2. WOODROW WILSON: A BIOGRAPHY~ CHAPTER 2 AND CHAPTER 3 (33 - 78) ~ APRIL 1st - APRIL 7th, No Spoilers, Please

[Ann D]

Frank,
I was a bit confused by the repeated distinction between theoretical and practical too. However, I don't know enough about Wilson's own books or "theoretical" political science books to discuss it.

I do find that Cooper keeps emphasizing that Wilson was not satisfied by strictly academic work and that he wanted to participate in actual politics quite early on. This helps me understand the continuity in his life.

See page 40, when Cooper says Wilson recognized that he did not have the financial means to pursue "his heartfelt dream of holding office,"so he decided to be a professor and make himself "an outside force in politics." However, the book makes clear that being a professor never fully satisfied him.

Should we surprised that the academic life was not a perfect fit? After all, in a letter to Ellen, Wilson complained about Hopkins and said:
"I have a distinct dread (partly instinctive and partly instilled by my home training) of too much reading." Cooper, p. 45

[Bryan]

Thanks, Ann. Wilson did a lot of outside reading and maybe that "done him in." He was more focused on that than any class he walked into.

[Ann D]

That's true, Bryan. He liked to do his own thing and he was good at it.

Maybe the type of reading he was referring to in the letter was the kind necessary for detailed research on small subjects. He was definitely interested in the big picture.

[FrankH]

Ann wrote: "I do find that Cooper keeps emphasizing that Wilson was not satisfied by strictly academic work and that he wanted to participate in actual politics quite early on. This helps me understand the continuity in his life.
..."

I agree, Ann. At one point, he complained to his brother in law (p.75) about the tedium of academia: 'I get so tired of a talking profession'. He wanted something more and it was not to be found in a scholarly project like the PofP.

[Bryan]

Yes indeed, he wanted to be a force in politics.

[Jim]

"I can never be happy unless I am enabled to lead an intellectual life; and who can lead an intellectual life in ignorant Georgia?" p 40 Cooper

"Must not government lay aside all timid scruple and boldly make itself an agency for social reform as well as political control?" p 60 Cooper

"What is democracy that it should be possible, nay natural, to some nations, impossible to others?" p63 Cooper

laws follow "standards of policy only, not absolute standards of right and wrong." p64 Cooper

Americans must help "undeveloped people's, still in the childhood of their natural growth." p76 Cooper

I have been reading the posts concerning the flavor of politics Wilson seems to enjoy. Be in experimental, practical, natural, unnatural, enfergetic or passive I have been watching the man and his opinion of himself in the world. The quotes above are leading me to believe he has more than one better idea of how the political landscape should operate. Opinions are harmless unless they have fertile soil to incubate and flourish.

What concerns me is in Paris 1919 what latitude will Wilson have to nurture his ideas and what will be the repercussions to the world thereafter. As I read this book I feel an eye towards this end is important.

[Bryan]

Thanks, Jim, some good quotes. Although we can't talk about 1919 right now, I agree, it is in the back of our minds.

Also, I keep coming back to his need to be a "force" which comes from his ambition.

[Kenneth]

Bryan wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I thought it interesting that Wilson turned down the chance to be the First President of UVA 1898. It is also interesting that 6 years pass before Alderman becomes the First Preside..."

I was surprised especially since they offered several times before he got the Presidency of Princton. UVA did not want anyone who applied they wanted the best.

[Bryan]

It goes to show you how well and fast Wilson's reputation has spread.

[Mark]

Kenneth wrote: "I thought it interesting that Wilson turned down the chance to be the First President of UVA 1898."

As the “Father of the University of Virginia”, Thomas Jefferson’s footprint is all over the school. I believe Woodrow Wilson did not accept the UVA position because beginning on pg. 74 it starts to become apparent that Wilson’s beliefs were not in line with Jefferson’s.

[Bryan]

Agreed Mark. It would be a real problem.

[Tomerobber]

I'm caught up . . . In listening to the audiobook version part of Wilson's preference in teaching men versus women seems to have stemmed from the fact that his female students didn't challenge the information he discussed for whatever reason . . . and therefore he didn't feel engaged as much as he would have if there had been more interaction which male students were less reserved about contributing.

I downloaded his book THE CONGRESSIONAL GOVERNMENT written in 1885 and also a copy of his later book THE CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT written in 1908 and I've only gotten through the Forward in each book, but the thought offered seem to think that Wilson's change of outlook is that when he wrote the first (his college thesis) he was not impressed by the presidential leadership since Lincoln . . . and that the strongest leadership would be provided with congressional interaction which he didn't feel was being provided by the men who had served in the role of President up to that time.

