Classics and the Western Canon discussion
The Magic Mountain
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Week 1.2 - Through Chapter 2
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At 98 Thorwald wrote: "The Castorp family was protestant because most of all citizens of Hamburg were members of this one and only protestant church, there. If Hans Castorp came from Munich, he would have been catholic without a question.
Mmmm. When you write it that way, I think, If Hans Castorp came from London/Paris/Prague, he would have...fought on the opposite side during the war [almost] without a question.
Kinda makes one think about how much our belief-system is based on our sense of identity, and how much our identity is based on geography.
Hans Castorp has almost unthinkingly accepted as his own the value system of upper-class Hamburg merchants---their financial acumen, their industrial skills and technological know-how...good table manners; a melding, perhaps, of his grandfather and his guardian. And he doesn't WISH to examine these values or change them.
Page 144: "Hans Castorp was, for his own person, quite without arrogance; yet a larger arrogance, the pride of caste and tradition, stood written on his brow and in his sleepy eyes, and voiced itself in the conviction of his own superiority, which came over him when he measured Frau Chauchat for what she was. It was this which he neither could, nor wished to, shake off."
Belonging to the group gives his a larger sense of himself---more than he would have had stand-alone.
Settembrini, too, takes--in seemingly large part--the pride in the West and especially Italy ["freedom, culture, and enlightenment"...and "Dante"---though I must say Settembrini's Dante is not exactly the Dante I read in Divine Comedy]. He also takes/accepts/inherits the identity and values of his grandfather and father---technology doesn't move the world--literature and word-skills do that. For Settembrini, too, seeing himself as an Italian, an inheritor and contributor to literature, gives him a larger sense of himself than he would have had [probably] as simply a patient at the Sanatorium International.
So if I'm trying--every so often--so think of MM as having some small-scale similarity to pre-WWI Europe, this might fit the bill. Each country/ the people of each country, holding their own countries superior, their own values superior, AND not particularly wishing to examine these values or change them...or consider the perspectives of others?
Mmmm. When you write it that way, I think, If Hans Castorp came from London/Paris/Prague, he would have...fought on the opposite side during the war [almost] without a question.
Kinda makes one think about how much our belief-system is based on our sense of identity, and how much our identity is based on geography.
Hans Castorp has almost unthinkingly accepted as his own the value system of upper-class Hamburg merchants---their financial acumen, their industrial skills and technological know-how...good table manners; a melding, perhaps, of his grandfather and his guardian. And he doesn't WISH to examine these values or change them.
Page 144: "Hans Castorp was, for his own person, quite without arrogance; yet a larger arrogance, the pride of caste and tradition, stood written on his brow and in his sleepy eyes, and voiced itself in the conviction of his own superiority, which came over him when he measured Frau Chauchat for what she was. It was this which he neither could, nor wished to, shake off."
Belonging to the group gives his a larger sense of himself---more than he would have had stand-alone.
Settembrini, too, takes--in seemingly large part--the pride in the West and especially Italy ["freedom, culture, and enlightenment"...and "Dante"---though I must say Settembrini's Dante is not exactly the Dante I read in Divine Comedy]. He also takes/accepts/inherits the identity and values of his grandfather and father---technology doesn't move the world--literature and word-skills do that. For Settembrini, too, seeing himself as an Italian, an inheritor and contributor to literature, gives him a larger sense of himself than he would have had [probably] as simply a patient at the Sanatorium International.
So if I'm trying--every so often--so think of MM as having some small-scale similarity to pre-WWI Europe, this might fit the bill. Each country/ the people of each country, holding their own countries superior, their own values superior, AND not particularly wishing to examine these values or change them...or consider the perspectives of others?
Kathy wrote @97: "Jonathan wrote: "Thorwald wrote: "The Castorp family is with 99% certainty a protestant family, not catholic."No Kathy, that is not correct. The Dutch Reformed Church was the official church in the Dutch Republic, and it was Calvinist. The official church in the free City of Hamburg was, since the 16th century, Lutheran.
At the Peace of Augsburg (1555) it was agreed that every local ruler (duke, bishop, free city council or whatever) in the German Empire should decide whether his/its subjects would be Catholic or Lutheran (Evangelical). In both cases the result would be one official church: the church of Rome, or the reformed Landeskirche. This was called the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio (whose realm, whose religion): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_re....
In 1648, after another century of religious warfare (true, there were a few other points of disagreement), the principle became permanent, with Calvinism added as a third official option. To be sure, the principle never excluded religious toleration, and in fact some protestant regions, like Brandenburg (Berlin) were in fact quite tolerant. The same applied also to most free cities, e.g. Frankfurt/Main.
