The Dinner
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The ending of "The Dinner" (contains spoiler)
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Sherri
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Mar 31, 2013 05:03PM
Although I have read several books since finishing "The Dinner" I can't seem to stop puzzling over the ending. Many reviews have referred to the novel's shocking denouement, but I'm not sure I get it. Is it that Paul's son inherited his psychosis or that Claire is the true psychopath in the family? I know nothing about the Dutch judicial system, but why the hell isn't Paul in prison or at the least institutionalized in a facility for the criminally insane?
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Claire is without a doubt a sociopath.As for Paul, there was a suggestion on another thread that all of his violent episodes were really only what he wanted to do, not what he actually did. One would surmize that even in a permissive culture like the Netherlands, you would still go to jail for beating someone to a pulp like he said he did to the principal.
Please - please - please! Somebody explain the ending of this book. I finished it yesterday, and have re-read the last chapter several times, but I'm missing something!
Definitely would like an opinion about what others thought about the ending and what it meant????
Well, they are a family of sociopaths!! That much is clear to me. I suppose the ending is meant to be this horrible family closing ranks and protecting their own. They are not deluded, they know exactly what they are, they just don't feel that they are wrong. They will continue to protect their son, because they understand him and are just like him.
But the hospital results he found?
I'm not quite sure how to interrupt the hospital results, but I think their supposed to indicate that Claire has been manipulating him for his entire marriage.
Robin wrote: "But the hospital results he found?"Thank you, thank you! Were those significant? I was listening to audio tape so don't know if I "missed" all the boxes and what was checked and what wasn't and what it all means. Help!!
Another question I have is about Babette's phone: how did Bo's recorded message to her get retrieved if Paul had thrown her phone into the river?????
Rosella wrote: "I'm not quite sure how to interrupt the hospital results, but I think their supposed to indicate that Claire has been manipulating him for his entire marriage."I agree!!
Thanks, you two. Still wondering about that phone...any thoughts?
Vicki, I was wondering about the phone message too. Perhaps it was a slip up on the part of the author and his editors. Probably not, but that's my best guess.Also, you didn't miss any boxes on the audio. My edition of the book didn't include any visual of the form. The only information came from the text.
Thank you again. So what kind of information was on the form to be checked off? Was there any clue for him when he was reading it? He seemed surprised about something.
Vicki wrote: "Thank you again. So what kind of information was on the form to be checked off? Was there any clue for him when he was reading it? He seemed surprised about something."He was surprised by the notation "Decision By Parents"
He said he wasn't a part of any decision. For the life of me, I can't figure out what the decision was that she made (although the hospital checked the box "Decision By Parents" and not "Decision By Mother").
What "decision"? To take the amniocentesis test? Like there had to be permission from "mother" or "parents" and one of those boxes had to be checked? Thanks again! May just go to a bookstore this weekend and read the last few pages!
Vicki wrote: "What "decision"? To take the amniocentesis test? Like there had to be permission from "mother" or "parents" and one of those boxes had to be checked? Thanks again! May just go to a bookstore this w..."My copy was a library loan, and it has been returned, so I can't re-read it right now. I think I'll follow your footsteps to Barnes & Noble tomorrow and sit down again with the final few pages!
I was under the impression that the decision was to have the test. Perhaps it means she requested it instead of doing it at a doctor's request.
Rosella wrote: "I was under the impression that the decision was to have the test. Perhaps it means she requested it instead of doing it at a doctor's request."The amniocentesis test? Or the test to determine if Paul's "disease" was heridatory?
Paul's disease was one of the things determined by an amniocentesis test.
After I finished the book, I went back and re-read this portion about the amniocentesis test. There is really not a lot of information there. "Decision By Parents" is checked, and he says there is a paragraph of writing (by the doctor) but he doesn't read it, since he feels he's already invaded her privacy. My interpretation (and I know other people have drawn different conclusions) is that she had the baby tested for Paul's disorder, it came back positive, and she elected to go ahead with the pregnancy, and not tell him. I think this because she said that she liked him better OFF his medication. She liked him just the way he was - so of course she would want a child just like him. So yes, she might be the sickest one in the family.As for the phone, I just assumed there was a "call in" number where you could get your messages from any phone, so long as you provided a pin number, etc.