Also it was interesting to see that the symptoms of a possible mini-stroke were evidenced years before his later much more serious one.

by Woodrow Wilson

[Bryan]

Thanks, Tomerobber. I think you are right about the female students, good point.

It is interesting to see someone who saw the problems of a weak Executive vs. Congress. So, if Congress has to govern due to a weak president, the present way Congress does business (committees etc.) cannot lead, thus the need for more of a parliamentary model.

I don't think he is alone in wanting a strong president, especially in this time where there are so many changes going on in society and the economy.

[Bryan]

Tomerobber, you bring up the cardiovascular episode he had in May 1896. It is interesting how that changed him a little. He felt very strongly about "doing something."

[Ann D]

Yes, that cardiovascular episode at the age of 39 must have been a wake-up call that he had limited time. It reminds me of the similar effect of LBJ's first heart attack at the age of 46.

[Bryan]

Ann wrote: "Yes, that cardiovascular episode at the age of 39 must have been a wake-up call that he had limited time. It reminds me of the similar effect of LBJ's first heart attack at the age of 46."

Indeed, Ann. For Wilson, it apparently cardiovascular issues ran in his family. LBJ was the same way, too.

[Jim]

A question. It's my understanding that the British House of Lords is prohibited from vetoing or voting down spending bills from the House of Commons. I also understand that the British PM comes from the ruling party in the House of Commons. If this is so then it seems the parliamentary system provides a PM and his majority party the power to ride roughshod of the minority opinion at that time. This then defines a Wilson's strong President, yes? Do I understand this correctly?
Wasn't one of the concerns of or founding fathers this very outcome? Are we witnessing in our "stagnant" congress this battle of majority vs minority? Edward Gibbon in his book on the Roman Empire* said, "great men don't solicit mobs and mobs don't elect great men." Does history provide examples of leaders accumulating whimsical/emotional majority sometime leading to a disastrous end?

*
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
Edward Gibbon

[Bryan]

Hey Jim:

Interesting comments. The PM does not have it easy. First of all, you still need to keep your party together. Second, the majority is not an absolute majority to a point you can to ride roughshod over the opposition. I wouldn't want to face a no confidence vote, either. Granted it doesn't happen a whole lot, but you could get kicked out of office.

However, the PM might constitute a welcome change for Wilson, since he could be seen as his strong president. The Founders were worried about a president who would ride roughshod, so they built the separation of powers. And some founders like Jefferson believed the Federalists were monarchists.

You bring up an interesting notion of majority vs. minority. I haven't read Wilson's works, but I get the sense he wasn't as concerned about this so much, but more about where the power is in government, and in his case, maybe Congressional committees had too much of it, and they couldn't take that power and make good legislation. Am I on the mark when I say this, everyone?

Don't forget to cite your book with bookcover and author photo:

Edward Gibbon

[Bryan]

I think it shows how well he does in small groups by being a popular teacher and a good orator, both found in these chapters

[Jim]

Bryan wrote: "Hey Jim:

Interesting comments. The PM does not have it easy. First of all, you still need to keep your party together. Second, the majority is not an absolute majority to a point you can to rid..."


Bryan,

In my last post(s) there hasn't been a response. I know my obtuse outlook on history is perplexing (my family usually just roll their eyes and leave the room) but I would like your take. My concern in the first post was with Wilson's intellectual hubris combined with his belief that his ideas my be impeded by the constraints of the law. The second post was his belief in the parliamentary system and the (potential unchecked) power it provides to the PM. (And hopefully someone of his potential.)
So, am I correct in showing concern with such a personality desiring the reigns of a system that allows fewer checks than our current American system? Does such a personality beg watching? How say yee?

[Bryan]

Thanks Jim:

Wilson actually argues in his book that he wants more checks and balances, not less. He doesn't argue that we change to a parliamentary system. There are helpful elements in a parliamentary system like stronger party leadership and members of parliament having better access to treasury officials, so they can understand financial issues more than Congress.

Correct in showing concern? Sure. Wilson has ambition and it might border on hubris. But Cooper says that Wilson makes decisions by consulting others, so he wants advice, but we will see how this holds up over time. I don't see any evidence so far that he would want to break the law if that is what you mean by "impede by the constraints of the law."

