Using real persons as characters in a time travel story. Yes or Not?

[Peter]

Dear Time Travelers friends,
I'd like to ask you your opinion on the following: is it allowed (or, anyway, reccomendable) to quote in a time travel story (or in any other fiction work) a real and living person?

I will be more specific. I have just finished another time travel story, born from the ashes of the recent very short vignette 'God Does Not Play Dice' (which many of you already know). This story, much longer than the first one, has the same beginning but then takes a different turn and a totally different ending.
I had already used (though never mentioning his name) a well famous scientist as main character of the first short story. Actually, I did not think about whether it was allowed or not to do it, since he died some time ago and he is, I believe, an 'historical' character now. (Not like Socrates in Paul's novel, however :)) ).
But this time I mentioned a living person. Famous. And to make him being even one of the causes of a possible different future... well, now I am concerned that it is not allowed. He is mentioned with all the honour and respect that he deserves, but I am stll not sure.
Do you know how to behave in such circumstances?

Thanks for your opinion :)

PS(when ready, I'll publish it and put, as always, free copies for you all to read)

[Amy, Queen of Time]

That's an interesting question. I think the main test is whether it can harm the person's reputation in any way or be construed in a negative light. Of course, anybody can sue anyone for any reason, so there's always that to consider. It seems to me that it would be safe to use a verifiable quote from a living person and verifiable actions. However, anything that you fictionalize about the person would be on the iffy side of things. Personally, I'd steer clear of taking too many liberties beyond historical fact and quotes. And there are even some dead people that you still can't legally use in fiction (Elvis Presley for example). My husband's an expert on this type of thing, though, so I'll try to remember to ask him.

Anyhow, some articles to read that will probably scare you away from doing it:
*http://www.copylaw.org/2010/07/libel-...
*http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2010/1...
*http://www.mobileread.com/forums/arch...
*http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showth...

[Brenda]

I would be careful about using somebody alive, unless they are already a public person. (Bill Clinton, yes. Your neighbor, no.) Unless they are indeed a famous person, there is no reason to use a real person at all. (Since I the reader do not know your neighbor, why use her? Make up a name for her; I will not know the difference.)

Somebody famous and dead, I think you are ironclad. If we had to quit writing about famous but dead people all historical fiction would grind to a halt.

Brenda (has Steve Jobs in current novel)

[John, Moderator in Memory]

I agree that you should stick with public rather than private citizens. Although I'm not sure how they make that distinction. If it is a politician, then you can take a lot of liberty. Just look at what they did to our 16th president in "Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter."

[Brenda]

A good clue would be, do other people recognize the name? Very few people would not recognize Bill Clinton or Abraham Lincoln. My neighbor, nobody will recognize except people on this street. The other clue is, do they do stuff to publicize themselves? It is idle to argue that Newt Gingrich is not a public person; he spends so much time and energy making himself public that you would be crazy to deny it.

[Peter]

Amy wrote: ...

yes Amy, you scared me! :))))

Anyway, the story is online, and Tomorrow Monday 8 April will be for free download on Amazon Kindle

It would be great if many of you will read it and give me your opinion (also leaving a review would not be a bad idea :))) )...

Also on the mentioning of three real person there (!) Only one is alive, and, although I avoided to write the name, I think he is recognizable.

Well, now I am really thinking whether I have to remove and delete the story or not :( (still scared about Amy's post ;) )

http://www.amazon.com/God-Does-Play-D...
God Does Not Play Dice

[Peter]

Brenda wrote: "I would be careful about using somebody alive, unless they are already a public person. (Bill Clinton, yes. Your neighbor, no.) Unless they are indeed a famous person, there is no reason to use a ..."

thanks, interesting answer (BTW; I did not mention my neighbour, but three most famous individuals)

[Brenda]

Frankly, I would not worry about it unless your portrayal of that individual is completely invidious. If you've depicted him as a Satan-worshipping child-beating kitten-sacrificer, yeah, it's lawsuit time. If he's just doing his famous-person thing, nah.

[Peter]

Brenda wrote: "Frankly, I would not worry about it unless your portrayal of that individual is completely invidious. If you've depicted him as a Satan-worshipping child-beating kitten-sacrificer, yeah, it's laws..."

:))) please, read it (Tomorrow is for free, and I did it right to my goodreads friends and colleagues) and tell me your opinion

[E.B.]

Brenda wrote: "Frankly, I would not worry about it unless your portrayal of that individual is completely invidious. If you've depicted him as a Satan-worshipping child-beating kitten-sacrificer, yeah, it's laws..."

lol, agree with this!