Regarding beating up his son's principal and not going to jail - I guess I didn't think anything of it. There are plenty of people who've committed assult and don't do any/much time. He could have done a few months in jail, been on probation, been fined, etc and not mentioned it. Or, maybe the principal had some reason not to press charges. Who knows.
In regards to the principal, any of Jillian's suggestions could be true. He also could have been charged and is out on bail awaiting trail.
Hi Rosella and Jillian! I went to my local bookstore and read that page about the amniocentesis test and got stuck on Paul's repeating "a copy." Meaning a copy of himself as Claire had described Michel when he was born. So now that I read Jillian's thoughts about that piece of paper it makes sense. If the test was to see if Michel had the same illness that Paul had and she decided to go ahead with the pregnancy because she wanted "another Paul" that makes sense. Re the phone message: the police would need to KNOW her pin number, right? Would Paul have wanted to take that chance of giving it to them not knowing what kind of messages might be on it? That is still one point that I see as a *flaw*.Re the principal. Another poster commented that these events of brutality could have been Paul's imagination. Hitting his brother with that hot frying pan certainly would have left some lasting scars at the very least on Serge's face, right?
It just dawned on me - I thought Paul's first 'episode' with whatever his 'disease' was didn't happen until AFTER Michel was born. If I'm remembering correctly, why would Claire have the amniotic fluid tested for an illness she didn't know about yet? HELP!!!!
Yeah, that's right! Because he was HOME taking care of Michel while she was in the hospital! O-kkkkkaaayyy. That means she was having the test because she was PREGNANT AGAIN and had an abortion while in the hospital after learning the results of the test. Otherwise, why have an amnio AFTER Michel was born? I think he was about 4 at that time. Good catch, Robin!
I already returned the library book, but I'm pretty sure Michel's name was actually mentioned on the paperwork, which means it happened during one of the routine visits she made to the hospital while pregnant with Michel. Remember, that the reason Paul wasn't sure if she had the test or not was because sometimes she insisted on going alone.As for why she was having the test before Paul's diagnosis, I can think of a few reasons:
1) She already suspected Paul had either that disorder or a similar disorder. Remember how she knew he went off his medicine without being told. Significant others can sometimes sense these things better than the person themselves. Also, remember that the symptoms of the disorder were what she liked about Paul, so perhaps she recognized from early in their relationship that he was mentally unstable and decided to keep that information to herself either because she liked it or because he was more useful to her when he was experiencing the symptoms. I think this is what we're supposed to believe about the paperwork, but there are some other explanations as well.
2) Claire wanted as much information as possible about her future child. In most cases, I would say this was because she was a concerned mother to be, but in Claire's case, I'd say it was because she was a psychopath.
3) Claire actually requested the test looking for a different condition, but the test might have also included Paul's disorder.
4) Claire was looking for answers to why her pregnancy was so difficult.
I guess I'm remembering, from what I read, that Paul remarked he had "found something" from when Claire was in the hospital. And she was in the hospital when he was already taking care of Michel. That's what I'm recalling. Unless she was in the hospital multiple times? I thought it was just one prolonged stay? And during that prolonged stay, Michel was being taken care of by Paul. And Paul definitely had his mental disorder at that time because of how he reacted to Serge's suggestion they take care of Michel. I swear, I DO NOT want to go back to the bookstore LOL!
That's right Vicki! Claire WAS hospitalized when Michel was a toddler (before the hospitalization when she had several surgeries, when Serge and his wife tried to take Michel away from Paul). So I'll bet she was pregnant a second time, had the amniotic fluid tested, the fetus was positive for whatever ailed Paul, and she had an abortion. Vicki, I too don't want to go back to Barnes & Noble again Saturday to read, re-read and re-read again the last few pages!
