Things I don't get the point of

[Toom]

1-What's the point of Mr Antolini being flitty?
2-and Why was there a Jane?

[Monty J]

Great topic!

Check out my topic: "Misjudging Mr. Antonlini." Holden's aversion to "flits" defines his orientation as heterosexual. He symbolizes one of the obstacles every adolescent boy must overcome on his path to adulthood--the potential pedophile. (Salinger the author is playing the role of "Catcher in the Rye" in making teenagers watchful for pedophiles and other sexual predators.)

If Holden is an archetypal teenage boy struggling with transition to adulthood, Jane would represent one of his key milestones in that transition, the girl-next-door love interest who helps to define him sexually. Fighting over Jane with his dorm-mate, Stradlater, is another milestone (jealousy) confronting adolescent males. Holden's disagreements with Jane help to sharpen our understanding of Holden, his fragile and deteriorating mental state. Arguments with girlfriends are part of the role of being an adolescent male. How we argue reveals our identity.

[Toom]

The first part makes a lot of sense; now that you've explained it. I can even understand now why Mr. Antolini himself (being the witty, 'friendly' guy that he was) had to be the potential pedophile.

As for the effect of Jane on his transition into adulthood, that still feels a bit vague to me. The only relationship he had with her, throughout the novel, was only what he remembered of her (and he remembered quite a lot). How does that "help to define him sexually"?

And also why would he need help on that part? It didn't seem like he was confused about his sexuality. Throughout the novel he is clearly attentive and attracted to good-looking girls.

Maybe on a small notion, when Luce used to tell them about the flitty guys and how you could turn into one overnight, he mentioned how that scared him a bit but that didn't seem as a confusion to me.

[Monty J]

Toom wrote: "How does that 'help to define him sexually'?"

By "define," I meant defining him to the reader as a character. Holden's interactions with the various characters in the story express his identity (define him) to the reader.

Even the fact that Holden remembered how Jane kept all her kings on the back row in the game of checkers tells us something about him, as did how he remembered the tender moment of kissing her. He was protective of her because he viewed Stradlater as sexually aggressive and wanted to protect her from him. His protective posture toward women is reinforced in how he treated the prostitute by not consummating sex with her. He at first wants to have sex, but changes his mind.

His thoughts about girls and interactions with them, including the one he phoned up late at night, define him as a fairly above average heterosexual male with a respectful and protective attitude toward the female gender.

We're getting a well rounded view of him through his actions, thoughts and interactions with various people. Jane is just one of those.

[C. J.]

Toom wrote: "1-What's the point of Mr Antolini being flitty?"

That was sad the reveal that something traumatizing had happened to Holden in the past.

And good observation there Monty. I guess that the reason for that part was to warn the readers of people like that.

[Monty J]

CJ wrote: "...to warn the readers of people like that. "

Yes, I see Holden as a character created by Salinger to share with readers some extremely difficult times in a teenage boy's life. (Holden refers it to "madman stuff.") Readers who are willing can learn from it.

I don't fully accept that Antolini was "flitty," but his behavior could be interpreted that way, as Holden did. If there was a sexual intention, it would be a warning that even people you trust can take advantage of you when you're vulnerable, so be careful who you trust.

[Amber]

I think Jane was there to show another person from Holden's past that he was incapable of letting go.

[Erin]

Mr. Antolini was one of Holden's beloved teachers. Look at how young Holden was when all of this was happening to him. He ran away from home, went out drinking, hired a prositute, and even when the world surrouned him, he still felt lonely. I think that maybe Mr. Antolini wasn't a pedophile, but the touch of the head was a sign of affection. Yes, I think everyone's first instinct would be what in the world are you doing, but as I look back at how young Holden was and how much he was going through, couldn't he have precieved that in the wrong way?

[Demetrius]

This is a very mature and interesting discussion. I can only add that in the book "Six Days of The Condor" about a book worm in danger, there is a line about Holden's "struggle with homosexuality."

[Demetrius]

This is a very mature and interesting discussion. I can only add that in the book "Six Days of The Condor" about a book worm in danger, there is a line about Holden's "struggle with homosexuality."

[Taylor]

I think Mr. Antolini was put in the story to further Holden's frsutration with the adult world. The entire story Holden searches for someone-an adult, specifically- that will listen to him. And when Mr. Antolini does, he has ulterior motives. (the pedophile-y stuff.)
As for Jane, I think she represents Holden's confusion/off-set with sexuality. He likes Jane, but he refuses to see her in a sexual manner. He'd rather see her as the girl who was terrible at checkers than as a sexual being. Once again, he's clinging to the innocence of childhood and trying to avoid the sexually-driven adult world.

[Tim]

Kevin wrote: "I think there is ample - though not decisive - evidence that Mr. Antolini is a closeted homosexual. It does seem clear that the idea of this makes Holden a little uncomfortable - and curious also. ..."