[Darrell]

This quote from Wilson about how he lacked a scientific mind caught my eye: "I have no patience for the tedious toil of what is known as 'research'; I have a passion for interpreting great thoughts to the world." p. 51 Cooper. Even though Cooper goes on to say it was not quite true, it's an insight into Wilson's brimming self-confidence.

What surprised me most in these two chapters was the portrayal of Wilson as a passionate lover of his wife and a father who plays tag with his children -- only because my knowledge of him was limited to stern photographs like the one on the cover. I might have thought he was a taskmaster and disciplinarian so these anecdotes certainly round out the picture.

[Bryan]

Yeah, it is surprising. It goes to show you that there is more going on than what you see.

[David]

Wilsons intellectualism and idealogy caused the US to miss an opportunity to have some influence over the outcome of World War I

[Bryan]

David wrote: "Wilsons intellectualism and idealogy caused the US to miss an opportunity to have some influence over the outcome of World War I"

Thanks, David. Keep that thought in mind as we get to those chapters

[Vincent]

I saw a lot of comments on the attitude that Wilson had about teaching women and ask if maybe he felt that due to the long term positions at that time in the world maybe that men would participate more going forward. He doesn’t seem to have any contemporary women colleagues.

I also note that he seemed, until he went out on his own and even there not until he built the big house, to have had any money difficulties and I wonder how well his father was able to support him thru college etc. I don’t see any indication of any work by Wilson before law in Atlanta.

Regarding the question of Ann in mgs 43 about Congressmen being obligated to take a stand – that is not correct - it is up to their constituents to demand that or remove them or simply accept it.

Regarding Mark’s comment in msg 60 about the turndown of U of V - I agree - on pg. 74 Cooper states that Wilson praises Hamilton, Jackson and Lincoln but did not consider Jefferson a “great American” - I agree that he was less interested in the South and the lesser sophistication there. I would also wonder how a man putting Lincoln above Jefferson at that time could well have served in Virginia. Hamilton and Jackson - hmm – do they cancel each other out?

I see often in these chapters his “Southern” roots. Does pg. 63 last paragraph from the State “proposition that government rests ultimately on force” refer to the keeping the South in the Union by force? And that, pg. 74, he would see breaking up of slave’s families as the big issue makes me think he was not facing reality. Do we think that he didn’t read Uncle Tom’s Cabin? Maybe growing up in Virginia - no.

Harriet Beecher Stowe


It struck me as interesting that, pg. 35, Wilson’s essay he mentions the gradual achievement of self government in America and England compared to the convulsions in France and I think of the lack of “gradual achievement” of democracy we are trying to achieve in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Also as he developed his ideas we saw him almost exclusively in an academic environment. The Riis book How the Other Half Lives – pg. 65 – shows one of the only direct links to looking at the outside world except maybe the arrival of Ellen’s family to live with them thru these times.

Jacob A. Riis


He also seems to have been very successful at earning money – pg. 71 – in 1896 he made $4,000 extra with lectures etc. This is more that his base salary was I think. I think he was very driven to learn and reason and write and then driven to share this. But also his negotiating and working for position and money is almost a constant thread thru these chapters.

Sorry if this doesn't flow well - I tried to look at some of your comments and put my remarks together sometimes participating in the different streams here

[Bryan]

Thanks, Vince, glad you are catching up. I agree that Wilson seems driven to write and share to the public. It became one of his tools later in politics.

[Mike]

What's most fascinating about these chapters is how they demonstrate the development of a coherent understanding of the nature of democracy and its functioning (or the various modes in which democracies might function) by Wilson. People can critique and quibble over the merits of the specifics of his thought, but that's something that hasn't been seen in any of our presidents since Wilson - and perhaps only in Lincoln since the presidencies of the Founders. Today even wonkiness - which itself falls short of this kind of reflective and articulated political thought - gets derided as a shortcoming that may make a politician appear inaccessible to the electorate. (Obama seems to have been elected in spite of his apparent wonkiness; Al Gore's and Paul Ryan's wonkiness generally seem to be - or have been - acknowledged as liabilities....) The chapters on his emerging political career are coming up, so I'm interested in seeing if/how Cooper addresses how Wilson's image as an intellectual was perceived and received by the electorate; after all, this was an era when populism was still a palpable force in American politics - with someone like William Jennings Bryan still a viable political force.

[Bryan]

Thoughtful comments, Mike. It is indeed rare to have a president whose livelihood is political thought and the study of power.

Intellectuals usually are not seen in good light in politics, so we will see.

[Katy]

Thanks Mike, I enjoyed your insights.