Paul also said that Claire visited the hospital for appointments while she was pregnant with Michael. Also, I believe the question isn't when Paul had his mental disorder, but when he had his diagnosis.
Thanks Ladies! I'm putting this one "to bed." Tired of talking about it. Now, I'm going to move on to CJ Box's NOWHERE TO RUN and make some comments there...
Oops! I do have one more question: that photo on the cover....what is that supposed to be???
Vicki wrote: "Another question I have is about Babette's phone: how did Bo's recorded message to her get retrieved if Paul had thrown her phone into the river?????"I thought it must have been through the phone co - the voicemail systems would also retain a version of the recording
Robin wrote: "That's right Vicki! Claire WAS hospitalized when Michel was a toddler (before the hospitalization when she had several surgeries, when Serge and his wife tried to take Michel away from Paul). So ..."By the end of the book, and given the description of the glassing of Serge, I ended up thinking that Claire had been glassed by Paul, or perhaps otherwise beaten up by him. I certainly didn't get the impression that she was pregnant. Claire's beating left her with some horrific injuries, which is why she didn't want Michel seeking her in hospital "in that condition". Her injuries were also such that she had to have three operations (same as Serge) to correct them. It also feeds into the caginess of Paul about Claire's looks: he refers to men who like to have a good looking wife, and refers to Babette as being very attractive, but leaves the impression (without saying it) that Claire is either very plain or (as I surmised by the end) disfigured in some way. Claire being beaten up also correlates with (1) Paul not being on meds at the time of her "illness" and (2) her statement that she prefers violent, unpredictable Paul to the way he is when on meds.
Robin wrote: "Rosella wrote: "I was under the impression that the decision was to have the test. Perhaps it means she requested it instead of doing it at a doctor's request."The amniocentesis test? Or the te..."
I thought the decision referred to was the decision not to terminate the pregnancy upon receiving the test results.
I thought the whole amnio test thing was not well researched and was quite a weak point in the book. I'm not a doctor, but I have had a few amnio tests and CVS tests in my time, and I was NEVER under the impression that they could pick up psychotic / mental disorders. This is particularly the case because, while susceptibility to psychoses may be inherited, the actual manifestation of them is a combination of genes and environmental triggers. I am unaware of any amnio test results which would come back and say "your baby has xyz psychotic disorder which means that he will display extreme anti-social characteristics and be strongly predisposed to violence ..." Also, having had a baby with spina bifida, this is not a condition which is usually picked up by amniocentesis (as was mentioned in the book). Although amnio testing can reveal spina bifida, this is because if specifically tested for, spinal fluid would be mixed in with the amniotic fluid. However, spina bifida is predominantly picked up in utero by measurements and careful review of the baby's spinal column in ultrasound tests, not by amniocentesis. Amnio is mainly used to test for genetic markers for particular abnormalities (eg, Down's Syndrome).
Sarah wrote: " I was NEVER under the impression that they could pick up psychotic / mental disorders. This is particularly the case because, while susceptibility to psychoses may be inherited, the actual manifestation of them is a combination of genes and environmental triggers."I believe the author wants us to suspend disblief and imagine a world where one particular psychotic disorder can be determined by an amino test. I believe this was one of his intentions -- along with avoiding the ire of anyone he misrepresented -- in giving Paul a fictious diagnosis.
Furthermore, while I also support the theory that mental illnesses resualt from a combination of herditary and enviromental sources, I believe there will come a day in the near future when doctors can predict at least a predisosition to certain mental illnesses based on the DNA found in such a test. I know researchers are currently trying to find just such a tell tale gentic sign for determining autism in vitro.
As an aside, thank you for the information about pre-natal testing.
We were left with the impression that a second murder could have been killed "Faso". The tests re decision parents I read as was Paul the father!! not checking for a genetic fault condition.We also had missing information regarding Paul's punishment for beating up the Headmaster? Serge never mentioning the frying pan incident!! Also to me Serge seemed the only person who wanted the boys to face the consequences for their actions!!
