SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club discussion
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What does a book need to have to be classed as fantasy
It's a pretty wide open range, IMO. There is the standard Swords & Sorcery type that walked straight out of a basement D&D marathon.
But there are also those that are little more than period dramas set in an invented world with very little or any magic.
But there are also those that are little more than period dramas set in an invented world with very little or any magic.
I appear to be stuck between two camps with my books. I'm thinking the sword and sorcery camp might not like them, though I'm willing to be proved wrong. The readers who don't read fantasy (with a role of their eyes) tend to love them when they give them a go. But they talk about the quality of the writing and depth of the characters.I tend to read more obscure stuff that falls into a fantasy bracket, but isn't what, I believe most fantasy readers would go for. I may be wrong but books like The End of Mr. Y by Scarrlett Thomas. In comparison I love Terry Goodkind's sword of truth series (I've read that he doesn't consider his writting to be conventional fantasy either).
Hi Kathy. Id say my books are more YA fantasy Alloria certainly is. Fuel to the Fireis darker, so I'm not really sure where the boundary falls. In both, the fantasy elements tend to take a back seat. The feedback I've had tends to focus on the language and themes. Not complaining about that, but I wondered if most fantasy readers expect something along the lines of lord of the rings, with massive battles etc
It is an interesting question DavidI tend to think 'Fantasy' proper has several 'streams'
You have classic 'sword and sorcery' which sort of looks back to Conan.
Then you have the Tolkienesque stuff (I like Tolkiens work, LotR, Hobbit, some of the other stuff is probably a bit specialised, but there's a lot of 'sub-Tolkien stuff out there.)
Then there's Modern fantasy, alternative London,another series I read had a modern world with a 18th century world in parallel concentrated on harbours and at sea.
Then you get the modern fantasy comedy stuff like 'the Banned Underground series'
I don't regard the 'vampire' stuff as fantasy, preferring to see it as romance or horror.
I think my books are in the Sword and Sorcery section, but with not that much sorcery. Kathy's comment about l alternative worlds or creatures, or a quest' is pertinent. I've tried hard to make sure the world is properly alternative and the background feels 'real'. I've tried to play down the 'quest' element, although the books all have someone travelling to achieve something. ;-)
Would you say your books are historical fantasy then
David wrote: "Would you say your books are historical fantasy then"A tricky question
I do read a lot of history and that does, hopefully, inform my writing.
I also try and get things right, so that if my character builds or paddles a coracle (for example), I'll check on how these things are done before writing about them.
The battle scenes I have taken a lot of care over, in an attempt to get them 'right' and 'historically correct.'
So perhaps I'm at the historical edge of 'sword and sorcery'
There is magic, it can be powerful, it can be useful but as my hero says when asked
“What sort of magic do they study?”
“All of it, and the less I have to do with it the happier I am.
It’s just a complicated way of doing something anyone can do, but quicker and with more undesirable side effects.”
How would you place your books?
How would you place your books?That’s put me on the spot :-?
Like you I find it tricky to answer. I like to explore social issues and philosophical ideas by putting them in setting far removed from what we are used to living in. For example in the “Fuel to the Fire” the planet is separated into two parallel planets that exist in the same place, one supposed pure evil, the other goodness. The question I explore is whether one can truly exist without the other. Further to this is how the situation affects the population and what happens when they come together. “Alloria” delves into the question of nature versus nurture.
That all sounds a little dry, doesn’t it?
Therein is the main reason for a fantasy setting, I still want an exciting read. I hold the magic back, because I don’t want the issues to be resolved too easily. If anything it sometimes gets in the way and makes matters worse; hence the title of the first book “Fuel to the Fire”.
In light of Magic making things too easy, how do you tackle that, Jim, if indeed you do?
It's a wider category than even I imagined. I was informed that my latest release, Move, should be classified as fantasy, although the only "otherworldly" element is a djinn. Everything else takes place in the world as we know it.
I really should read more fantasy if I'm going to write it. I've not read that one either Kathy. Having said that, at least I can't be accused of mirroring other stories.
