A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
What do you think of Stannis Baratheon?
Yah I cant wait for him to die now that there is no Joff.He's actually insane I'm pretty sure.
I'm a fan of Stannis, I think he would make a fair king to his people a hard king but fair. As far as switching religions that's fine with me he went from a religion that offered nothing but faith to one that shows clear evidence of power
For sure Kenneth, thats a much better way of putting it.
I'm perfectly sure he would make a much better king than Robert. He is a brave and just man, why should I care that he doesn't smile? or that he's not a womanizer? In fact, if I wasn't a Targaryen fan, I would want Stannis to sit on the Iron throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. Sir Davos would also make an excellent Hand.
I love Stannis. He's stern, loyal, and knows whats best. He could do with a little charm for the people but he's the ingrediants for a perfect king. His only fault is Messandra.
I don't care for Stannis at all. Gets on my nerves like crazy but I do feel a TINY bit bad for him, like Theon... but only a little.
As much as I hate a Stannis and Theon comparison, they do have a bit of similarities dont they?Pretty much one just failed and the other didnt. If you really think about it.
Well, plus Stannis has way better morals and a sense of justice. His only real slip was killing Renly, but I get the impression he felt that was for the greater good or possibly didn't get the details.
I guess I like stannis so much because he works like a machine. He only wants justice and whats better for the relm. Someones death means nothing to him, it's kind of chilling when you think about it.
Kat wrote: "Stannis...nope. Personality of a lobster."Stannis has the personality of a bag of rocks.
Even lobsters know how to swim.
Can't stand him, yet I hope he gets rid of Ramsay Snow.
I think he would be a horrible king.Just look it what he does to get there (kinslaying) and he doesn't even act very smart. He just feels so entitled, thinking everyone who doesn't bow to him is a traitor. Stannis has no understandind of the human nature, what so ever.
And I hate Melissandre, constantly misinterpreting prophecies, yet being arrogant as hell.
Davos is to good for them.
He is entitled, so techniquely everyone who doesn't bow to him is a traitor. This is not mordern times it's a monoarchy and he is the legitimate heir since Robert's kids are actually Jamie's
Kenneth wrote: "He is entitled, so techniquely everyone who doesn't bow to him is a traitor. This is not mordern times it's a monoarchy and he is the legitimate heir since Robert's kids are actually Jamie's"Might have been a poor choice of words, but I meant for example the way he wants the free folk to kneel to him. He doesn't respect that people are complex beings and thinks everything has to go his way, because he was Roberts brother.
A bit like Viserys minus the psychosis.
I despise Stannis, he is a raging hypocrite with his sense of entitlement and inferiority complex. I want he, his wife and his red witch to die die die!
Anna wrote: "I think he would be a horrible king.Just look it what he does to get there (kinslaying) and he doesn't even act very smart. He just feels so entitled, thinking everyone who doesn't bow to him is a..."
I agree, Anna. He is incapable of empathy.
I disagree that he is incapable of empathy.He took in Edric Storm and never harmed him after Game of Thrones. Did he consider burning him alive, I'm sure, but still, his decision on that front is never fully confirmed thanks to Davos' intervention.
He allows his daughter to keep an insane court Jester because she has a fondness for him. Although it has zero benefit.
He pardon's Davos Seaworth because he see's that he is an honorable man who only was a smuggler to provide for his family and himself.
Stannis never takes advantage of the small folk the way every other potential King (still living) has. He does not whore, steal, or take undue reward.
He never forces his King's men to change religions and worship the lord of light.
He doesn't approve of Axell Florent's plan to slaughter the small folk of Claw Isle because he considers them innocents. Though there Lord a traitor.
Stannis is the ONLY king who even bothers to attempt a defense at The Wall.
He wants the Wildlings to settle The Gift, he doesn't slaughter them, instead offering them safety and food in return for there service or allowing them to leave.
Stannis even tries to send back Fake Arya to Jon thinking she is his sister so they can reunite.
Amber, I love you:D
Is the book stannis much diffrent from the show...cause i'm going off the book
I'm going off book Stannis as well.I think in the show they imply that Stannis and Mel have sexual relations, which I never really got that impression from the books.
It's difficult for me to figure out if that is correct, or if thats just another thing they added in for drama.