The idea that the local prince (c.q. town council) should decide the religious denomination was obsolete at the time Napoleon occupied Germany. Its last vestiges would be done away with in the revolution of 1848. Still, as late as the 1870's chancellor Bismarck would launch his Kulturkampf (Culture Struggle) against German Catholicism (or, as Bismarck understood it, against the influence of the Pope on German affairs): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf.
More on the Lutheran-Evangelical Churches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luthera....
Wendel wrote: "This was called the principle of Cuius regio, eius religio ..."Thanks to Wendel, this is indeed the historical background.
Everyman wrote: "Fascinating. So it seems that for Germans at the time religion was more a matter of social environment that theological belief."
Absolutely. I assume similar effects exist elsewhere, or maybe, this is even the normal situation of human societies!
To choose your religion freely, even to think about, does not seem to be the normal case, until today. In Germany we can study this again with immigrant families: Leaving your religion means loss of honour and social isolation if not being hunted down to death by your very own beloved family.
Great book recommandation:
Rafik Shami: The dark side of Love:
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Love-...
Rafik Shami is a great oriental story teller! You will love the book although one woman is killed after the other (and sometimes a man, too) because of the great flow of story telling. Rafik Shami is a male Sheherazade :-)
The book describes the situation in Syria from where the author fled to Germany in the 1950s (?) (not because of war or dictatorship but because of forbidden love), but nowadays the situation in German cities is not any more so different.
Wendel wrote: "Kathy wrote @97: "Jonathan wrote: "Thorwald wrote: "The Castorp family is with 99% certainty a protestant family, not catholic."No Kathy, that is not correct. The Dutch Reformed Church was the of..."
OK, I stand corrected, though the Dutch Reformed Church did apparently get its start in Germany at the Synod of Emden, if Wikipedia is to be believed. (I have not double-checked this with my Reformed Church source...) But it's my understanding that Lutheran and Reformed are two different Protestant churches, and HC's family is identified as "Reformed." Is this being used here as a more "generic" term, as in "reformed Lutheran"?
Kathy wrote: "Wendel wrote: "Kathy wrote @97: "Jonathan wrote: "Thorwald wrote: "The Castorp family is with 99% certainty a protestant family, not catholic."No Kathy, that is not correct. The Dutch Reformed Ch..."
I think I brought up that I "supposed" that the Reformed Church was part of the Lutheran Church, because Martin Luther was from (or spent most of his time in) Germany. I did not say, nor intend to mislead anyone into believing, that I was absolutely sure on that point. I was only making an educated guess. As it stands right now, someone not in this group pointed out to me that the Reformed Church is Calvinist. To the best of my understanding, the Calvinists and the Lutherans are both Protestants. I do believe, at least as it is taught in history classes, that any non-Catholic Christianity stems back to Martin Luther who was dubbed "The Great Reformer". It would be interesting to find out if Calvinism has its roots in the Lutheran Church. Perhaps, Calvin himself broke with the Lutherans due to disagreements or something to that effect.
Notwithstanding, we can safely say that Hans Castorp was not Catholic, but the religious rite discussed in Chapter 2, definitely has its roots in Catholicism.
Martin Luther was the central priestly figure in Germany in the 16th century. His writings were also used by Nazi Germany to justify their hatred and persecution of the Jews. According to wikipedia, "In his later years, in deteriorating health, Luther became increasingly antisemitic, writing that Jewish homes should be destroyed, their synagogues burned, money confiscated and liberty curtailed." There are two schools of thought on Luther's effect on the Nazis. Some say that Hitler idolized Martin Luther and took these ideas to heart; after all, the pious dictator did consider himself to be a good "Christian". The second opinion is that the Nazis dug up his works and used them to support their already established anti-semitic agenda. I suggest that both schools of thought are partially true. Martin Luther wrote some horrible things about the Jews, because when he witnessed to them, they would not convert. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why he thought they would. If they would not listen to the Apostle Paul 1500 years before, who was one of them, why in the world would they listen to this rebel who had been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. Undoubtedly, the Reformed Church is Calvinist. There are many similarities between Calvinism and Lutheranism, the most prevalent being that they starkly disagree with the Catholic Church, but there are also some major differences. According to wikipedia, the Calvinists did not initially reach very far into Germany. Thus, it would be interesting to find out how and why that part of Germany was "Reformed" and how widespread Calvinism was at that particular time period (400 or so years after its inception).