I read Magician years ago and really enjoyed that. I also enjoyed Orson Scot Card's Alvin Maker series which was only marginally fantasy.
David wrote: "In light of Magic making things too easy, how do you tackle that, Jim, if indeed you do?"I started from the other end :-)
I remember reading an interesting article in a Fantasy Role-Playing Magazine years back where the writer had looked at a world where magic was as common as it is in the 'Dungeons and Dragons' background and tried to work out how magic would impact on the world. As an example, no one would ever buy oil for a lamp, you'd just have your local magician cast 'permanent light' on a stone and that would act as a lamp forever.
Similarly with all the flying magical creatures and characters about castles would probably have nets to prevent access or even a roof which could be swept clear by archers.
So the more 'normal' a world is, the less magic there is happening within it.
So for me Magic is something which characters call upon rarely. In Swords for a Dead Ladythere is virtually none, (although there might be occasional 'supernatural' events, or perhaps not). In the next, Dead man riding East magic happens at the start which creates the problem the protagonists have to solve, by none magical means. Again there is also the presence of evil, and a hint of the supernatural.
In the third book, The Flames of the City there is more supernatural and evil, it is even possible that a god is destroyed in the course of the story, (but was it a god and have they destroyed it?). In this book magic and magicians are a tool deployed sparingly by powerful non-magical characters to achieve things faster and a lot more easily than they could by conventional means. Effectively magic makes it possible to do some non-magical things more easily.
Sherri wrote: "It's a wider category than even I imagined. I was informed that my latest release, Move, should be classified as fantasy, although the only "otherworldly" element is a djinn. Everything else takes ..."Yes it's the sheer width of the category that has always interested me. I love the work of Jack Vance, but some of his stuff happens in a fuzzy borderland between Sci Fi and Fantasy
Kathy wrote: "Not all Fantasy is about battles. Mists of Avalon comes to mind, which was much more about magic. Darkover has one on one sword fights sometimes but it's much more about psychic abilities and a mock-medieval society. ..."I think one of the joys of Fantasy is that whilst you might 'start' with a mock-medieval society, you can entwine other things into it. I've managed to feature high fashion, opera, and iron ore mining :-)
Just out of curiosity and we're talking fantasy types, has anyone else read Lord Dunsany 'At the edge of the world'http://www.amazon.co.uk/At-The-Edge-O...
And how do you rate it as fantasy?
Another book I've not read. Very reasonably priced, but alas I have so little time, and too many books already sitting on my to read pile
I wouldn't let that worry you, it is a collection of some very brief short stories, and it's the sort of thing that you can just keep in a pocket, or in the car or whatever, ideal for the dentists :-)
Ideal for the dentists. Does it numb pain?
David wrote: "Ideal for the dentists. Does it numb pain?"No, it's a slim volume and flies well. You can skim it and knock the needle out of his hand from the other side of the room
As it is so competatively priced I will give it a go Jim I recently had a dental visit, so i'll have plenty of time to practise
David wrote: "As it is so competatively priced I will give it a go Jim I recently had a dental visit, so i'll have plenty of time to practise"If I can ever write a short story as evocative as "Idle Days on the Yann" I'll call myself a fantasy writer
Ok I've ordered it. one pence to buy. £2.80 to post; must be heavy wrapping paper.If it's rubbish I'll chuck it at you instead of the dentist ;~)
It's a book I'd pluck out of the air and run with :-)edited to add, I don't believe I've just been promoting an author who has been dead 56 years.
Time for us yet then Jim. I reckon I've got around thirty years left in me, plus another 56; that gives me almost 90 years to make a few sales.
David wrote: "Time for us yet then Jim. I reckon I've got around thirty years left in me, plus another 56; that gives me almost 90 years to make a few sales."I wonder what Lord Dunsany's sales figures are, a surprising amount of his stuff is still out there
I remember, briefly in the 1980s, our local Waldenbooks had a Science Fantasy shelf. That's precisely the genre I like to read and write- if I'm not neck deep in some pulp.
