Listener Q&A

[John, Moderator]

I liked Bray's narration in the one book I've heard.

[Corey]

As a narrator, character voices are an interesting challenge. What I personally strive for is to narrate, not act. I try to keep characters distinct while at the same time not going overboard.

Subtlety is key; while some folks are probably capable of believably doing a huge range of voices, nobody who's ever heard my voice will believe that I'm a 17-year old girl, or a 10-year old boy, or a 40-something Spanish woman with supernatural powers. I try to evoke the right sound in a subtle fashion, because to overdo it takes the listener out of the narrative. It's about suggesting the character, not being the character, if that makes sense. I'm not coming up with the right words at the moment.

I guess in my mind I work to serve the narrative, and that means trying to evoke the characters and sound and not be in the way, because the book really is between the author and the listener, not between me and the listener.

You won't hear a narrator scream or whisper for real- the former would distort and the latter would not come through clearly- but if they do it right, you won't notice.

As an interesting aside, I work in other fields of VO, and one I've been trying to work my way into is videogames, which IS acting, in pretty much every sense of the word. My coach and I have a great relationship, but she has to work REALLY hard to beat what she calls the "audiobook yell" out of me. It's a hard habit to break once you've learned it. :)

[Jeanie]

I think you conveyed your meaning just fine. It's fascinating to hear about the other aspects of VO as well.
"...beat the audiobook yell out of me" LOL!

[Alana]

Well said, Corey. As a listener, that is what I prefer; someone who can narrate and make the "voices" distinct enough so that you can tell when different characters are speaking, esp a man versus a woman, but not actually ACTING the voices...that actually can sound silly and be very distracting. I still want to feel like I'm listening to a BOOK, not a radio program. You're not required to sound like a 10-year-old boy, etc. Just as long as the voice is a little higher pitched and perhaps more whiney than the 27 year old female, for example.

[Corey]

I just got back from APAC (the Audio Publisher's Association Conference) in New York, and had some very interesting discussions there in panels and in the hallways with other narrators.

It seems that my perspective described above as trying not to be in the way of the author is either not really well-stated or is at odds with what other narrators do in terms of their performance. I definitely got some great insights that I will be able to bring to bear right away, particularly with fiction pieces (first-person fiction especially).

All that made me think of something, however. So here's my question for listeners:

What is your biggest trigger for being "yanked out" of the narrative? What really just grinds your gears when listening to an audiobook that you wish narrators would NOT do?

[John, Moderator]

Corey,

The biggest deal with that issue would be footnotes, which are usually handled well. Otherwise, perhaps, scene shifts that aren't handled smoothly enough ("Huh? What's this all about?") cause the most disruption. I don't know if it's a technical issue beyond narrator control, but extra-long pauses between chapters are highly annoying.

[Corey]

Hi John,

Thanks for the response. :) Having never done a book with footnotes, how do you prefer they be handled? I do enough history projects that at some point there will be one with extensive footnotes. I'm curious what the best practice is from a listener perspective.

Edit: And pauses between chapters are typically outside of narrator control if they're working with a publisher. For ACX and self-produced work, Audible has standards that set a time for the lead in and lead out. I think the end of chapter timing is 3.5 seconds and the lead in is half a second. I'd have to dig up the specs to be sure.

[Scott S.]

My biggest problem is probably also outside of narrator control. I have several audiobooks in which the book title and author name are announced before each chapter, Librivox style. I realize Librivox has to do this, but when it is a book I've paid for I'm always screaming "I know what book I'm listening to!".

[John, Moderator]

I believe it's John Lee who announces: "FOOTNOTE (stated clearly and definitively) - yadda, yadda, yadda." I don't believe he announces a return to the text, but that isn't a problem from the inflection and context.

[John, Moderator]

J -- I've never heard of that with each chapter, are those older books from cassette (or disc)?