Saxonjous, who are you suggesting might have bee the father if not Paul?
Im thinking a character who we shall never know! A twist of fate could have been an affair with Serge but I doubt that! It just struck me the idea re the question of parentage?? Regarding tests for mental health conditions in the 80's they routinely checked re Downs if a suggested raised blood test!Unless Claire hid a health concern from Paul re a family inherited condition then my conclusion was dna test!!!Jules
I got something totally different from that. I thought "Decision by parents" indicated that the child was Serge's not Paul's, hence, Paul going on about how everyone talked about the child looking like him. This would explain Paul's lack of connection with Michel and the irony of Michel's "dear old dad" line.
That is a possibility however I had the overwhelming feeling Serge & Claire hated each other!!! & Serge was too "normal" for Claire!!!I think Claire would have sought the thrill of a one off night living on the efge as she was lets face it Manic!!!
I did think it a bit odd that many things were "hidden" from the reader, like the name of the restaraunts, the name of the disease that Paul has, etc., but that may have been part of the disease since it's mostly written from Paul's voice.Someone earlier on wrote that they thought Claire to be psychotic and I didn't think so at all. I thought it was totally Paul.
Saxonjus wrote: "I think Claire would have sought the thrill of a one off night living on the edge as she was lets face it Manic!!! " Claire was certainly unstable, but she showed no signs of mania.
I used the term manic as a general statement regarding Claire! She was unstable yes and she prefered her husband not to take his "meds"! Prefering his personality traits off his meds! She had no hesitation suggesting to her son to sort out his cousin! Regardless of the outcome and happily turned a blind eye! For her to blame the woman as at fault for her own death as she got in the way of the ATM! not a normal reaction and suggesting she herself Claire had issues!!!
Jillian wrote: "After I finished the book, I went back and re-read this portion about the amniocentesis test. There is really not a lot of information there. "Decision By Parents" is checked, and he says there is ..."Very well put. My thoughts on each exactly.
I am still considering "Decision by Parents!" as it is still a mystery! Could indicate DNA results,Chromosome Fault,An Inherited Condition! Maybe the writer wished to leave us a debate to concerntrate on!! I still feel as if I too like Paul questioned the parentage! & I still do!!
Sherri wrote: "Although I have read several books since finishing "The Dinner" I can't seem to stop puzzling over the ending. Many reviews have referred to the novel's shocking denouement, but I'm not sure I get ..."My question exactly! Why wasn't he prosecuted for assaulting the principal? I think it was a significant flaw in the plot leaving out any apparent (legal or otherwise) repercussions of that.
Why wasn't the truth found out about the boys? Why did Clare get away with assaulting Serge? Would the restaurant have banned her from her favourite restaurant? Why did no one follow up Faseo's disappearence?
Linda wrote: "Claire is without a doubt a sociopath.As for Paul, there was a suggestion on another thread that all of his violent episodes were really only what he wanted to do, not what he actually did. One ..."
Considering the portion of the book that describes him imagining, or possibly even hallucinating, acts of violence when he was teaching, that seems like a pretty good bet.
Saxonjus wrote: "Why wasn't the truth found out about the boys? Why did Clare get away with assaulting Serge? Would the restaurant have banned her from her favourite restaurant? Why did no one follow up Faseo's dis..."Faso's disappearance was followed up on. There was a description of his parents' appeal for information, and there was the discussion of the article that questioned whether adoptive parents would commit as many resources to find a child as biological parents.
I felt she decided to go ahead with the pregnancy regardless of the test result - not because she wanted a child "just like Paul" but she wanted to have a child regardless of what issues it had.
I did see the parents appeal for their son.I was surprised as Serge being in the public eye an eager journalist/member of his family didn't dig around a little deeper! You always either in books/films have someone dig out the truth!!!I feel adoptive parents would have the sane committment to their adopted child if suddenly disappeared.
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