I can find no reference currently for a Reformed Church in Germany, although there are numerous listings for most other European Countries. I also cannot find any link between the Lutheran and the Reformed Church other than they both happen to be Protestant Denominations and the theologies which founded them having surfaced around the same time period (early 16th century).
Suffice it to say, Hans Castorp's religion had its roots in Calvinism and not Lutheranism. The name "Reformed Church" comes from a movement around Luther's time, but an altogether separate movement from that which "the Great Reformer" began. This is where I was initially confused, and I am sorry if I have started us off on some rabbit trails.
Kathy wrote @105 "...HC's family is identified as "Reformed." Is this being used here as a more "generic" term, as in "reformed Lutheran"? .."Good question! Yesterday I would have thought yes (it is what I meant with "the reformed Landeskirche"). In my language (Dutch) the word 'reformed' can be used in a generic sense for any 'product' of the Protestant Reformation. Merriam-Webster gives the same possibility: "Reformed=protestant; specifically : of or relating to the chiefly Calvinist Protestant churches formed in various continental European countries".
On the Net however, I find the English word 'reformed' only used in the second, more restricted sense. And the same seems to be true for the German word 'reformiert' (it is interesting that the Germans also use the combination 'Evangelisch-Reformiert' as opposed to 'Evangelisch-Lutherisch', but that may be a result of the modern reintegration movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangeli...).
That brings us back to the denomination of granddad Castorp: "a typical Christian gentleman, of the Reformed faith" according to Lowe-Porter. In the original: "ein hochchristlicher Herr ..., von der reformierten Gemeinde". The Reformed community. Yes, I now think that must refer to a Calvinist minority within Lutheran Hamburg.
In a literary way it also makes sense to make the old Castorp a Calvinist. The Lutheran Church with its bishops is 'higher' (in the Anglican meaning), while the Calvinists would lay more stress on personal responsibility. It makes the old man an even more forbidding figure.
PS: the Dutch Calvinists held their Synod in Emden because they could not do so safely at home, Emden was (and is) a friendly town just over the border.
Jonathan wrote: "I was surprised that no one brought up Mann's discussion of whether or not Hans Castorp was mediocre. So far, that dissertation was the hardest part of the book to follow. I had to read it several times, yet I still don't think I got the entire gist. Perhaps, those with the newer translation can shed some light on what Mann was trying to say about Hans Castorp and mediocrity...."Below are passages from the two translations where mediocre is used. For appearance/length of the post, they are enclosed in < spoilers >.
Paragraphs regarding mediocre from Lowe-Porter:
(view spoiler)
Corresponding sections from Woods:
(view spoiler)
These paragraphs have been preceded by others that lay out the aristocratic habits of Hans Castorp insofar as matters such as clothing and grooming, the comfort with a metropolitan harbor, and the enjoyment of good food and drink ("His nose took in the fumes of the harbor...", "he clung to the cruder pleasures of life..." -- a kind of bourgeois virile masculinity affirmed?).
Bold was added.
(I haven't proofed the Woods passage carefully this morning. Those who have the Woods translation, please send me a message with any incorrect pieces you may note and I shall correct.
It has been interesting to re-visit this passage -- Mann seems to have been trying to make careful distinctions between the individual and his environs while simultaneously highlighting the impact of those environs on the individual. As someone has said elsewhere in this discussion, an individual person or even institution can not adequately represent a nation. Mann, instead, seems to be saying here that there can be some aspirational ambiance -- or lack thereof -- about the larger entity that may impact individuals. )
Jonathan -- I hope this can provide the comparison you were seeking.
Wendel wrote: "Yes, I now think that must refer to a Calvinist minority within Lutheran Hamburg. In a literary way it also makes sense to make the old Castorp a Calvinist. The Lutheran Church with its bishops is 'higher' (in the Anglican meaning), while the Calvinists would lay more stress on personal responsibility. It makes the old man an even more forbidding figure.
"
OK, so this is actually an important distinction, and what I was initially getting at, though I didn't have the perspective of the Reformed Protestants as a minority population. But it seems clear that Mann very consciously made that decision (rather than the default: HC is from Hamburg, therefore he is Lutheran). I can think of a couple of other ways to read it in addition to what you've mentioned above, Wendel. One is that we've been talking about how rulebound HC seems to be, how much he seems to want to fit in, even to the extent that he behaves more like a patient than a visitor at the sanatorium before he is diagnosed ill himself. This is interesting because he apparently comes from a family that *didn't* adhere to the majority religious group. Had his parents and grandparents survived to raise him, perhaps he would have been more of an outlier himself. Or, alternatively, perhaps he is working even harder than everyone else to appear to belong *because* he comes from a Reformed (Calvinist) family as opposed to the more common religious denomination. We might see him as the outsider who has to try extra-hard to "fit in."
