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Thistlepong: Dream Crusher!NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Incorrect! Future George R.R. just wants you to think he's dead. He's actually warged into one of his pets. Of course this will delay the publication of his final book until some techie can come up with a keyboard suitable for kitty feet.
thistlepong wrote: "Amber glibly mentioned wanting to talk about ASoIaF here. There are, of course, other goodreads discussions and the fantastic resource at Westeros. I can't add anything to legions of superfans wh..."LOL, well there goes my positivity for the day. I feel like the child, who is catching catepillars on the playground. And you just came by and crushed all of them (yes, this actually happened to me.)
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OMG. LOL. That actually has potential to be pretty epic, I kinda hope that DOES happen.
Since we're doing ASOIAF, can we address some of the more popular speculation?
I read GRRM will reveal Jon's parents by the end of the story, whats your call? L+R? (I refuse to be so predictable!)
Who do you think will ride the dragons beside Dany?
Who do you think will fullfill the role of Azor Ahai?
Do you think Azor Ahai and Prince that Was Promised will be the same person? If not, who will be The Prince That Was Promised?
What do you think about Dawn (the sword of House Dayne) being Lightbringer?
I'll stop there, though I could totally keep going.
I agree with you on L + R it is too predictable to me, as well. I don't believe GRRM would go that route due to that. I have seen the theory (on the ASOIAF forum) saying that Benjen could be a possible father. I liked that idea. As for the dragons...hm I am not sure. I have heard so many different theories circling this and the above topic and they all seem too predictable/cheesy to me. Not sure what my thoughts are there.
I would have to read a lot more in depth in regards to the other two questions. I have not read the last two books yet. My husband and I are taking a vacation soon and plan to listen to the books on audio together. :) I am not concerned with spoilers anymore. Don't try to hide them due to me. I have already figured out some things based on what I have read lol.
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You'll have to tell me which you like better, Feast or Dance. I liked FFC better but the last half of DWD was pretty good.
Anyway, I think Lyanna and Rhaegar would be too obvious. Though I see the build in that direction. It makes sense. On the same note though, any Stark could be Jon's father. I would almost like it to be Ned, out of all the Starks, because making Jon his true bastard is a little satisfying. LOL.
I've read some Benjen theories too, but none of them really pan out for me. I read a great theory that Jon is the product of incest with Lyanna and Brandon and that is why Ned is so understanding of Cersei when he finds out about her and Jaime. It was actually a really interesting and IMO good theory.
I guess GRRM told the Actor who plays Theon who Jon's parents are and he thought it was very Star Wars. But I couldn't think of anyone who really reminded me of Darth Vader.
I've also read a ton of silly theories about the dragon riders. One of the prevelent ones I find amusing is Tyrion. Who, I'm sorry, but is the least likely of all his siblings to be a Targaryen, and also, cant even ride a horse without a special saddle, let alone a freakin' dragon.
I'm holding out that Gendry will be important by either being a Dragon Rider or by being The Prince That Was Promised. I just feel like GRRM keeps slipping him into the story, and there has to be a reason for that.
Though I'm for Dany as Azor Ahai. I think she fits really well and GRRM said that PTWP and AA do not have to be the same person.
I hope Nymeria eats Sansa and Peter's child. Color me predictable. L+R=J
I think Jon is Azor Ahai and TPTWP. And he should definitely be able to ride a dragon with Targaryen blood and fire god power.
Any of the Stark kids could potentially warg into a dragon. I hope Bran gets in on the dragon action. And Sansa doesn't deserve to warg. She killed Lady with her silence!
I'm not sure about Lightbringer. Undecided right now.
Amber wrote: "I read a ton of spoilers for the books, it still doesn't compare to the way it is actually written. Honestly, it didn't ruin anything for me, it made it so my mind didn't wander with a million que..."OMG the Lyanna and Brandon theory would rock my socks off. If that were to pan out, I just might attack GRRM with a hug. I love twists like that. It would really fit Ned's reaction to keeping things secret with Jon, as well as his reaction to Cersei. It fits pretty well. Is there anything in the context of FFC or DWD that would lead one to that theory? I have always wanted a little more information about the relationship of Ned's siblings.