[Peter]

:D

now you are starting to be not serious! :))) but at least make me smile and not worry too mch about the law!

has anyone read the story? you know, Readers' and writers' opinions are so precious...

[Paul]

Let me throw in my 2 cents -- something I came across researching copyright rules for quoting song lyrics, and it could apply here. It said If you're using more than a very, very, few words and the title, but you don't have written permission, "Don't do it!" Not worth the risk.

But here's the important part. It also said, "You're a writer! Say it another way!" Oh yeah . . . I can "write around" this (paraphrase, description, song title). So I suggest if there's any doubt about using a real person's name or recognizable character (in light of postings above), consider an alternate path.

I confess I enjoy carefully disguised references to people I know, letting them "inspire" a character. In a story I'm writing now, though, the name and setting are thinly disguised, but only that person would catch the reference to a particular act of political courage from long ago. It's a small thank you hidden in fiction, and that individual, if still among us, wouldn't mind. No lawsuit there.

[Peter]

Paul wrote: "Let me throw in my 2 cents -- something I came across researching copyright rules for quoting song lyrics, and it could apply here. It said If you're using more than a very, very, few words and the..."

Thanks Paul, very interesting.

However, in my story the historical persons (so, the dead one, for whom I think I should not have any problem) are key characters of a timeline, and so I have to use their real name. Another person, also important for the story, is still living... I did not mention his name, but I guess he's recognizable.

Probably, only after reading the story it is possible to have a clear idea (BTW, I am NOT trying to sell the story :) I will send it for free to anyone of you interested or curious to read it)

[Paul]

Piero, are we still talking about the shorter version of "God Does Not Play Dice" or the longer one it inspired? I downloaded what I think is the shorter one and will take a look. Thanks.

As for the legalities, I see the problem, but shouldn't we be asking you? You're the lawyer! :-) (I know -- different statutes and different legal system.) Good luck with your writing.

Paul S.

[Peter]

Paul wrote: "Piero, are we still talking about the shorter version of "God Does Not Play Dice" or the longer one it inspired? I downloaded what I think is the shorter one and will take a look. Thanks.

As for t..."

I am talking of the longer one... you should have downloaded the longer if you did it today - if you have downloaded before, it was the shorter, but you are still in time, it is still on KPD for free now. Anyway, the longer is 7000 words (the short was really short, 1300), so do not expect a novel ;)

[Amy, Queen of Time]

Piero wrote: "Paul wrote: "Piero, are we still talking about the shorter version of "God Does Not Play Dice" or the longer one it inspired? I downloaded what I think is the shorter one and will take a look. Than..."

Thanks for making that clear. I didn't realize you'd titled the longer version the same as the shorter version. Downloaded.

[Peter]

Yes, Amy, and choosing a different title was the hardest task, so at the end I opted for the same title (which is, actually, too good to be changed) ;)

[E.B.]

John wrote: "I agree that you should stick with public rather than private citizens. Although I'm not sure how they make that distinction. If it is a politician, then you can take a lot of liberty. Just look..."

I don't have an answer to this question, and am reading the responses with interest. (I just plugged in a well-known historical figure into one of my TT books as well. It is a brief cameo.)
Off to download the updated version....tx Piero

[E.B.]

edited b/c I am search impaired. I found it ;)

[Brenda]

You should know that there are different rules for song lyrics/song melodies. Also for poems and poetry, and a separate set of laws again for things like imagery from films. Those are entirely separate things from the using of a person, alive or dead, in fiction, and mixing them up will simply lead to confusion.

If you google around you can find articles about the making of THE WONDERFUL WIZARD OF OZ, the movie that came out earlier this spring. They could use stuff from the Frank Baum books, but they had to be very very careful about what they borrowed from the Judy Garland movie.

Or, search around on the subject of WICKED, the Broadway musical which was based on the novel of the same title by Gregory Maguire, which was based, loosely, on Baum's Oz novels. The musical people also wanted to use movie imagery, and to some extent they did -- Glinda makes her stage appearance in a gigantic bubble. But they were unable to use any of the melodies from the movie, no "Over the Rainbow" or "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead." They calculated that they could use exactly six notes from "Over the Rainbow," without violating the rules, and they did. You can hear them in the score, just before a Munchkin shouts, "Look, there's Glinda!"

[Paul]

Another two cents: If you want to use a real person that few people know, then just make up a new name for this character, and almost no one will be the wiser. If you want to use real person who is famous, then, in general, that fame is your protection, because courts (at least in the US) have tended to rule that famous people are fair game for satire and fiction (hence stories in extreme tabloids that movie stars are having affairs with visitors from Mars or whatever).