Amber wrote: "I disagree that he is incapable of empathy."All of those situations either benefit Stannis in some way or hasn't bearing on him whatsoever.
The fact that he even CONSIDERED burning his nephew is proof enough that he is a self-serving bastard. The ONLY reason that he didn't is because he wasn't convinced that it would work.
Patchface means nothing to him one way or another. In fact, it benefits him to keep Shireen placated.
He pardoned Davos because he is the only person that he can fully trust and he had no reason to kill the man after he saved hundreds of people lives, including his wife and child!
He takes advantage of the smallfolk by continuing to wage war for the Iron Throne. He doesn't care how many people suffer and die, as long as he can get "what is his by right".
He doesn't have to force his men personally, he has his red witch to do it for him.
It would serve him no purpose to kill the small folk of Claw Isle.
The only reason that he is at the Wall is because Mel convinced him of The Great Other, and he knows that he stands a greater chance of securing the IT with the North behind him.
The Gift is NOT his to decide what to do with it. The Gift belongs to the NW as does the Wall and ALL of its towers. He had the nerve to get pissed off at Jon because he refused to give part of the Wall to Stannis' Southron knights. He also knows, the wildings in the gift means less wights to kill later on.
He cares about Fake Arya so much that after all of the abuse that she as endured at the hands of Ramsay Snow, that he wants to marry her off to some other jerk. He owes Jon.
Amber wrote: "I'm going off book Stannis as well.I think in the show they imply that Stannis and Mel have sexual relations, which I never really got that impression from the books.
It's difficult for me to fig..."
Yes, they had sex in the books. That is how she takes his essence and how produced the shadow assassin. He is skin and bones now and she is trying to gain Jon's essence as well.
Yeah, I still don't get why people hate him though. If were going from book stannis, all he's every done is be loyal to his right and done what's best for the kingdom
Rose wrote: "Yeah, I still don't get why people hate him though. If were going from book stannis, all he's every done is be loyal to his right and done what's best for the kingdom"He doesn't give a crap about what is best for the Kingdom. If that were the case he would have backed Renly and served as Hand.
So because something benefits you, you can't have empathy?In which case, Dany falls into this catagory as well, along with everyone else vying for the throne.
(I'll try to respond in order, hope this doesnt get confusing, for all of us!)
Considering something is hardly a sin. He considered burning his nephew, he never actually did it. I won't condemn him for that. Dany actually did sacrifice her own son for personal gain - along with her beloved Husband (hardly fault her there though) and a slave she saved but than offered no empathy.
I think you are right, Patchface means nothing to Stannis. I don't know if placate is necessarily the word I would use though. Stannis provides food, clothes, and shelter for Patchface because he is his daughters companion. I think Stannis recognizes the fact that Shireen is different and Patchface is one of the few people who don't and won't judge her because of her deformity. So out of kindness, he keeps the guy around. He also knows that Patchface would probably be a different person if he hadn't been involved in that shipwreck. I think he has some pity for the fool.
He pardoned Davos because he saved them during the seige, not because he trusted him. Trust was built between them all the way through Clash of Kings leading up to him becoming Hand after Axell Florent's death due to his constant honesty despite possible retribution. Stannis wasn't gaining anything by pardoning Davos when he did it. He just ended up gaining an actual friend by chance. (IMO)
Honestly, the Iron Throne is Stannis' by right. He's not the one making the small folk suffer, Cersei is the one that's doing that along with Jaime. She knows her children are not Roberts, she knows they have no right to the throne. Thats a complete misappropration of blame. The Lannisters are far harsher and worse rulers. There refusal to admit or see that, is not Stannis' fault. (Let just say all this is IMO LOL!)
I'm pretty sure Davos is the one who convinced Stannis to go the wall. Not Mel. Davos did think it was good political move, but they also both see the seriousness of the Nights Watch. So he (Stannis) got a little pissed at Jon for not letting him fill castles that the Nights Watch weren't even using. Stannis did help them, and he didn't take that back or anything. Do you want him to not push for anything? I mean, if he could get something like that it would do his cause some good, I don't fault him for asking. I think Jon did the right thing denying him, but even after, Stannis still left some support at the Wall.
That's actually, still a shit ton better than anyone else did for them (the Nights Watch) or offered to do.