Darth Vader...I cannot think of anyone that would have that kind of impact on Jon, at the moment. I am going to have to keep that in mind as I read through. Someone related to the wildlings maybe? I got this odd vibe in SOS that Mance knew someting about Jon's past but chose not to reveal. Just something about his tone in theri conversations always made me think he knew more to Jon's story.
Oh and this is purely a physical thin, atm. But Gendry would be a delicious dragon rider or prince. Yum! (Don't judge me!)
I could get behind Dany as Azor Ahai. L+R may be predictable but there is a reason it is the most popular theory. And it would still be satisfying to me.
Mod
Anyway, it also fits Brandon's reaction to Lyanna's dissapearance/kidnapping, however you want to see it.
We also know Brandon is "the wild wolf" and it's implied he's quite the hot head emotionally.
Another interesting point is that Lyanna is noted as crying at the tourney of harrenhall when Rhaegar plays a sad song, however, at this time her brother is romancing Ashara Dayne as well. (Supposedly for Ned)
What do you think of the idea of Davos being Azor Ahai? I can't shake the feeling that he is going to rock the world in some big way. He's had enough bad, he could use some good.
Along the Star Wars lines, Jaime makes the most sense as a Darth Vader type. Killed the king/emperor, lost a hand (both Vader and Luke) etc. Don't believe it personally, just thought I'd throw it in there though. :)
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Amber wrote: "I read GRRM will reveal Jon's parents by the end of the story, whats your call? L+R? (I refuse to be so predictable!)
Who do you think will ride the dragons beside Dany?
Who do you think will fullfill the role of Azor Ahai?
Do you think Azor Ahai and Prince that Was Promised will be the same person? If not, who will be The Prince That Was Promised?
What do you think about Dawn (the sword of House Dayne) being Lightbringer?
"
So, I caught myself starting to look back at the books and stopped. You won't trick me.
Anyway, without much thought and with the caveat that I didn't worry too much about spoilers, but didn't really seek them out.
L+R=J fits a particular kind of story. I kind of hope it fits this one. Bastards have gotten a bad name for, like, ever...
Aegon and I dunno. Needs to be Valyrian, right? Somehow?
Nobody. I think it was Beric and GRRM hates me.
No useful thoughts.
No useful thoughts. I don't think I ever considered it, which might tell you how deep I've gone into speculating. Clever, though.
A proper epic would have Jon resurrected as Azor Ahai wed to the Prince(ss) who was promised - and Aegon - saving Westeros from the Others or whatever on the backs of dragons tamed by Euron's horn...
Except that can't happen.
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@Jason - I agree Jaime Lannister does fit quite well. I know he tells Cat or maybe it was Brienne, that he has never been with anyone but Cersei and he hasn't shown himself to be unreliable yet. I think only Sansa has? Correct? Maybe Littlefinger. Thats the only reason I'd really rule that out. Otherwise, that is pretty dead on Darth Vader, nice call.
@Thistlepong - Darn, I thought I was compelling enough! LOL.
I think the dragon riders have to have "dragons blood" which I guess technically is Valyrian blood now that you mention it. I always thought they'd have to be Targaryen, but maybe it's just valyrian.
I thought it was Beric at first too, but agree. GRRM hates all of us. Beric Dondarrion was too much awesome to last for long. Now we're stuck with pyscho zombie Cat. What is with him ressurecting the most annoying and horrific characters? I'm pretty sure Gregor is Robert Strong. BLECK, hate that guy!
I definitely think Jon has a good chance to be AA. Especially if he is born of fire a second time, through Mel. Which it may be leading up too. Jon's obviously of importance, though I have to admit, I get really tired of his character. I loved him at first, but by book 5 I felt like Dany and Jon were just meh. If GRRM decided to kill them both I'd probably be happy with the ending. (Please, form a single file line to commence my flogging now)
I think it would be cooler if he made Jon The Great Other and took this story in a whole different direction. Though I admit it's rather doubtful.