I agree. The age difference between Mr and Mrs Antolini (Holden says she's "about sixty years older") and the fact that she was "lousy with dough" (i.e. rich) hints that it's a marriage of convenience. Holden mentions that they were never in the same room together at home, yet they we're always kissing each other in public. (Keeping up appearances.)

Also, Holden was sleeping in just his shorts because Mr Antolini had forgotten to lend him some pajamas. Did Mr Antolini forget the pajamas accidentally on purpose?

Finally, Mr Antolini's reaction when Holden wakes up. He says he was "simply sitting here, admiring--" like it's normal for a man to get drunk then pet or pat a 16-year-old boy on the head after you've sent your wife off to bed. Holden says MrAntolini "was trying to act very goddam casual and cool and all, but he wasn't any too goddam cool. Take my word."

That Holden later questions whether he was mistaken about Mr Antolini simply shows how naive Holden was.

[Josh]

But what if, if Holden had not interrupted him, Antolini had said something like, "admiring how peaceful you looked sleeping--I've never seen you ever look peaceful"? If Antolini was really on his way to bed, like he had said, and had just stopped in to check on Holden before turning in, it would make sense after the talk they had just had, with Antolini expressing his worries about Holden, to admire the contrast from Holden's waking turmoil, and the peacefulness of him at sleep. Then, being quite drunk, is it unthinkable for the paternal desire to pat a child's head, an innocent desire to touch what you are worrying over and fond of, to occur to him? If Antolini was really making a "flitty pass" at Holden, was patting him on the head the most seductive way to go about it? With Antolini's alcohol-lowered inhibitions, and a boy asleep only in his shorts, what pedophile would choose head-patting as the expression of his desire?

Holden, as a teenage boy, especially in the 40's/50's, would initially overreact at anything he considered an overtly homosexual incident. Even today in our increasingly accepting culture, the majority of teenage boys have some measure of homophobia (which I have witnessed firsthand teaching middle and high school). And remember the context of the incident: Holden was probably still feeling the alcohol from his binging earlier that night, and then was startled awake. His reaction comes from the shock of being awoken suddenly, his societally-ingrained homophobia mixed with teenage-boy fear, and an alcohol-diluted reasoning process.

I see the incident between Holden and Antolini as another example of the self-fulfilling prophecy of Holden's disappointment with things. Anything good that happens to him he consciously or unconsciously ruins: he contrives ways to dismiss every bit of good advice he receives (leaving Mr. Spencer because he is fixated on his old age, and "grippe", driving Carl Luce away by asking overly personal questions about his sex life, ending Antolini's advice by yawning). Holden's reaction to Antolini's head-patting becomes a way for him to isolate himself again, and run away from receiving the help he needs.

[Richard]

Fantastic thread! And between you, Monty and Josh, you've said more than I could. Great analysis. I spent some time trying to see how the pass might not be a pass, and failing. I think you've made a very clear and strong case, Josh.

[Monty J]

Josh wrote: "I see the incident between Holden and Antolini as another example of the self-fulfilling prophecy of Holden's disappointment with things."

Agreed. (Good post, Josh.)

Holden is the ultimate unreliable narrator; so the reader is on his own to search for meaning. This is one of the great challenges of the book, and one of the things, that makes it so fascinating and controversial. To advanced readers it's a bonanza of possibility. To others it's a frustration.

Salinger doesn't spell anything out for the reader; so the reader must work. Many readers don't want to work; they just want a relaxing read. They won't find it here.

[Tim]

Josh wrote: "But what if, if Holden had not interrupted him, Antolini had said something like, "admiring how peaceful you looked sleeping--I've never seen you ever look peaceful"? If Antolini was really on his ..."


There's no evidence that Holden dismisses Mr. Antolini's advice. When he yawned it was because he was tired: "I kept trying not to yawn. It wasn't that I was bored or anything--I wasn't--but I was so damn sleepy all of a sudden."
When he does yawn, he feels guilty about it: "Then all of a sudden, I yawned. What a rude bastard, but I couldn't help it!"

Then just before falling asleep: "I laid awake for just a couple of seconds thinking about all that stuff Mr. Antolini'd told me. About finding the size of your mind and all. He was really a pretty smart guy. But I couldn't keep my goddam eyes open, and I fell asleep."

Even after the patting/petting incident, Holden still admires Mr. Antolini: "I mean I started thinking that even if he was a flit he certainly'd been very nice to me."

Holden's confusion over the incident contributes to his depression.

[Monty J]

Tim wrote: "Even after the patting/petting incident, Holden still admires Mr. Antolini: "I mean I started thinking that even if he was a flit he certainly'd been very nice to me."

Yes, and Holden keeps the paper on which Antolini wrote down the Wilhelm Stekel quote, which is evidence that he admires Antolini. Otherwise, he'd have pitched it out.