C.e. wrote: "I remember, briefly in the 1980s, our local Waldenbooks had a Science Fantasy shelf. That's precisely the genre I like to read and write- if I'm not neck deep in some pulp."You could put most/all of Roger Zelazny's work on such a shelf and not get much argument from me.
As far as the earlier question about preventing magic from dominating all aspects of life, it's often some combination of magic being hard to do (requiring some combination of rare talent and training), as well as incurring costs of one sort or another (material costs, physical strain, potential side-effects, horrible repercussions if you screw up, etc.), generally with the costs getting greater as the power/impact of the magic increases.
I think you have to do this to magic or you end up with it running out of control and you're struggling to cope with the implications
I agree, I've generally gone down the route of novices who's power is not yet developed enough. And a balance where if magic is used there's a sacrifice to be made somewhere along the line.
Thinking about it, it might be an interesting idea to put together a world where magic works and is pretty universal.To an extent Matthew Hughes suggests this in his Archonate books and you get short trips into such worlds
Fantasy is a very broad genre, and like others have said, all you need is one fantastic element like a djinni or magic to label your work as fantasy. Within the fantasy genre are several sub-genres including historical, epic, sword and sorcery, urban, and literary. I always liked the epic stuff myself, as well as historical like Katherine Kurtz or Naomi Novik. If you want epic, there's a ton out there--Anne McCafferey, David Eddings, Robin Hobb, Mercedes Lackey, Margaret Weiss and Tracey Hickman . . . . the list goes on.I'd definitely recommend reading some of the greats if you plan on writing in the genre.
The most important thing in any fantasy world is to have rules that bind what magic can do. There should always be a cost to have power.
Could be an interesting concept for a novel: what would life be like if anyone could learn to cast death spells for a fairly minimal cost in training and casting materials. Then you could create an allegory relating to gun control questions and issues (and be prepared for the wrath of one side or other of the issue if you come down in favor of the other side).
Like that Charles, always makes a read more interesting, I think, if it works on two levels.
Charles wrote: "Could be an interesting concept for a novel: what would life be like if anyone could learn to cast death spells for a fairly minimal cost in training and casting materials. Then you could create an allegory relating to gun control questions and issues (and be prepared for the wrath of one side or other of the issue if you come down in favor of the other side). ..."I'm a Brit, our gun control is more extreme than anything anyone in the US is campaigning for. Ironically that means that I could follow through with the allegory over here and run into no problems at all :-))
Looking at the death spell issue, it does spin off all sorts of sorts of interesting ideas.
The one I like is the frantic six months very senior mages spent working on 'protection from death spell' because too many of them were being gunned down by disgruntled apprentices.
Then there is the trade in protective runes and amulets.
Then think what it does to dueling? Mages refining the spell to make it faster to say, others countering with really brief 'strike dumb' spells
i apologize if it's been mentioned already as i didn't read everyone's comments, but i feel that fantasy in general almost can be classified as a world removed from our historical advances in science technology. in that way the author can supply his or her own "technology" and give common things, events, tasks and new perspective by explaining it in a different way. the fact that many fantasy books take place in a medieval setting is an obvious one based on this assumption. there is no email, there are no phones, how does one communicate? divination, ravens, spells, astrology, etc. there are no planes, how does one travel? dragons, flying carpets, spells, superpowers, magic, etc.
this differs from say science fiction, for example, where the idea of science and technology isn't removed so much as amended and extrapolated.
i'm certain one of you could find an example that would collapse this argument but that was the first thing that sprang to mind: creating a world that is other worldly not only in the sense of its inhabitants but in how they have adapted, and how differently technology evolves when different rules are applied.
I'm working on my new fantasy series that begins with Awakening. I'm sticking with a more traditional style of medieval fantasy fiction. While I do use magic in my stories, you can use other elements that are similar to magic. Or I suppose you could do without any magic or magic like system.I tend to feel that fantasy involves an imaginary world that contains elements such as, creatures, fictional races, and maybe even weapons that do exist in reality. It can be difficult define and I am sure there are many different views on this subject.