I've come to the conclusion I'll have to wait until the ending to judge whether I really like GRRM's writing style. If all the forshadowing leads to the obvious answers I don't think I'll be as impressed....
What do you all think will happen to the Lannisters in the end? I love Jaime so hopefully he makes it or dies in some epic battle. I hope Tyrion finds Tysha, as cliche as that would be, and she doesn't forgive him, but at least he gets a chance to say his peace.
As far as Cersei, I really hope Arya gets to kill her. But I kinda think it will be Jamie. If she doesn't die, well, I hope she is at least miserable!
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Now I'm not sure...
(oh and...made ya look! :P )
SPOILERS BELOW IF YOU HAVENT READ DWD
Since Jon is attacked at the end of DWD we know he is either, simply injured or killed. If he is killed he has a few options. 1. Warg into his second life, probably making him either Mormont's Raven or Ghost. 2. Be ressurected by flame through Mel. the same way Beric and Cat have been. or 3. Become an Other. Jon is definitely at the very least a Stark. The King's of Winter. I've got my own personal theory going that the Starks have a direct connection with Winter, thus there uber creepy mantra, the necessity to always have Stark in Winterfell, and there general connection with the North and The Wall. Do you remember that part when Hodor, Bran, Meera, and Jojen are hiding in the crypts and they take swords from the Statues, I think later there is a story about how the swords hold in the spirits of the men who are barried there, I've thought since then that maybe the Starks never truly die, they all rise again in Winter as actual sentient Others.
Crackpot a bit I know, but I can't help but feel like there is something up with all those connections.
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ADWD 31
A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.
and
The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf’s face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.
So yah, that parses a bit more clearly. Maybe. Melisandre sees Jon in that vision, too. Bah. No mas.
@Amber I tend to agree with you on both Dany & Jon, especially Dany. I loved them both in the beginning, but they seem to be stagnant and not offering up much in the way of the story. Hopefully that will change soon. I'm right at the halfway point of ADWD, thanks for the spoiler warning, by the way... I don't freak out about spoilers, if you spends as much time as I do reading about my books, your bound to run into them.
I want Ramsey to die a very painful long drawn out death sometime very soon!
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So - Mel is confused about the wooden man. Good, I'm glad I wasn't totally off on that because sometimes I get a bit confused with so much going on. The timeline in the last two is especially insane for me.
And yes, I expect a gruesome, slow, and painful death for the Bastard of Bolton. I hate that guy!
@ Thistlepong- I know you were funnin. :) I took it lightly...sometimes what I type does not convey my "dark humor". I hope the fate of this series doesn't end with Grrm's death before it is completed. But it wouldn't surprise me. @Amber- I would be so happy if anyone killed Cersei, but would be delighted if it was Jaimie. :) I would grin with devilish delight. I feel so evil right now.
@Amber- What about you? Who do you think will ride the dragons? What's your best guess for Jon's parentage? If you had to put money on it right now, who would you pick? I like all the mystery surrounding Pat's books but I want different things from GRRM. With KKC I'm looking for subtlety and melancholy beauty. With ASoIaF I want an epic festival of revenge. So I guess it won't bother me if GRRM doesn't suprise me.
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I believe in Aegon, so I think he will ride one as well.
Third - honestly I hope not Jon, I want it to be one of Robert Baratheon's living bastards. He is of Targaryen decent as well and I think it would create an interesting parallel with Dany's hatred for Robert.
Can you imagine her being cruel to someone like Gendry, Edric Storm, or Mya Stone? I cannot.
As for Jon's parentage, its hard for me to decide. I just don't want it to be Rhaegar. LOL! As much as that fits the title of the story and also the foreshadowing, it bores me to death! Plus, I will think GRRM did a crap build on Lyanna if that goes down.
She specifically dislikes her betrothal to Robert Baratheon because she doesn't think he will be true to his marriage bed. The whole idea that she contributes to the destruction of another's marriage bed, is very contradictory and will just annoy me.
I kinda like the incest theory. I'm not sure if I should post my insane crackpot theory that Arthur Dayne is the father. But I'd really really like that. I'd probably slap my money there just for the insane odds.