[Tim]

Yes, and the fact that Holden remembers what Mr. Antolini said to him months after the conversation lets us know that Holden gave it some importance.

BTW, I don't agree that Holden drove Luce away. The first thing Luce tells Holden when he meets him in the bar is that he can only stay a couple of minutes. Holden does wind him up a bit by asking over personal questions, but Holden also points out that Luce was a hypocrite, as Luce was always asking other people personal questions. Also, the conversation had turned to psychoanalysis before Luce left, and Luce doesn't appear annoyed. He just had to rush off.

All that being said, I do agree that Holden brings much of the trouble on himself.

[Tim]

Salinger lets the reader in on things Holden remains clueless about.

Look at all the chapters which link together to tie up what would otherwise be a very loose narrative: Chapter 1 Holden is in a mental hospital being treated for physical and mental illness. Chapter 2 we hear about his essay on Egyptian mummies. In chapter 25 (the next to last) Holden's in a museum going to see the mummies, which brings us back towards the beginning. Chapter 26 we come back full-circle to the mental hospital. The title of the book is linked: He hears a young boy singing the song, later he tells Phoebe what he thinks the catcher in the rye represents. Chapter 19 has Carl Luce telling students about closeted homosexuals. This could link to chapter 24 and the incident with Mr. Antolini. Holden all but tells us that Antolini's marriage is a marriage of convenience. But, of course, he can't tell us because he hasn't figured it out. While Holden second guesses himself after the incident, he doesn't tell us what he thinks at the time the narration is taking place. With the benefit of hindsight and probably months of psychoanalysis/counselling, what he does say is: "Then something happened. I don't even like to talk about it." If he's still uncomfortable about it, what does that tell you?

[Tim]

The incident with Mr. Antolini also links to Jane Gallagher. Holden tells us that her stepfather is an alcoholic who runs around the house in the buff. When Jane starts crying after refusing to answer a question from her stepfather, Holden suspects something is wrong and asks her if the stepfather had done anything to her. When she says no, Holden's so naive that he takes her word for it, and that's the end of it as far as he's concerned; it remains a mystery to him. Compare that to his reaction to what happened with Mr. Antolini. In both cases the reader can figure out what is really going on, but Holden chooses a more innocent interpretation of events.

[Monty J]

Tim wrote: "If he's still uncomfortable about it, what does that tell you? "

It tells us he could be a homophobe, as his derogatory comments about gays proves, e.g., calling them "flits."

Holden was in a fragile mental state. His behavior, thoughts and his hospitalization for mental care evidence this. And he admits it, labeling it "this madman stuff."

I suspect Salinger was telling us that Antolini may have been gay, but not a pedophile. A pedophile would have done much more than pat his head.

[Tim]

Holden was definitely homophobic. He said that Luce scared the hell out of him by saying you could turn into a homosexual "practically overnight."

The book was published in 1951, so Salinger was limited in how far he could go in describing a homosexual encounter.
Who knows what Antolini would've done if he hadn't been interrupted? But, Holden does tell us that Antolini was sitting on the floor in the dark--dark enough that Holden was stumbling around while getting dressed--so what exactly was he admiring? Even f it was light enough for Antolini to see anything, it doesn't make sense that he was admiring how peaceful Holden looked when asleep. If that were the case, why would he risk waking him up by patting him on the head?

I think we do have a self-fulfilling prophecy here: Antolin predicts that Holden will have a terrible fall, he then contributes to that fall. Holden spiraled rapidly into depression after the incident.

Antolini was the one adult that Holden could trust and confide in. Given his homophobia, it's unlikely that Holden would feel comfortable around him again. No wonder he was depressed.

[Charles]

Toom wrote: "The first part makes a lot of sense; now that you've explained it. I can even understand now why Mr. Antolini himself (being the witty, 'friendly' guy that he was) had to be the potential pedophile..."

When you're a teenage boy you don't need a relationship to cause uproars and definitional problems. Imaginary girls or ones you don't know, or want to but can't, will do just fine. As for issues of homosexuality, they're universal. Resolving that is one of the important tasks of adolescent boys, some of whom refuse to deal with it.

[Jose]

Toom wrote: "1-What's the point of Mr Antolini being flitty?
2-and Why was there a Jane?"

I really liked this book, it broke my heart bc the story was so sad (would've been more if I had paid better attention to some paragraphs), especially the characters being children going thru pains. But I never saw a book that had such overt homophobia in it. I thought it was disgusting. Ofc books from the 50's and older would be bound to show the nasty culture of that past, but it's very surprising that my first encounter with the raw prejudice of the past was in this book. I read many others and none had touched on this theme. I guess most would portray this in an hideous way, after all it's been only 60 years or so that the hypocrites removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders. Like, who has the right to define what is normal and what is not? Nobody has, they try to do it thru reasonable means, but in this case is was mere bigotry that kept in that list for so long.