Week 2.3 -- Hippe through Table Talk

[[deleted user]]

At 49 Wendel wrote: ""
It seems that love (carnal love) slowly takes possession of the body, beginning with those unexplained hart beatings. Love may therefore have more in common with illness, another invasion of the body, than we like to think.
."

Nice analogy! I quite like that.

[[deleted user]]

Thorwald wrote: "You already reached Table Talk? Then I can finally drop my bomb on Dr. Krokowski and the translation of Lowe-Porter.

The last words of chapter "Doubts and Considerations" are: "Hans Castorp remark..."

LOVE IT!

[Thomas]

Thorwald wrote: "You already reached Table Talk? Then I can finally drop my bomb on Dr. Krokowski and the translation of Lowe-Porter.

The last words of chapter "Doubts and Considerations" are: "Hans Castorp remark..."

In light of this, isn't it interesting how Dr. Krokowski later appears in HC's room?

...we say "materialized" because that is the best word for the strange, almost terrifying impression it had made on Hans Castorp ...he was startled awake by the sudden realization that the assistant was in his room ...He had not used the corridor, but had moved along the balconies, and had come in now through the open balcony door, creating the impression that he had materialized out of thin air.

[Everyman]

Thorwald wrote: "You already reached Table Talk? Then I can finally drop my bomb on Dr. Krokowski and the translation of Lowe-Porter."

that's wonderful!

[Thorwald]

Table Talk:

I am really angry about the behaviour of Hans Castorp: It is ok for a young man to watch silently in direction of a woman if you do not dare to talk to her (with avoiding her noticing it, of course!). And I must say, Thomas Mann has caught well the feelings and specialties in such a situation - but what is absolutely strange is that Hans Castorp seems to be content with not talking to her! It is not that he does not dare it. And this makes me angry ... it's like stalking, isn't it?

[Kathy]

Well, maybe Adelle is on to something, and it's really all about Hippe, not Mme. Chauchat at all!

[[deleted user]]

Thorwald wrote: "Table Talk:

I am really angry about the behaviour of Hans Castorp: It is ok for a young man to watch silently in direction of a woman if you do not dare to talk to her (with avoiding her noticing ..."

I thought Mann did a magnificent job of capturing the ambiance of sexual tension and longing in a middle school cafeteria. (For our non-American members, Middle school is approximately age 10-14)

[[deleted user]]

Oh, Zeke! Yes!

There WAS a boy in Middle School. For a year I would glance over at him as I walked up the stairs and he walked down. I never spoke to him. :)

[[deleted user]]

Wendel wrote: "The wood scene made me also think of the Wandervogel movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandervogel.

Off topic: Claudius's Evening Song - not really a spoiler, just keep things clean.

Claudiu..."

Thank you! Those were wonderful. MM in German must be so rich.

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "Thorwald wrote: ".So this trip IS the change his condition called for. This is supposed to get him well. But is it or will it?? ."

I'm agreeing with Thorwald here: Hans Castorp has reached this point. He cannot go on as he is used to. The pencil incident shows him where he has to change: Admiring is not enough any more. He should go one step further and have real contact. "

His Hamburg doctor had observed a physical condition...and prescribed a physical therapy: a change in air.

But HC, it seems, also has a psychic/spititual/soul condition that needs improvement. For this condition a change is physical location in and of itself won't be enough. HC has to take a step further himself. As he needed to be brave enough/ spirited enough to step forward and speak to Hibbe, so, too, HC, perhaps, needs to be brave enough/ spirited enough to step forward for himself...learn who he himself is...face the issues he hasn't wanted to face.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "Oh, Zeke! Yes!

There WAS a boy in Middle School. For a year I would glance over at him as I walked up the stairs and he walked down. I never spoke to him. :)"

If we're on confessionals, I had a major crush on a girl when I was in 9th grade, but never said a word to her. (Then there's Charlie Brown and the red haired girl.)

I think most shy and sexually inexperienced people can relate to HC's admiration (semi-lust?) at a distance.

[Thorwald]

Everyman wrote: "I think most shy and sexually inexperienced people can relate to HC's admiration (semi-lust?) at a distance. "

Hm, not exactly, or? Because I always suffered to be not able to make contact (because of whatever reasons), but Hans Castorp is content with the situation, and this is so strange!

[Everyman]

Thorwald wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I think most shy and sexually inexperienced people can relate to HC's admiration (semi-lust?) at a distance. "

Hm, not exactly, or? Because I always suffered to be not able to make contact (because of whatever reasons), but Hans Castorp is content with the situation, and this is so strange! "

Nice point.

[[deleted user]]

How do we know he is "content?" Isn't this infatuation a source of his illness? Isn't it an example of Dr. K's lecture topic in action?

[Thorwald]

Zeke wrote: "How do we know he is "content?" Isn't this infatuation a source of his illness? Isn't it an example of Dr. K's lecture topic in action?"

Knowing this is a spoiler in this Thread.
(view spoiler)[
See following chapter (Two Grandfathers), Lowe-Porter:

"In a word, Hans Castorp envisaged in this opening affair between him and the heedless creature who was a member of the Berghof society no more than a holidayadventure. Before the tribunal of reason, conscience, and common sense it could make no claims to be heard; ... No, it simply did not occur to him to seek her society; while as for the rest—well, however the thing turned out, it would be over in one way or another inside ten days, when he would enter upon his apprenticeship at Tunder and Wilms’s. For the moment, however, he had begun to live in and for the emotions roused in him by the pretty patient: the up and down of suspense, fulfilment or disappointment, characteristic of such a state. He came to regard these feelings as the real meaning and content of his stay; his mood depended wholly upon their event."

(hide spoiler)]

[Don]

Jeremy wrote: "II think we already see that Settembrini and Krokowski are representing too very different views on life."

Good point. I see that not only are the contents of their critiques of the conventional culture different; they have different approaches to intellectual life: the questioner versus the believer.

[Elizabeth]

Messages 5 and 6 Thorwald wrote: "Don wrote: "I need to know the meaning of "love." I wonder about connotations of the German word for love Dr. Krokowski uses in his lecture. From HC's meandering as the word loses meaning for him..."

Krokowski's talk: "Love as a Force Conducive to Illness". Maybe this is a talk about casual sex and STDs! To answer Tina Turner's question: "What's love got to do with it?" Probably nothing! "Love" as Krokowski speaks of it, I would guess, is a Victorian-era genteele way stating the subject. Krokowski asks the question "And in what form or mask did suppressed and unsanctioned love reappear?" His answer is "In the form of illness!" This could be STDs or it could also be emotional conflicts.

HC's conversation with his table mate is very unseemly. Again, "What's love got to do with it?" Whereas HC's recollection of his feelings for Hippe seems very innocent, possibly recognition of a desire to be in the company of someone you admire without any sexual thoughts or feelings. Brotherly love, so to speak.

In "Doubts and Considerations" HC is at least considering the possibility that neither Behrens nor Krokowski is authentic.