Classics and the Western Canon discussion
The Magic Mountain
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Week 2.1 - But of Course ...through Santana Makes...
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Thank you , Lily and Wendell...the other translations are clearer in that particular section and now having seen their language, the language in my edition makes sense. Wendell, I especially love to hear your translation from the German text! Interesting how H.C. initially forgets his age when asked by S...again, possibly the effect of the fluidity and/or lack of demarkations of time.
Everyman, I tend to agree with your notice..that this book may be a springboard for philosophy or "positions" of some sort...I think it was written at such a time when many philosophies or "particular positions" abounded and contradicted and made such an impact on the world via their clashes and effect that it was a time to puzzle much about them...and perhaps sometimes there indeed was no clear answer or support thereof......but analyzing was indeed in order as how terrifying or large the potential resulting effects/changes! Thus the book... an outlet of sorts, perhaps. Yet..indeed..there is something magical in its setting. Perhaps because it is set apart from the world of which is so very puzzling . A detached ponderation of the confusing down below....set where life and death timelessly mingle.
Sue wrote: "I think it was written at such a time when many philosophies abounded and contradicted and made such an impact on the world via their clashes and effect that it was a time to puzzle much about them"You're quite right. It was an interesting period intellectually. The Industrial Revolution among other things had led to the expansion of corporate industry, the counter-development of unions, and the expansion of the industrial state, and society was undergoing major reconsiderations of how to organize society most effectively. It was also the time of the development of psychology. Lots intellectually going on.
Everyman wrote: "....the expansion of the industrial state, and society was undergoing major reconsiderations of how to organize society most effectively...."Not a history person, but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period, especially for European nations?
Everyman wrote: "Is it really a novel? In that it tells a story, it is in its structure, but if that were all it was it would, I think, be a very poor novel. It seems more to be a vehicle for philosophy, though it isn't really philosophy, psychology, sociology, etc., though not really those either because it doesn't, at least so far, seem to offer any answers or support any particular positions."I would argue that this is what a novel is! Yes, it tells a story, it delves into the psyches of its characters, it raises "unanswerable" questions. The moment a novel becomes too didactic, it becomes something else--a treatise, polemic, extended essay, but not much of a novel. Of course, the author's position will come through, but not by way of any kind of thesis. It seems to me that that's pretty much what we're reading here.
Lily wrote: "Everyman wrote: "....the expansion of the industrial state, and society was undergoing major reconsiderations of how to organize society most effectively...."Not a history person, but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period, especially for European nations? "
Absolutely.
Lily wrote: "but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period, especially for European nations? "Hm, rather no, I would say! The imperial question was done and over with World War I, at least for Germany.
After WWI it was more a time of ideological struggle: Communism, parliamentary democracy, capitalism, socialism, nationalism, internationalism, quasi-religious believe in science, Social Darwinism, Racism.
And of course: break with traditions, i.e. christianity, monarchy and classical humanism.
National Socialism was a result of this mixed brew:
Defining nation biologically by race (a new and "scientific" concept, not to be confused with "usual" nationalism), deriving morals from science (social darwinism, what can be done is allowed to be done), party socialism under one leader instead of a monarch, anti-capitalism (capitalism considered to be "jewish" = a product from an allegedly biologically (!) evil-minded race), putting people aside who were thought to have inborn the evil in their genes (esp. jews, whereas the "putting aside" ended in mass murdering as we know today), religion and tradition understood rather as a mechanism to lead peoples than as a true source of ethical values.
A rather wild brew of pseudo-philosophy and pseudo-science ... but it was considered to be modern and progressive and morally right once in Germany, unbelievable as it is. PS: And not only in Germany ...
And the MM was written in the very moment when this brew was brewd.
Thorwald wrote: "Lily wrote: "but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period..."Maybe we should add that the novel 'takes place' in the years leading up to august 1914. Those were the happy days of the Belle Époque, including its imperialist dreams. When Mann finally sat down to finish the book, he did so in the insecure environment Thorwald described.
We will have to discover how that influences the book. Up to now we are firmly anchored in the pre-war period, the world of Death in Venice. The sanatorium seems very secluded even. Elsewhere people were from time to time alarmed by local wars and diplomatic incidents, of which there were plenty in the last ten years before august 1914.
I doubt whether Mann was much interested in these problems before the war. Imperialism might have interested him even less. It is my impression that he enjoyed the Belle Époque as much HC his cigars.