As for Arya, girls get married off. That's how things roll in this story. Not that it is my way of thinking personally, but Stannis probably see's his offer to marry her to another man a kindness. Otherwise, she pretty much will be an orphan (since they think she is Arya Stark) without a single family member (seeing as how Jon's Lord Commander) to take care of her or arrange another marriage for her. She is deflowered and was married to a man most are disgusted by, lining up any highborn for her to marry is a difficult task.
I'm not saying thats the right way to think, but thats a mans way of having empathy for woman in this time period.
As for the Sex, I think that is correct. It's only implied in the books, not directly said, but since they make it that way on the show, I will wager that's how it works. Probably the thing I dislike most about Stannis are these actions.
I don't know if Renly would have necessarily been a better King, but he would have been better loved by the people. There's no ruling out though that what Stannis thinks would be best is him on the throne. I don't see why that is so bad though, obviously everyone else is thinking this as well. Plus, at the time he participated in Renly's death, Renly was, infact, a Traitor (no matter what, he had zero right to the throne) and Stannis was convinced he (himself) was Azor Ahai. What would be better for the kingdom than that AA as King? I don't feel I can fault that line of the thinking, even if it is a bit arrogant. (What highborn isn't arrogant?)
I guess it all really depends on how you read it and who you support.
Which makes me wonder, who do you support for King/Queen of Westeros? How are they better than Stannis?
(I love debates! this is fun!)
Considering burning an innocent child for any reason is a despicable and shows what a hardhearted person Stannis is. His trusting Davos was well before anything that we saw. That happened during Robert's rebellion and we see the results of that in ACoK and in later books.
Honestly, the throne is Aegon's, if he is really Aegon, or Dany's. Robert was a usurper and traitor, along with Stannis.
You are right about Davos convincing Stannis. However, that goes to show that he is no better than any of the others because he had to be convinced to give aid to part of "his" realm. The only reason that he is doing it is for gain, not because it's the right thing to do.
Even Robert didn't want Stannis as hand because is all black and white. He wanted to ban brothels simply because he doesn't like women or care about sex.
Joffrey and Cersei Lannister are horrible at ruling. Tywin and Tyrion were more than capable of running the realm fairly and competently. The realm was peaceful and prosperous with Aerys as king " by figure head only" with Tywin actually ruling Westeros.
I won't give Stannis brownie points for not tolerating rapists, because he shouldn't. Randyll Tarly doesn't either and he is another hardhearted bastard. :)
At this point in the story there isn't anyone who is ideal for the throne. Dany, with the right advisers, would be my pick. She has empathy and actually cares for the small folk. Jon as well, but that will probably not happen. Just my crackpot hope.
Not fond of the thought of burning children myself, but it was only a consideration. I'm not saying Stannis isn't hardhearted, just that I still think he has a bit of feeling left for people. If he had no empathy for Edric Storm, he would have just allowed Mel to burn him up and give him more power.Whether it worked or not.
True, his trust begins with Davos' help in Robert's Rebellion, however I still don't think thats why he pardoned him. He pardoned him because he did a good deed that far surpassed anything wrong he had ever done. Though Stannis also saw that justice had to be done for those wrongs and chopped his fingers.
Robert should have done something similar to Jaime Lannister, and his not doing so, was a clear mistake.
Aegon is hardly the heir, his dynasty ended. Robert may have usurped the throne, but he also held it for years. He would only be a traitor if he lost, which, he didn't.
Robert didn't want Stannis as hand, that's hardly a fault. Robert and Stannis have completely different moral values and ethical systems. Of course it would be difficult to work together this way. Plus Stannis has more ability to disregard Robert being his brother. I think his desire to ban brothels is probably more than half the reason Robert wouldn't want him.
Banning brothels isn't done because Stannis hates woman, that is the weirdest argument ever. Most of those woman are being taken advantage of because they live in precarious situations. It's done for the same reason brothels are primarily illegal in the United States today. Because 1. they proliferate disease when not run properly and 2. in this world (ASOIAF), can you say sex trafficing. I applaud Stannis for wanting to end these things!
I will agree though, Tywin and Tyrion running Westeros, thumbs up to that. That would work. Unfortunately one is dead and the other will NEVER be given that chance. Despite our love for him, almost every character in the books dislikes or hates him.
The only Lannisters who will ever run Westeros are the moronic ones. Though I do think Tommen could be a decent ruler if given the chance. I just think at this point, he is a bit young. He'd have to have a lot of very competant and loyal advisors.