You may be right, Kathy, but I think I would need to know more -- about Hamburg, about Calvin in Germany, about the Castorp family, ... before I assume the dynamics you pose. My saying such is from tiny bits and pieces from here and there that I have encountered over a lifetime of having a maternal Lutheran family. being myself a fairly active member of a Calvinist denomination, and being a little bit aware, from reading, of the historic assumption of religious rights by feudal princes in Germany. But I don't know enough to put those bits together in order to either refute or defend generalities or Mann's possible intentions. Although not directly related to Hans Castorp, it is perhaps useful to recall:
"Jan Hus ... c. 1369 – 6 July 1415), often referred to in English as John Hus or John Huss, was a Czech priest, philosopher, reformer, and master at Charles University in Prague. After John Wycliffe, the theorist of ecclesiastical Reformation, Hus is considered the first Church reformer, as he lived before Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli.
"He was burned at the stake for heresy against the doctrines of the Catholic Church, including those on ecclesiology, the Eucharist, and other theological topics. Hus was a key predecessor to the Protestant movement of the sixteenth century, and his teachings had a strong influence on the states of Europe, most immediately in the approval of a reformist Bohemian religious denomination, and, more than a century later, on Martin Luther himself." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Hus
"Martin Luther (German: ... 10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German monk, former Catholic priest, professor of theology and seminal figure of a reform movement in sixteenth century Christianity, subsequently known as the Protestant Reformation. He strongly disputed the claim that freedom from God's punishment for sin could be purchased with money...."
"...On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albert of Mainz, protesting the sale of indulgences. He enclosed in his letter a copy of his 'Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences,' which came to be known as 'The Ninety-Five Theses.'"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_L...
It is a question of interest as to why Mann gave Hans the religion he did -- one can be fairly certain it was deliberate. But my first guess would be that it had more to do with Calvinism versus Lutheranism than with minority religious position within Hamburg. I just can't/haven't hypothesized the what or why at this point -- perhaps because I don't like the possibilities that come most readily to mind. Between Calvin's articulation of the so-called elect and strict rule-ridden piety, it strikes me that there are several possibilities that could fit Mann's literary objectives that Lutheranism might less easily.
Perhaps Mann was a Calvinist himself (Reformed). This would not be the only similarity between himself and his hero. Did not Mann also go to the Sanatorium to be with a relative (his wife)? This is a good discussion. Thanks everyone for all the research and input. I think we have reached a solid understanding of the dynamics of HC's religious background.
I don't have a clear understanding of the categories, but here is a table of statistics on religion in Germany in 1890: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fil... Also of possible interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion...
Tidbit on Hamburg: "In 1529, the city embraced Lutheranism, and Hamburg subsequently received Reformed refugees from the Netherlands and France and, in the 17th century, Sephardi Jews from Portugal." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg
Your table shows 31 million Lutherans, 17 million Catholics and less than 1 milllion others in 1890. Calvinists may have been the largest group among the 145.000 'other Christians'. A small group. What strikes me is the map of the actual situation, showing that Communism practically wiped out traditional religion in Eastern Germany. Anyway, while nothing in this book is accidental, I would not make too much of a religious background that is mentioned only in passing. There is nothing to indicate that the Castorp family suffered consequences from their minority status and the reaction from Hans and Joachim on Settembrini's irreverences is quite relaxed.
I see also no indication that the subject was of special interest to Mann (not as in Dutch culture, where the traumatised Calvinist has been a major literary theme).
Everyman wrote: "I haven't figured out what the Baptismal Bowl is all about. It seems to link the generations of HC's family, and gives an excuse for his great-uncle to review some history, but many other things c..."I'm assuming that each chapter heading addresses a point being made in that chapter, so it would seem that the Baptismal Bowl is important. I'm wondering if it is a way of telling the reader that HC is steeped in tradition and family history; he may in fact derive some feeling of importance from that history. Is the fact that the bowl is a religious object an indication of HC's personal beliefs, which probably reflect that of his grandfather? Since he's going to be around death if he stays at the sanatorium for very long, his own beliefs may either be challenged or a source of comfort to him.
