ay's eyes. This inadvertently gives Toc away
And then we get that chilling scene at the end where Toc is in the arms of the K'Chain Che'Malle matron being crushed then healed then crushed over and over again. And the Seer had willingly subjected himself to that torture prior
You are worthy to take my place in that sweet, motherly hug. Oh, she is mad. Mindless with insanity, yet the sparks of need reside within her. Such need. Beware, or it will devour you, as it did me – until I grew so foul that she spat me back out
Now lets go back and reread the poem at the beginning of the chapter. A picture of Seer finding the mother
In the Mountain’s Heart she waited,
dreaming of peace, so deeply curled
around her grief, when he found her,
the man’s search was done,
and he took upon himself her every scar
for power’s embrace is a love
that wounds.
Rise of the Domin
Bear in mind that the K'Chain Che'malle matron was the soul that had been sealing the rent in Morn in the prologue. Thousands of years of agony and tortured existence has done something to her mind. Perfect pickings for the Crippled God.
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The Seer’s back was to him, suffused with Jaghut sorcery – the creature within the old man’s carcass was now entirely visible, thin, tall, hairless, tinted green. But no, there’s more – grey roots roped down from the body’s legs, chaotic power, plunging down through the stone floor, twisting with something like pain or ecstacy. The Jaghut draws on another sorcery, something older, far more deadly than Omtose Phellack.
The Seer, after losing three armies of thousands, thrown against Lady Envy and co decides to take the direct approach
Three engagements, three broken armies, thousands dead, the rest attempting to flee but always caught by Lady Envy’s relentless wrath.
‘that mortal armies are insufficient to the task of defeating this threat that approaches from the south. Accordingly, I have with-drawn my forces, and will now dismiss the enemy with my own hand.’
Memories resurrected ... this is Jaghut sorcery—
‘Can you defeat it, Tool?’ Lady Envy asked.
The T’lan Imass turned to her. ‘I am clanless. Weakened. Lady, unless you can negate it, we shall have to cross as best we can, and it will build all the while, striving to deny us.’
Envy and Tool are also puzzled by the Jaghut/K'Chain Alliance
‘K’Chain Che’Malle . . . and Jaghut together. Is there precedence for such an alliance?’
‘There is not,’ Tool said.
They are bound by pain and torment to each other and the crippled god
Mod
LOL at the ascending bit. Every time that word is used in innocence you're all over it. Just like if the word luck is used, everyone starts jumping on Oponn.
Ok, so now we have the current God of War, Fener, a Boar god, in trouble and possible in the mortal world (in hiding?) and Trake/Treach the Tiger god (God of war previously?) now ascending and making an attempt (possibly) for the empty throne. On top of all that we have a new potential God of War, the wolf god, (currently unnamed) who is using (how much?) Toc. But the young Toc is kind of in a mind bending pickle.
So the unseating of Fener is causing quite a stirring amongst long forgotten gods.
Another question, the Grey Swords are Feners, so what happens to their beliefs and goals should Fener lose his throne? If they are still worshipping him, can he be killed?
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That is an interesting question
Lee wrote: "If they are still worshipping him, can he be killed?
I tend to think his mortality has already been effected by Heboric and the events of last book. He'd still be hard to kill though, I imagine.
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But there is talk that the three positions (or one of them, anvil?) haven't be filled for a long time. So Fener must have had an inkling of what was coming.
The reason why he must be communicating with at least the destraint was Karnakas (sp?) told Itvokian to get it on with Hetan to gain knowledge.
Gods, I confused myself with that rambling.
So what I am trying to get at, is, what does it mean for a god to descend and still be worshipped? If said worship is big enough (Fener had quite a following) why can't hoary old god ascend again?
maybe I should have just said that.
Mod
Which was probably a lesser of two evils. Now what does Envy know about what Toc has gotten himself into? I think back to the discussion between K'Rul and Envy and I think K'rul knew this was coming. I think Toc was ordained to get to the heart of the Domin Seers power. I don't have access to the book at the moment. Be worth reviewing their little chat.