I agree, Dany has plenty of empathy, a bit too much for my taste and that doesn't come without personal gain either. She has spent the last few books doing almost nothing to win her struggle for Westeros and has difficulty even running Slavers Bay. Though I'll say, she doesn't have the advisors to help or trust. At the same time, Stannis is making waves however. If they had to battle eachother, I wouldn't doubt a win from Stannis because he is decisive. He'd have made a move two weeks before Dany even had a plan. If this were the beginning of the series I'd peg Dany for the win, but at this point, her priorities have skewed. I'm hoping Aegon puts her back on track.
In all honesty, I'm sorta hoping Dorne just swoops in an takes over.
It would be cool too if Mance Rayder snagged it, so long as he isnt dead.
Brothels are accepted business in GRRM's world, and in many places in this world. Brothels pay taxes to the crown and allows women to eat and have a roof over their heads. You see everyone was up an arms when Tyrion taxed them an extra penny in order to generate capital to pay bills. While, some of the people there may be exploited, I'm certain just as many see it as way to earn a living. A common woman has few choices septa, silent sister or some other type of servitude and you always run the risk of rape. If they are going to have sex, it's better for them to charge for it than giving it away for free. If Dany and Stannis battle, Stannis is on the losing end. I see Stannis sacrificing to the Others in order to gain the IT, once Jon is revealed as AAR. He doesn't believe in R'hllor, it's just a means to gain the IT.
Stannis is a traitor to Dany and Aegon, if he is really Aegon. A traitor is one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty, and Stannis' duty was to Aerys. Stannis even acknowledges that it was a hard decision for him to betray his king for his brother.
Oh I agree that Brothels are an accepted form of business in GRRM's and many worlds. Even our own in some places. That doesn't make it any more right. I'm all for woman who want to be whores doing so, thats fine by me. But the point is, most dont actually want to be that, I seriously doubt it is even close to your assumption of 50/50, thats just not human nature and culturally, prostitutes are still considered abject and looked down upon in ASOIAF, especially by there non-prostitute peers. Anyway, having brothels also proliferates the idea that woman are less than men. You don't see men being forced into prostitution because they couldn't find any other work. Stannis abolishing them should empower some woman (the ones who aren't prostitutes by choice) as well as force men to see that they are more than just sexual objects, which is a prime problem within the series of ASOIAF.
Of course they are outraged by Tyrion's tax, they are sacrificing themselves and pretty much being raped daily to earn the little bit of money they do have. Wouldn't you be pissed if you did something you felt ashamed of and then someone else charged you a tax for it?
You run the risk of rape just being a woman, thats hardly a good excuse. I run the risk of being raped everytime I go jogging alone at night or go to the grocery store alone. Thats just something you have to be aware of whether you are low or high born.
meh to the rest, its pure speculation and we obviously have differing opinions LOL! If we get a spoiler that Dany and Stannis are going to fight eachother we should run some betting! It would be fun!
OH! I thought of something else I wanted to add. It's also, hardly the woman only who suffer from the brothels, (though I agree some are not suffering and may choose to be there) many children also suffer and proliferate in places like Flea Bottom with no one to care for them.Which is hardly just or sanitary.
Brothels provide protection from rape. There was a ship of whores, from Lyseseni pleasure houses, that Victarion captured where he threw all of the boys into the sea because they were "un-natural creatures" in his view. We do not know if Satin was forced into a brothel or if he is gay and chose it. Littlefinger keeps Lyn Cobray in constant supply of young boys for his pleasure. Whoresbane earned his name for killing a male whore.
What a great debate! I just don't "like" Stannis, I think there is something wring with him.
( mentally)
Anyone who would let a religious zealot like "Mental Mel" lead them around by the
( insert favorite body part here.... nose, ear, Littlefinger?) and
" interpret visions from "God" is out to f'ing lunch!
How's THAT for statement to debate about?
Brothels provide protection from rape.Alright, you are going to have to expand on that thought! LOL.
My point wasnt that there were no male prostitutes (obviously there are, we even see them in Slavers Bay) only that they are very rarely there because they couldn't find any other line of work and that they are far fewer in supply. The cultural stigma toward whoring in ASOIAF is primarily female based.