Sue wrote: "Thank you, Lily and Wendell...the other translations are clearer in that particular section and now having seen their language, the language in my edition makes sense. ..."Sue -- if I may, whose translation are you reading? Porter? Or someone else?
Thanks, Thorwald and Wendel -- you are getting at the historical context I was trying to clarify -- the rather curious combination of being set before WWI, written after it, and now being read after WWII by those of us too young to have lived through them all, but probably disproportionately influenced by WWII. One really also struggles with realizing how different the European experience was from the American (U.S.).
Thorwald wrote: "Lily wrote: "but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period, especially for European nations? "Hm, rather no, I would say! The imperial question was done and over with World War I, at least for Germany. "
But TheMM is pre-WWI. As Mann says in the Foreword, he is writing about ideas and events before the great rift; at this point in the book I believe he is reflecting the thinking of roughly 1907, which is about when the books starts.
Wendel wrote: "Up to now we are firmly anchored in the pre-war period, the world of Death in Venice. The sanatorium seems very secluded even. "That's a nice point that is easy to overlook. We're well into the book at this point, and I can't think of a single "current event" of history or politics that Mann alludes to. I don't recall anybody reading a newspaper, or listening to the radio (was their radio in Europe before WWI? I am ignorant on that!), or having a discussion over dinner of any event happening in the world "down there." This world, at least so far, seems as carefully wrapped up in itself as HC and JZ are in their lounge chair blankets!
@ Thorwald: I find your description of National Socialism very illuminating. Eugenics were already gaining ground prior to WWI as inspired in part or largely by Darwin and his studies ("survival of the strongest") and furthered promoted/expounded upon by persons such as Francis Galton (e.g. perception of inferior/superior races/traits)...thus key aspects of the foundation for National Socialism was already being seeded prior to WWI and likely evidenced in some of the language in MM.@ Lily: I am reading the Lowe-Porter translation which I generally enjoy ( albeit I wish I could read it in German though).
Sue wrote: "@ Lily: I am reading the Lowe-Porter translation which I generally enjoy ( albeit I wish I could read it in German though). ..."Thank you, Sue. I saw somewhere this week that Mann had recently attracted new translators, but Lowe-Porter and Woods were the only two in English I had encountered. From your comment, I wondered if you might have still another. Maybe the item I saw meant translators to other languages than English -- it was a headline or synopsis of something I didn't pursue.
Sue wrote: "@ Thorwald: I find your description of National Socialism very illuminating. Eugenics were already gaining ground prior to WWI as inspired in part or largely by Darwin and his studies ("survival o..."Hm, we have to be very careful here. Genes exist. And Darwin is not wrong. Inborn qualities exist, too (but not unchangeable and not the simple "bad" and "evil" of course!). The question is, how to interprete these things and how to view it form an ethical point of view.
Important to know is, that in Germany Darwin's ideas were promoted by Ernst Haeckel, who unfortunately translated "struggle for life" with "Kampf ums Überleben" = "fight for survival". Thus, the path for a wrong interpretation towards Social Darwinism was pathed.
It is a totally wrong and biased idea to interprete the struggle for life as a direct fight of one species against the other. And it is of course wrong, to derive ethical standards for human beings directly from the lion's behaviour towards gazelles ... here we are with Plato/Socrates again and his fight (or struggle?) with the Sophists.
@Everyman:
Hm, you are right, the novel's time is pre-war, but I imagine that the author thought of his present time, too? We will see.
@ Thorwald. Exactly. Obviously Darwin was correct ... I think eugenics (and resulting doctrines) were in part correct, in part misguided...but initially not intended toward destruction per se of the perceived inferior but purification and preservation (survival) of perceived superiors traits/groups ( a form of self preservation) . Sadly, destruction as a primary means (as evidenced by the holocaust) evolved when mere removal was not proving satisfactory due in part to global attitudes (other countries policies/reactions in taking in immigrants). So yes, that does seem to mesh with Ernst Haeckel's "fight for survival", how indeed a wrong path toward social Darwinism evolved. It is a tricky subject indeed.
Thorwald wrote: "@Everyman:Hm, you are right, the novel's time is pre-war, but I imagine that the author thought of his present time, too? We will see. "
Oh, absolutely. In some ways I think the fact that he wrote post-war about the pre-war period offered him the chance to sort out which political/economic/social views of the pre-war period were most influential in causing the war to expand as broadly as it did (which was by no means a certainty), and which survived the war to influence post-war Europe. I don't know whether this is what actually happened, but it seems likely.