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I'm not sure that worship is necessary for ascension. I'm not sure as yet, if worship even contributes to ascension. Worship would perhaps extend an ascendants influence but I'm not sure if we have seen an example yet of an ascension caused by worshippers.
In any case, Fener has been locked out of his warren by the strange warren influencing Heboric. I wonder if killing Heboric would allow him back in
Yet K'rull lost power as a result of losing his worshippers, CG is gaining power as he attracts more,,, and (view spoiler) so I do think the worshippers are very important to the gods. Not necessary to ascend, as seen by Kellanved and Dancer. Do we know for sure that the wolf is a god of war? We don't know much yet about the Hold of the Beast except the thrones are empty, but was it for war?
I don't think Trake was a god before, everyone keeps saying he was a hero, then he swerved into a beast as a Sole Taken and is only now returning to full consciousness. Is he then part of the Hold of the Beast? I'm kind of murky on the past details of Trake, when was he alive as a man, what battles did he partake in?
SO MUCH TO KEEP TRACK OF!!!! Thank goodness for you all!
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That is true, though I would suggest they lose and gain "influence" and how much they can affect the mortal world.
But K'rul didn't lose ascendancy when he lost worshipper. He didn't become "mortal," and then back to immortal afterwards. Both he and the CG were still immortal and ascendant beings regardless of how many worshipers. I think
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Lori write: "We don't know much yet about the Hold of the Beast except the thrones are empty, but was it for war?"
The Hold of the Beasts was the Imass spirit world before they became undead - from chapter 5
The Hold of the Beasts . . . long before the First Throne . . . this was the heart of the T’lan Imass’s power – their spirit world, when they were still flesh and blood, when they still possessed spirits to be worshipped and revered. Long before they initiated the Ritual of Tellann . . . and so came to outlast their own pantheon ...
And the beast Hold has two thrones
With an effort he pulled his eyes from the carved Hold of Beasts – but why were there two thrones and not just one?
Who, I wonder, will ascend to those two ancient, long-forgotten thrones?
Trake wasn't part of the Beast Hold. He was part of the First Empire (the human one, not the Imass one). We learned about them last book. An Empire that experimented with shapeshifting as a path to or alternative to ascension. They went too far, unleashing sorcery too powerful to control, shattering a warren to pieces and even melting part of the land before the Imass stepped in and put and end to it.
In chapter seven
I am Treach – one of many names. Trake, the Tiger of Summer, the Talons of War. Silent Hunter. I was there at the end, one of the few survivors once the T’lan Imass were done with us. Brutal, merciful slaughter. They had no choice – I see that now, though none of us were prepared to forgive. Not then. The wounds were too fresh.
Gods, we tore a warren to pieces on that distant continent. Turned the eastlands into molten stone that cooled and became something that defied sorcery. The T’lan Imass sacrificed thousands to cut away the cancer we had become. It was the end, the end of all that promise, all that bright glory. The end of the First Empire.
I'm also inferring from this passage that this tells us how Otataral came about - note "Turned the eastlands into molten stone that cooled and became something that defied sorcery."
Mod
Speaking of Treach remember this :
'Only by my talents, to answer your first query. I am no mage, and I work alone. I was fortunate, however, in acquiring a priest's blessings on a set of three ivory torcs—'
'What god?'
'Treach, the Tiger of Summer.'
Picker sneered. 'That's not a god, you fool. Treach is a First Hero, a demigod, a Soletaken ascendant—'
'A new temple has been sanctified in his name,'
So if Treach is to make a come back and become God of War, I guess Picker is going to know about it.
Mod
and I wonder what those ivory torcs do? Kung Fu tiger style?
Another yep about the spoiler.Ah yes, so Treach was part of the First Empire - I assume Kallor's?
Thanks for t he reminder about the Beast Hold belonging to the spirits of the Imass before they became T'lan. I forgot that, it explained the affinity between Tool and the aye.