However, now that I'm thinking about it, many males are also forced into sexual slavery in the area that Dany is and I wouldn't doubt that some of the younger boys you mentioned feel they have very few options as well.
Even Satin deals with some judgement when he is promoted to John's Steward. However, I do think the male counterpart in prostitution is generally kept more hushed. It's really no better for them, and all these things lead to is explotation, people like Littlefinger are not doing the smallfolk a favor.
Eyehavenofilter wrote: "What a great debate! I just don't "like" Stannis, I think there is something wring with him.
( mentally)
Anyone who would let a religious zealot like "Mental Mel" lead them around by the
( inser..."
LOLOL! That about sums it up. There isn't any reasoning with him and he is a hypocrite.
He cannot relate to women. Mel serves a purpose for him obtaining the throne and nothing more.
LOL @eyehavenofilterI do agree that Stannis has some mental anguish. I'm not saying he doesn't have emotional problems, I just don't think he lives a life of zero empathy for others.
He is definitely lead on a bit by Melissandre. I think her religion only ever appealed to him because he would be an integral and essential part of it. Which leads back to his psychology of never feeling he could live up to Robert's prowess and Renly's charisma, not to mention the death of his parents at an early and formative age. But he is still a half way decent man, I think he cares much for Shireen, his daughter, and Davos Seaworth.
EDIT: We do have a pretty good debate going now. I like that. I like showing both sides of something. I'm generally not overly biased so glad we could keep it civil too!
Amber wrote: "LOL @eyehavenofilterI do agree that Stannis has some mental anguish. I'm not saying he doesn't have emotional problems, I just don't think he lives a life of zero empathy for others.
He is defi..."
He really doesn't even care about the religion, he's admitted that. It's only that she "sometimes" gets a vision right that has worked to his advantage. He knew she was lying about the leeches and her prayers working to kill Robb.
I could go with that. I don't think he particularly cares about the religion either. I always just thought he liked, for once, being THE guy that people want to follow and line up behind.
Which I can't fault him for. I mean, who wouldn't like that if you had the ability?
You take that back...I was rehabilitated!
I was NOT talking about YOU.... ,!Amber...go take your medication.... I've taken mine!
Legitimacy is an abstract concept. Technically, Daenerys is the legitimate Queen of Westeros, above even Robert Baratheon. That's why Robert freaked out and wanted to have her killed. So Stannis' claiming he is the true heir is a moot point. The Targaryen's themsleves invaded Westeros from the East with dragons and supplanted all the kings on the Island, so maybe even they aren't the true rulers. In Feudal times, it's the rule of force that decides who is and isn't king.
Amber wrote: "I can't open the lid, its locked!"Love your sarcastic remarks! They make my days worthwhile! Someone who thinks "sort of like me" and is a little warped!
Edward wrote: "Legitimacy is an abstract concept. Technically, Daenerys is the legitimate Queen of Westeros, above even Robert Baratheon. That's why Robert freaked out and wanted to have her killed. So Stannis' c..."Exactly!
Personally I think if the shadow hadn't happend, Renly would've been the best choice. Now though...either Dany or Stannis. Dany has her heart in the right place, and has the best claim, while Stannis would run a kindom very well, despite his lack of love or feeling however for commoners.
I honestly think him and Jon snow are goin to be at odds I think Jon and Danny are goin to get together somehow
Jon reborn as the guy stands is supposed to be, (forgot the name lol)
I think that would be awesome Jon snow reborn next to Danny and the dragons taking shit over just very good twist
But love what everyone is writing keep it up !!!!
Renly in the book would make a great king. Renly on the HBO show would not have.
I've enjoyed reading the back-and-forth about Stannis in this thread. I think the fact that you can make such cogent arguments both for and against him as a potential ruler is a great testament to GRRM's excellent ability to create complex characters. I am not a fan of Stannis and pulling for Daenerys myself, but I've also read a number of debates making cases against her that definitely have merit. I think that ultimately, a lot of it comes down to interpretation and individual gut instinct to like/dislike a character. What awesome books!
I don't think Stannis is a hypocrite really. He changes religions, to a religion that offers him more and feeds his ego. Thats called being human.
I always thought he was just and smart and would uphold the law, not just for his benefit, as well as manage the finances a lot better.
Still hoping he ends up killing at least one Bolton!