[Howard]

Paul, from your remarks, I take it that you dismiss out of hand 'that movie stars are having affairs with visitors from Mars or whatever'

I understand your greater point, but I wouldn't use this particular reference to make it.

Just saying.

[Paul]

Point taken.

[M.R.]

wow - i didn't know that about Elvis but it certainly explains the lack of novels with him in! I wonder if that law is due to expire at some time?

[Howard]

M.R. wonders: 'if that law is due to expire at some time'

M.R., yes & that's why after Caesar objected to his depiction in my 2nd Epic Fable of Time, he was powerless to alter it.

Schumann liked his part, though.

I haven't heard from the others.

[M.R.]

Hoho!

Yes, I was getting worried about being sued by a bunch of dead nazis there for a minute!

When the Elvis law expires, will there be a flood of novels about Elvis saving the world with his karate skills, etc?

[Howard]

M.R., not to lead you amiss, the estate of Elvis is well managed, as are many dead celebrities.

Caesar's lawyers, however, are long dead, also.

Do your research, you understand.

[Brenda]

And there are fictional works about Elvis. There is even a band, Dead Elvis.

[Howard]

Brenda points out 'There is even a band, Dead Elvis'

Yes, but Elvis' estate lawyers are alive & doing well & so ever vigilant in his behalf.

He'd be open, according to Paul, to satire or fiction but I'd tread lightly, for the King's lawyers are likely also fans.

Who's not?

[Paul]

For what it's worth, my wife never liked Elvis.

[Garrett]

Piero,

We just found this string, and wanted to encourage you to not be afraid to use real people as characters in your book.

We had great fun writing a teenage Nikola Tesla into our book, Rabbit Hole

We think if you make your character true to the spirit of the real person, and weave in some known facts, then it is lots of fun for the history-loving reader. Think of the TV show Warehouse 13. They have several real people from the past as characters, some are even contractors for the Warehouse.

[Paul]

Absolutely yes - I use real people in just about all my time travel novels and stories. That way, I get to write science fiction and historical fiction at the same time.

[[deleted user]]

Since time travel stories are mostly about 'what if' cases, not including real historical persons would be near impossible and, in my mind, would diminish the interest of the story. I agree that real historical persons that are dead should be portrayed as closely as possible to historical reality. As for living celebrities and public persons (politicians, actors, top generals and scientists), I have used some of them in my own novels, but made a clear disclaimer about my books being works of fiction and that actions and words from known persons depicted in them do not reflect reality. I also depict them in a respectful, sympathetic manner, unless that celebrity is universally known and acknowledged as being despicable (head of a terrorist group or violent criminal). Even then, I try to stick to non-controversial public persons and normally use ficticious bad guys/girls for plots happening in the present time period.

Completely avoiding the use of real historical persons would in my mind put an unacceptable straight jacket on authors of fiction. If we always avoided things that would have any chance of making someone out there start a lawsuit, however frivolous, then we might as well close up shop and give up writing.

[Paul]

Agree completely, Michel!

[Brenda]

I don't see why this even needs to be asked. An age that produced "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter" is surely in no difficulty about real people in fiction.

[Timothy]

I've included a reference to Fidel Castro in my third book. I don't think he will sue. At least I hope he won't.

[Paul]

He wouldn't win - in an American court - even if he did sue. In American law, famous people are fair game.

[Brenda]

Anybody whose name you can find in the paper is fair game. You cannot select a private person and announce in fiction that she is a puppy-kicker and an axe murderer, but it is OK to push Bill Clinton or Angelina Jolie into that role.

[Paul]

Chris - you're correct. The defamation laws in the UK are different from those in the US, in particular about famous people in the UK having much more protection from and recourse for defamation.

[[deleted user]]

Paul wrote: "Chris - you're correct. The defamation laws in the UK are different from those in the US, in particular about famous people in the UK having much more protection from and recourse for defamation."

What if those famous people are given a shining role in a fiction novel? Can you, say, mention the Queen in a good but ficticious situation without being sued in the UK?

[Paul]

Yes - the laws are about defamation - praise would be fine.

(Disclaimer: I not lawyer, in either the US or the UK, but I've taught media law as a Professor of Communication and Media Studies.)

[[deleted user]]

Paul wrote: "Yes - the laws are about defamation - praise would be fine.

(Disclaimer: I not lawyer, in either the US or the UK, but I've taught media law as a Professor of Communication and Media Studies.)"

Thanks for your info and advice, Paul. I must admit that I already used plenty of still living celebrities in ficticious situations in my novels. So, your statement is a relief to me.

[Paul]

I'm glad, Michel - go for it!