Mod
Yes Treach was part of the First Empire.
But that wasn't Kallor's empire. "The First Empire" was on Seven Cities. Kallor's Empire was on Jacuruku - but the two were contemporaries.
In Chapter 2
The First Empire had risen, on a continent half a world away from where K’rul now walked. An empire of humans, born from the legacy of the T’lan Imass, from whom it took its name.
But it had not been alone for long. Here, on Jacuruku, in the shadow of long-dead K’Chain Che’Malle ruins, another empire had emerged. Brutal, a devourer of souls, its ruler was a warrior without equal.
The Malazan Wiki did have Kallor as High King of the First Empire - I didn't know anyone could edit those Wikis...till now. Fixed.
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I hated that part, I hate the suffering Toc goes through.David - glad others got confused. So there were 3 ancient empires!
I can't find Jacuruku, help please!
Lee wrote: "So then Fener has lost his ascendency, yet it appears he is still communicating with his worshippers. I don't think that we know when he assigned people to the sword, Destraint and Anvil positions...."All three hadn't been filled for a long time. Quick Ben mentioned that, though he also seemed to be assuming that their titles were fake if i remember well...
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Continents of Korelri and Jacuruku, in the Time of Dying 119,736 years before Burn’s Sleep (three years after the Fall of the Crippled God)
I've just replaced the old Malazan map with a newer and supposedly more accurate(according to Erikson himself) fan drawn world map. Jacuruku is in the south
Holy shit! And there's our time period! Except the fall is way way before Burn's Sleep! Which means that Burn was conscious for the chaining. Unless the fall happened before the chaining, but not that long. But I thought the chaining happened sooner? Argh I'm a real stickler for consistent chronology and get frustrated when I'm confused. Especially when u think of FoD. I'm determined to figure it all out this time. :)Thanks for the map, off to investigate.
Lori, Burn definitely was conscious for the chaining, that was explained in ch5 when Paran is discoving all that"She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed... and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep."
I was even under the impression that Burn was amongst the ones who decided to chain him to her, but i can't find that back now - so i might be wrong here
Ah yes it's all coming together for me finally, jeez it's about time!
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And, K’rul reflected, grief. It would be a long time before the foreign god could begin to reclaim the remaining fragments of its life, and so begin to unveil its nature. K’rul feared that day’s arrival. From such a shattering could only come madness.
But the chaining still must have happened before "Burn's sleep" because the whole reason she went to sleep was to fight the crippled god's poison - and he was using the chains linking them as a conduit for that poisoning. (view spoiler)
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regarding the quote, i chopped off a bit much earlier, so here is a more complete version of chapter 5.--
The image of a sleeping woman, as seen from above, dominated the flagstone. Her flesh seemed to spin and swirl. _Paran slowly lowered himself into a crouch, his eyes narrowing. Her skin was depthless, revealing ever more detail as the captain's vision was drawn ever closer.
Skin, not skin. Forests, sweeps of bedrock, the seething floor of the oceans, fissures in the flesh of the world—she is Burn! She is the Sleeping Goddess.
Then he saw the flaw, the marring a dark, suppurating welt. Waves of nausea swept through
Paran, yet he would not look away. There, at the wound's heart, a humped, kneeling, broken figure.
Chained. Chained to Burn's own flesh. From the figure, down the length of the chains, poison flowed
into the Sleeping Goddess.
She sensed the sickness coming, sinking claws into her. Sensed… and chose to sleep. Less than two thousand years ago, she chose to sleep. She sought to escape the prison of her own flesh, in order to do battle with the one who was killing that flesh. She - oh gods above and below! She made of herself a weapon! Her entire spirit, all its power, into a single forging… a hammer, a hammer capable of breaking… breaking anything. And Burn then found a man to wield it…
Caladan Brood.