In the second part of the chapter heading "Grandfather in His Two Forms", I finally settled on the narrator telling us that his two forms were alive and dead, although I also wondered about patriarch, senator, and central figure of the family. Although maybe the narrator is saying that Hans Lorenz Castorp is revered by his grandson, but not so much by the community: "From the viewpoint of the outside world, time had made Hans Lorenz Castorp's character and convictions obsolete long before his passing." For instance, he's not in favor of expanding the harbor.
But why are grandfather's character and convictions important to the story? Time will tell, I guess.
There's another aspect of this chapter that leaves me completely confused and it is what seems to be an indication that HC is conflicted or confused: "a kind of fluctuating permanence", "an abiding, mutable heirloom", and then there's the reference to his grandfather laying in state "one could not be sure whether triumphant or vanquished.
Adelle pointed out in her post about the importance of words in a short story. I'm thinking words are important in any book, and this one is so rich in innuendoes that I wonder if different people in the group come to different conclusions at it's end. I can't wait to find out!
Elizabeth wrote: "I wonder if different people in the group come to different conclusions at it's end. I can't wait to find out..."
At the end, the various posters ARE debating ...
At the end, the various posters ARE debating ...
It was easy to get caught up in whatever chapter I happened to be reading, but I read in some study that it the first 20 pages that hold the key to HC....and the rest of the book is simply commentary on those twenty pages.
Mmm. Still, I do think the beginning was very important.
"a kind of fluctuating permanence", "an abiding, mutable heirloom"
Yes.
Mmm. Still, I do think the beginning was very important.
"a kind of fluctuating permanence", "an abiding, mutable heirloom"
Yes.
Adelle wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I wonder if different people in the group come to different conclusions at it's end. I can't wait to find out..."At the end, the various posters ARE debating ..."
That's wonderful. I wish I could participate, but I'm not far enough along. I'm trying a different reading approach with this book: making notes and purposefully thinking about what I've read rather than racing to the end to find out what happens. I'm hoping this will help me retain more details about the books I've read. I'd love to know how others retain so much of a book well after it has been read.
Elizabeth wrote: "That's wonderful. I wish I could participate, but I'm not far enough along. I'm trying a different reading approach with this book: making notes and purposefully thinking about what I've read rather than racing to the end to find out what happens. "..."This is an excellent approach, because Mann repeats certain details over and over again, using repetition the way a composer uses motif in a piece of music. Making notes is a great way to stay oriented toward these details.
To finish my thinking about Chapter 2: It seems to me that inheriting 400,000 franks in about 1912 would be an enormous sum of money yet HC's uncle tells him that he will need 5x that amount to live as he is currently doing. So, HC is going to be facing a major life style change in that he'll have to develop a lucrative career if he wants to live as his is now doing. I especially liked the sentence that says it all in terms of his life style: "Only reluctantly would he have eaten butter served in pats rather than in fluted little balls."Apparently HC began drinking at an early age: "He was probably a little anemic from the start, or so Dr. Heidenkind said, prescribing him a nice daily glass of porter"....which "pleasantly assisted him in his proclivity to 'doze'." Does this young man have a drinking problem? I wonder if the flushing of the face that he is experiencing at the sanatorium could have anything to do with the altitude and the drinking?!
So far, I can see signs of a life that could end up in a shamble, but I was amazed to read the narrator's low opinion of "HC's Moral State": "As is apparent, we are attempting to include anything that can be said in Han Castorp's favor, and we* offer our judgments without exaggeration, intending to make him no better or worse than he was. Hans Castorp was neither a genius nor an idiot, and if we refrain from applying the word 'mediocre' to him, we do so for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with his intelligence and little or nothing to do with his prosaic personality, but rather out of deference to his fate, to which we are inclined to attribute a more general significance."
*What does the narrator mean by "we"? Apparently he's speaking not only for himself, but for others. Who are they?
I'm beginning to wonder if the author has developed the character of HC as a representation of the seeds of change that will come after WWI? I'm also wondering if this novel would have been completely different had it been written in 1912, my assumed time of the events in the novel. It is the narrator's comment "A human being lives out not only his personal life as an individual, but also, consciously or subconsciously, the lives of his epoch and contemporaries". Work, for instance, "did not agree with him (HC)", it "was simply something that stood in the way of the unencumbered enjoyment of a Maria Mancini." Also, "He was not attracted to military service himself. Something deep within him resisted the idea, and HE KNEW HOW TO AVOID IT." (Caps are mine)
I'm thinking I don't really like HC!
By historic reasons it is distributed regionally."
Fascinating. So it seems that for Germans at the time religion was more a matter of social environment that theological belief.