At any rate, we are seeing, I think, what he wanted to remind and clarify for the post-war world what was going on intellectually in the pre-war period.
It's tempting to say, though I'm not ready to yet, that he was using the sickness of the isolated community in Davos as symbolic of the sickness of pre-war Europe as a whole.
Wendel wrote: "And the 'one word too many', wasn't that his remark to poor Joachim about Marusja: 'Chest trouble is the last thing one would accuse her of', meaning that she is about the opposite of Chauchat?"I'm not sure what the extra "word" is but I would expect it has something to do with HC bringing up Marusja, because that turn in the conversation sure seems to spook Joachim pretty ghastly.
Wendel wrote: "Thomas wrote: "He isn't sure if Albin is a phony or not.."I suggest that Albin doesn't know himself. Anyway, here up the mountain we do not take things seriously. Is this Mann's famous irony? A g..."
I didn't catch the constrast between the gun and the chocolates on my first read. Those are two interesting and opposing symbols which fit into this scene. One represents an escape from suffering the other enjoying an indulgence, much like Hans' cigars.
Kathy wrote: "I was intrigued by the "silent sister," and the story of Ottilie. They catch her pretending to have a fever by using this trick thermometer, which has apparently been invented because others have t..."Hans' dissertation on Time in 'Mental Gymnastic' is the same explanation that Einstein gave for his Theory of Relativity. The brilliant German-American physicist said something along the lines of, "If you put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, it seems like an hour. If you sit on the couch next to a beautiful woman for an hour, it seems like a minute. That's relativity."
Hans of course noted, "When it seems long to you, it IS long; when it seems short, why, then it is short."
I wonder if this analogy actually influenced Einstein at all, if not, directly in the development of his theory, at least, in the explanation of it. I tend to think it probably did. He was born in Germany and probably read this book. And, the fact that he chose to use the example of "relative time" to dumb down the concept of "relative speed" leads me to believe he may be indirectly quoting Hans Castorp. If so, this gives us all the more reason to be digesting the Classics. We may be the next Einstein!
Wendel wrote: "Sue wrote: "What is H.C. talking about near the beginning of chapter "Santana makes" when after listening to J, he states "well,..I am certainly far from feeling fit up here. I couldn't say I did (..."Wendel, are you reading this in German? I cant' understand why after the section "Breakfast", they were waiting to eat "breakfast". At first, I thought it might be a different day, but I realized that they were eating a second breakfast on the same day. I am wondering if it reads that way in the original German. I expect there is a different word used for the second meal, that, perhaps there was not an English Equivalent, maybe Lowe-Porter could have used the word "brunch" to clariffy meaning. If anyone has the original text, or can shed any light on this, I would be interested to know.
Everyman wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Anyway, here up the mountain we do not take things seriously. "Interesting comment. Do you mean in the mountains generally, that being so high up changes one's perspective? Or is..."
I took this to apply specifically to the Sanatorium. I think one of the themes of the novel is the vast differences of values, attitudes, and lifestyle at the Sanatorium, and "down below" meaning "the real world" or "everyday life."
Speaking of this, their lifestyles do seem quite unique while on the Magic Mountain. They are not allowed to gamble at the Sanatorium, apparently, poker and petitschevaux are not good for their declining health. What is good for their health? Food and rest. So far, I have their daily schedule as
Breakfast
Walk
Nap
Breakfast #2
Walk
Nap
Dinner
Short Walk
Nap
Tea
Dinner
Dominoes
Bedtime
...or something to that effect.
Other changes are that time has ceased to exist. A day can feel like years and a few years can pass in a day. Here, on the Magic Mountain, the true notion of time is a Silent Sister to Big Ben's twisted notion of measuring the immeasurable. What you cannot track, you cannot alter. And, therefore, in their higher wisdom, they have unmasked Father Time and found he was just a fake, a participant in the Masquerade of Life, and in his ousted state becomes an unwelcome guest at their gala and relinquishes his place to make way for the Silent Sister. She alone knows the score, keeping track of seconds, and minutes, and hours, and days, and weeks, and months, and years, but displays no tallies, and therefore the shrewdest deceiver cannot disguise the truth that she alone holds in obfuscation. What could the mountaineers perceive should they solve her riddle? Nothing, that is not clear to them already. Discovering her secret would change nothing, because time is just an illusion, it has nothing to do with reality or experience, it is just something that Big Ben decided to keep tabs on, and on the Magic Mountain such wastes of "time" are abandoned. Clearly, this is the preferred way to live. Else, we would have no need of the Silent Sister whose presence serves the purpose of forcing the departure of those guests who have worn out their welcome.