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Me and my partner have just been trying to think of all these plot points, half of them we just looked puzzled at eachother!
I think Jon will be Azor Ahai, there have been loads of little hints. Every time Melissandre looks at Jon there was something... God, I need to re-read these!
I REALLY want Nymeria and Arya to meet up again although I don't know if it's likely. Followed by, I REALLY REALLY want Daenerys to DIE, lol. She's just been getting weaker and weaker character-wise and annoying me. I used to love her chapters.
The third dragon rider (after Gen and Dae) could be that purple haired Targaryon on the boat that Tyrion was on? The one that was being raised for Kingship, the name escapes me.
Also, LOVE your idea about the starks having a relationship to winter Amber, so freakin' good!! My brain is racing now, must be a reason they're all wargs in some form.
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This seems like the guy leading Bran to beyond the wall and then Bran himself. He's a warg with summer and training to see beyond the wall anywhere, 1000 eyes...
@Chris- I will not be satisfied with the ending if Arya doesn't find Nymeria! I talked about this a bit with Amber in crackpottery but I really want Arya to take control of Nymeria's pack when she comes back to Westeros.The purple haired Targaryen is Aegon (so they say).
Aw, everyone hates Daenerys now. I mean, I get it. She should never have chained up her dragons but I thought GRRM set up her character for a big change at the end of DWD. There may be badassery in her future yet...
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I took the first to be not Coldhands, but the three eyed crow, and the second to be Bran.
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He also fits every requirement if you want to twist it that way.
Plus, I just think it weird that he settles down in the blacksmith shop/inn that was previously known as "The Clanking Dragon" symboled by a Three Headed Dragon.
For some reason that just stands out to me as possibly meaningful.
Manda wrote: "I hope Nymeria eats Sansa and Peter's child. Color me predictable. L+R=J
I think Jon is Azor Ahai and TPTWP. And he should definitely be able to ride a dragon with Targaryen blood and fire god p..."
I hope so too! In great and gory detail with Sansa screaming bloody murder!
☆ Becky ☆ wrote: "@Amber I tend to agree with you on both Dany & Jon, especially Dany. I loved them both in the beginning, but they seem to be stagnant and not offering up much in the way of the story. Hopefully t..."SPOILERS GALORE
EyehaveNOfilter
Jon needs a jump start....perhaps to be hit by that damnable comment!
He is sleepwalking through life w/out " Egrett " as I call her.
Dany is now a PTSD candidate after her misbehaving " draggonkiddletts"
( bad bad babies!)
Catlyn is a zwomby...Brienne is hanging by a thread, Jamie can't even sign his name or pleasure himself.... ( aaaarrrrgggghhh!)
I think secretly Gendry hunky boy is missing our lovey Arya,
Ramsey needs to die already....he's late to his own funeral,
Rose needs to disappear forever... Boring....,
Baylish.... Oh I just want to personally castrate him, but having Nymeria eat his progeny would suffice,
Oh HELL!
lets hope the beginning of the next book sorts out a bit of this mess and gets a few of these shell shocked people on track.
OMG what of Tywain was Jon's father? It's not like he was lily white pure or anything?
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BAHAHA
And it would be sorta hardcore if Nymeria ate Littlefinger's littlefinger.
Lolololol!Littletwistedfinger's lost his Littletwistedfinger!
I have to lay down I'm exhausted!
Amber wrote: "Since we're doing ASOIAF, can we address some of the more popular speculation?I read GRRM will reveal Jon's parents by the end of the story, whats your call? L+R? (I refuse to be so predictable!)
Who do you think will ride the dragons beside Dany?
Who do you think will fullfill the role of Azor Ahai?
Do you think Azor Ahai and Prince that Was Promised will be the same person? If not, who will be The Prince That Was Promised?
What do you think about Dawn (the sword of House Dayne) being Lightbringer?
I'll stop there, though I could totally keep going. "
I'm for R+L=J and refuse to consider any other theories :D
Not sure, we can't even say for certain that someone will end up riding those dragons at all, but I'd like to think that Dany, Aegon(yes, I think he is the true Aegon)and Jon will be eventual dragon riders.