Mod
That was the "Fall" of the crippled god. Not the chaining :) - I got Kallor and the fall and the chaining so mixed up first read so I'm trying to pay particular attention this read.
aarrgh, you're right. i even went back to read the prologue because i was convinced that was the chaining, but it's not!
looks like i had kallor and the chaining mixed up too!
so much information! i need an encyclopedia in my head that gets automatically and error-free updates after every chapter :)
Looking forward to it, David. Now I want to go back to Paran in the warren, do you remember where it was?
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So, when Toc is getting an impression of the Seer, he senses not only Jaghut and Omtose Phellack but also TCG and his Chaos warren.We also know the Matron was ripe pickings for TCG. So, when the Matron was released from the rent I wonder who came to her? TCG himself? Or in the form of a Jaghut? So, in composition, the Seer is part corpse (the outer shell), part Jaghut, yet controlled by the TCG. I am curious to understand how much distinction remains between these beings.
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By the end this can be answered a lot more firmly. But for the Jaghut and corpse at least we have
Entity and corpse both flinched back at his words, a blurring of shapes that hurt Toc’s eye. Two beings, the living hiding behind the dead..
Lee wrote: "So then Fener has lost his ascendency, yet it appears he is still communicating with his worshippers."The events of this book are happening concurrently with the events of DG. I believe that at this point Heboric hasn't reached the jade statue and Fener is still in his warren. There is a moment later when his ejection from it is felt by the Grey Swords.
David Sven wrote: "The Malazan Wiki did have Kallor as High King of the First Empire - I didn't know anyone could edit those Wikis...till now. Fixed."Glad to see that you're on top of it David.
I'm not sure that worship is necessary for ascension. I'm not sure as yet, if worship even contributes to ascension. Worship would perhaps extend an ascendants influence but I'm not sure if we have seen an example yet of an ascension caused by worshippers.Last book I thought about that. Mainly the part that worship can contributes to ascension, when Coltain breaks the nose of the almost ascendant Gesler. Everybody was in awe as to how he managed to punch him. Coltaine was highly respected, and his followers looked at him as a god. He was kinda worshiped. And Duiker never understood Coltaine completely.
Ben wrote: "I'm not sure that worship is necessary for ascension. I'm not sure as yet, if worship even contributes to ascension. Worship would perhaps extend an ascendants influence but I'm not sure if we have..."I think there could be something to that. Of course, it's always hard to tell causes from effects.
im confused. i was under the (wrong) impression that the wolf inside of Toc was Trake.i assumed Toc was able to see Trake's death because they were connected from the warren of chaos.how then was Toc able to see Trake's death?
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I have a bad feeling about this whole 'Toc being captured by a demented ancient dinosaur-creature' situation you guys... Okay so the Jaghut tyrant has used an extremely powerful, effective spell to convince people that he's human as part of a complex plot to establish himself as the ruler and spiritual leader of this empire... but keeps his Jaghut name? For reals? Can we assume that this was masterminded by the CG in order to draw the Imasss into the conflict (probably as part of his plan to gauge his enemies strength, possibly as part of some kind of trap)?
I thought the whole Pannion 'war' against Envy's group was pretty stupid tbh. The fact that a tiny party can destroy every force sent against them makes the Domin pretty ridiculous. Envy isn't even bothering with the whole stealth/disguise/subterfuge that parties like this usually employ behind enemy lines in fantasy. That's pretty much a massive FU to the Domin. Also armies and soldiers seem to be a really important part of this series but what's even the point of their existence if the entire armed forces (less those who have been diverted to the siege at Capustan) of a powerful empire can be completely poned by a zombie, 2 dogs, 3 mask-wearing quasi-samurai and a sorceress? And to continue the whole 'military history nerd obsessed with realism' theme from my last post about the Tanescowri: the references to Toc and the Seguleh being able to hold small armies of professional soldiers at bay is straight-up ridonc. No matter how good a swordsman someone is they can't stand up to an army in battle formation. They'd probably be riddled with arrows or crossbow bolts before even getting within stab range and if not would be quickly surrounded by pikemen and poked to death (an inauspicious way to go).
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Rise of the Domin
Scintalla of Bastion (1129-1164)