Everyman wrote: "In "Santana Makes..." we see HC seeming to deteriorate both physically and mentally. Although he at first claims that he has become "both older and wiser" after only one day at the sanatorium, but..."In that scene, I tend to view the Italian as a type of Satan. He seems to take a hidden pleasure in tripping up Hans as if he knew the effect his questions and comments would have on the deteriorating man and then enjoying his demise before his every eyes. Earlier, he was depicted as envious of Hans' health and dejected to hear he was only a visitor and not a patient. It seems he is pleased to find Hans' having some struggles with his mental faculties and his physical health.
Thorwald wrote: "Lily wrote: "but weren't there major considerations about imperialism and empire occurring during this period, especially for European nations? "Hm, rather no, I would say! The imperial question ..."
But, in the prologue, Mann takes the time to reminds his readers that this takes place BEFORE World War I, and considers that to have changed EVERYTHING, leading us to understand that it is of the utmost importance that these events took place before and not after the world changed.
Everyman wrote: "We're well into the book at this point, and I can't think of a single "current event" of history or politics that Mann alludes to. "We are well into this book at this point. We have talked about the perception of Time. We have talked about the reoccurence and importance of the number 7 in the book. There are 7 chapters. Yet, the first three in my copy only take up 92 pages. While the last four use 636. Did Thomas Mann purposely structure this book to illustrate the perception of time? For example the first three chapters go by fast, it only takes 1-2 hours, for me, while taking notes, to read them. But it will take 8 or more hours to digest the ensuing ones. Is that not a pertinent example of Time not moving in a fixed line? I think Mann is using this structure to show us that Hans Castorp is right. He was referring to a minute: "But it (a minute/a chapter) takes such a varied length of time - to our senses!"
Jonathan wrote: "breakfast
Walk
Nap
Breakfast #2
Walk
Nap
Dinner
Short Walk
Nap
Tea
Dinner
Dominoes
Bedtime"
Nice time table! Thank you.
In German it is really second breakfast, there is no other word for it.
Nap: It is more a "rest cure", laying on the balcony without sleeping, reading a book or just waiting (but you can sleep as well I assume).
Most of you have already finished the book while I am way behind, but I'm reading all your posts as I go and enjoying them. At this point in the novel, I don't see particular reason for introducing Madame Chauchat, except to say that we now know that she slams doors; she is a Good Russian; a married patient whose husband does not visit her and her hands seem to be in need of attention. What I do find interesting is that HC admits that he can't really see the condition of her hands: "Hans Castorp only surmised all this, however, more than he actually saw it - she was really too far away". So, I guess Mann's point is that HC makes assumptions based on vague perceptions rather than facts.
The comment about finding traces of blood in his handkerchief, which he chooses to ignore, even though he has hypochondriac tendencies. At this point I'm wondering if he is showing symptoms of something other than tuberculosis such as liver problems from drinking or lung problems from smoking.
The story about Herr Albin is included to make the reader aware of the mental suffering that a patient endures, and yet, there is also hope -- the supply of chocolates.
Settembrini's shameful suggestion is that the lady known as Ollie did just about everything she could to convince others that she should stay at the resort, oops, sanatorium.
I notice that the last couple of sentences in "Herr Albin" are restated at the end of "Santana Makes Shameful Suggestions": "how it must be when one if finally free of all the pressures honor brings and one can endlessly enjoy the unbound advantages of disgrace". Is this an important clue of something to come?
That's ok Elizabeth, I am way behind too. I ended up shelving this one for awhile, to catch up on some other stuff, that and a family problem. I am looking forward to having a few people who were also lagging to discuss the rest of the book with.
Kirghiz eyes.. A mystery of darkness... yes, and we are right back with the fatal woman .. unfathomable, Asiatic, barbarous, slightly sinister. I have no doubt Mann would agree, but does HC realise what he is up to? Not likely. For that, he would have to know himself.
After the Hippe episode HC understands his pounding heart through, so to say, historical precedent. We do not know what exactly this means to him, but he is obviously taking it lightly. Big mistake.
Still, what do you want, he is just a lad. He admires the artfulness of Settembrini's words, but fails to appreciate the light they carry. Neither can he fathom the darkness Madame Chauchat stands for. Oh my, here is someone with a few lessons to learn!