Can't say anything about the last three questions, sometimes I even think there's no such thing as prince that was promised or Azor Ahai.
Mod
Free Dragons might be pretty hardcore.
Sometimes I think the prophecies are all a myth too. Obviously the prophecy about Dany's son didn't work out....
Prophecies are a tricky business. They foretell the future but that foretelling can always happen in different ways. Meaning, what you think will happen is not what the prophecy is intending to happen. They also don't always come true. Dany's prophecy isn't the first circumstance of it not coming to fruition. Of course there is the last issue, do you trust the prophecy's source? Most of the time I don't lol. I don't trust very many people in GRRM'S writing and I think that is intentional on his part. The woman who made the prophecy about Dany always came across is a possible rambling old woman. We knew nothing about her accept that she made a prophecy. Whose to say she wasn't mad or sick when she said it?
Here is my crackpot theory about this prophecy. I think it came true just not in the literal sense. She has 3 sons...dragons, which could be called stallions who mount the world. I don't think it was about her baby but about her dragons.
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In a way, they are also Drogo's children, since he was sacrificed to bring them into life. So it does sorta work out.
Lastly, Prophecy is one of the most cliche facets of fantasy. I almost hate it, except its hard to find another plot driver sometimes. Thats one thing I like about KKC, is, no prophecies. They have the children's rhymes, which kinda function in there place, but at least it's not an overused concept like direct prophecy. Martin's use of prophecy is good but the series I'm reading right now, by David Eddings is completely prophecy driven and its gets a bit old and dry. Terry Goodkind was the same way, but at least his main character thought all that prophecy stuff was a bunch of bull shit and just did whatever he wanted.
I have only watched the series based off of Goodkind's series. I loved that, "I don't give a shit," attitude towards them too. Grrm's use of prophecy doesn't bother me because nothing is really clear cut. Kind of like that saying "beauty is on the eye of the beholder". I think that holds true with his prophecies. I agree about KKC it is nice to have a breath of fresh air. I like old tales and the rhymes he uses. It makes situations and things more mysterious and believable.
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The books are decent, I see why they made the show different though, some of the stuff is definitely not TV appropriate and lots of people complain about Goodkinds objectivisit retorhic. Though I didn't really mind it, it's nice to see the idealised versions of those philosphies I think. In fact, I thought the one book that is most full of his "objectivist ranting" (as people like to call it) was the best book in the series, and I don't consider myself an objectivist...anyway, yah I still have a fondness for Richard. He is a beast in the books, one of my favorite overpowered badass protagonists.
Yah, GRRM's prophecies aren't as bad as some (most LOL) I think its his writing style. You can at least suspend the possibility that everything will work out in the end with him, because, he doesnt necessarily write the happiest ending possible. Most people who write prophecy based fantasy, you know, that in the end, the protagonist is going to overcome whatever obstacle and fulfill the prophecy in line with all that is good and right. blah blah blah - bored now.
LOL.
And yes, I agree, the myths and legends Pat works with are more believable. I think this is because at least in the US most people don't base anything around any sort of prophecy. If someone came to me and was like it was prophesized you'd save the world, I'd probably call the police.
Whereas we still have urban legends and myths in our culture people actually take very seriously. We even have mysterious histories, like in Egypt and Summaria, that are comparable and hold peoples attention in the same fashion.
I can point out a couple nifty tricks I think Martin employs.
Each PoV character has a particular color palette.
Each PoV has a way of seeing, whom and what they notice, that affects the descriptions.
The boring or uncomfortable chapters are, I believe, intentional. Foundationless plans, constrained individuals, or altered states of consciousness all contribute to the reader's discomfort.
I think the above has become more sophisticated as the series progressed, but was probably always somewhat intentional. Martin's prose often gets called workmanlike, yet there's a formal facility just under the surface.
Manda asked what happened at the end. Martin dies before finishing. The shows two producers know the bones of the ending, though, so we get a fair approximation of Bran and Daenerys unable to have children, Arya murdering Sansa and Peter's child, and Westeros overrun by fanatics in rags.