That's the joy of fantasy. You can mingle so many elements.
To me, fantasy is fiction set in a non-futuristic universe that isn't our own. That covers a broad range of books, from the traditional 'Sword and Sorcery' brand to Urban Fantasy to Fairytales. You can even do away with supernatural elements entirely, such as werewolves, vampires, dragons, magic, divine intervention--making the story Hard Fantasy. That's what I prefer to write, simply because I feel that human stories can be intriguing enough without the need for 'mystical' elements.Don't get me wrong; that won't stop me from enjoying any other fantasy. I enjoy reading how other authors deeal with building a believable culture around magic. It's a problem of convenience, as others have already noted on this thread. Why cook a meal when a wizard can just conjure one up for you? Every author handles this issue differently.
One of the joys of definitions is where stuff falls through the cracks. Yours would stick Starwars into fantasy (which I rather agree with) but makes Doctor Who and Red Dwarf SF.Actually you've flagged up a point that we often forget. Whilst we have agonised about the effects of magic on society, I do wonder whether SF writers have considered all the knock on effects of the science they're writing about :-)
For me (though I have not read a lot of SF) the best SF books are based of true science theory. Years later the futuristic prediction is accepted as norm. Does that then render those books science faction?
Thomas wrote: "To me, fantasy is fiction set in a non-futuristic universe that isn't our own. That covers a broad range of books, from the traditional 'Sword and Sorcery' brand to Urban Fantasy to Fairytales. You..."Haha true actually. I frowned at that for a few moments before remembering, "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away".
David wrote: "For me (though I have not read a lot of SF) the best SF books are based of true science theory. Years later the futuristic prediction is accepted as norm. Does that then render those books scienc..."
A more interesting question is whether SF actually drives science. Did Arthur C Clarke predict things or did his suggestions stir people into looking into those areas?
I suspect there will be elements of both, and I'd suggest that this prodding and suggesting is perhaps something that great SF can do.
I'm not sure but I cannot off the top of my head think of any cases where 'Fantasy' predicts
Thomas wrote: "Haha true actually. I frowned at that for a few moments before remembering, "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away". ..."Yes, it came as a surprise to me as well. But I think your definition works in the case of Star Wars. It's a fairy story complete with Princess, magic swords and the rest of it ;-)
Just to add on to some of the already great things said above. Fantasy also tends to be a form of genre writing as opposed to say Magical Realism (although you could get into an argument about people like Ursula Leguin). Most people would probably not call Mark Helprin fantasy for example. I think there is also some of what Tolkein called "Escape" like when he said, "Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory."
And then there are stories like the Steven Brust "Dragaera" books: 99% of the time you're totally immersed in a fantasy story; but here and there -- and not even in every book -- you find hints that it's really science fiction, even though I'd still classify it as fantasy, because "I know it when I see it." :-)PS: The same could be said for Silverberg's Lord Valentine's Castle.
I know what you mean about Lord Valentine's Castle. The Warlock in Spite of Himselfis a similar case
I don't get too hung up on labels (which isn't to deny that they can be useful). If pushed, I expect fantasy to include at least a dash of magic as its defining characteristic. Faeries, unicorns, princesses in towers etc, medievalish setting etc are all optional, but magic is necessary, imo.
Cecily wrote: "I don't get too hung up on labels (which isn't to deny that they can be useful). If pushed, I expect fantasy to include at least a dash of magic as its defining characteristic. Faeries, unicorns, p..."I agree that magic may be the key, but are we running into Clarke's third law here?
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
SciFi and Fantasy eBook Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Sliders: The Novel (other topics)The Warlock in Spite of Himself (other topics)
Awakening (other topics)
Swords for a Dead Lady (other topics)
Dead man riding East (other topics)
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This made me wonder what classes fantasy as fantasy? What must it have in th reader's mind, and are some books labled as fantasy not actually fantsy at all?