[Lee]

Corey, it is 3.5 seconds for ACX between chapters and .5 seconds at the beginning of each chapter. However, you also have to leave 2.5 seconds between stating 'Chapter 1' or whatever the name of the chapter may be and the beginning of the actual text. That can add up to a lot of silence when the chapters are very short.

[Corey]

J. - I've never seen a book where that was done with each chapter (outside of the ones I did for Librivox, of course).

John: Thanks, that's about what I figured. How does he handle the short-form citation notations we often see in books? That's something I've been curious about.

Claire: Aye, that's correct. And I can see how that would get irritating! I know ACX watches the conversations here, so maybe they can take that up as something to adjust for shorter chapters or books with lots of short ones. The books I've done very rarely have a chapter shorter than 20 minutes, so it's not been an issue for me (so far!). :)

[John, Moderator]

Corey - I don't know what you mean by "short form citation" - sorry!

[Scott S.]

John wrote: "J -- I've never heard of that with each chapter, are those older books from cassette (or disc)?"

I'm having trouble recalling which books in particular, some of them may have been a little older. The only reason it came to mind is because I noticed when queuing my next few books that one of them does it.

[Corey]

John- it probably comes from my years in software. Most of the footnotes in technical papers are incomprehensible to read, let alone speak! :)

[Scott S.]

J. wrote: "John wrote: "J -- I've never heard of that with each chapter, are those older books from cassette (or disc)?"

I'm having trouble recalling which books in particular, some of them may have been a l..."

Actually, now that I think about it, some of the ones I'm thinking of may have originally been podcast audiobooks. In which case I guess an introduction would be necessary.

[Lee]

Corey: I had one that had a number of 1-2 page chapters. ACX does have rules about combining chapters but this book didn't quite meet them. You can't combine a chapter that's at least 5 minutes with shorter ones, etc. I tried to figure out a way looking at their rules but ended up having to record each one as a separate chapter.

[John, Moderator]

Lisa Lutz uses footnotes a lot in her Spellman Files "mystery" series, although she's cut way down as folks complain in reviews they find it distracting (in print). Audio narrator uses a tone shift.
Jen Lancaster uses them A LOT in her snarky memoir books, where in print they're not too bad, but as audios they'd make far-too-frequent interruptions.

[Sandra]

Personally, I don't mind long pauses, as it helps me follow better. I've had a few books recently that have no pause at all between chapters or changes in scene or changes in POV, which makes listening confusing. I think it's an editing problem, though. So if Audible or other publishers are listening, try not to be sloppy with editing. I know the last Bernie and Chet mystery I listened to had actual cut offs at the end of sentences. Annoying.

Special effects take me out of the story in an audiobook. I don't like musical additions as it seems so phony in an audiobook. Other things are swallowing, slurping, excessive breathing, etc. James Marsters does a lot of that in the first few Dresden books, although I understand it gets better in later books in the series.

[Ann]

I have a few books that have "end of disc 1" etc on them, too. I don't remember the titles, but I have been listening to alot of series lately that start years ago, so I assume they are the older books that have been "digitized".

[Jeanie]

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Personally, I don't mind long pauses, as it helps me follow better. I've had a few books recently that have no pause at all between chapters or changes in scene or changes in POV, which makes list..."

Agree with the problems posed by swallows, mouth noises, and badly done sound effects or music--well done ones are extraordinarily rare, and out of the control of the narrator.

What else can a narrator do that takes me out of the story?
Inconsistent character voices--I thought that was Sam and now it's Dave?
Insufficient character differentiation, especially if there are few textual cues (see above discussion) and the conversation goes on for a while.
Female or children character voices pitched too high--like nails on a chalk board.
Overly dramatic reading--I love William shatner but narrators shouldn't use him as a role model.
Mispronounced words! This includes varying the pronunciation of a word or character name within the text.
Placing the stress in the wrong part of the sentence. He was DEAD!--oh boy, a murder mystery. He WAS dead!--uh-oh, xombies?

PS, Corey: I listened to your narration of Heart of a Dragon and, while I wouldn't call it in any way over-acted, I found you put just the right amount of drama into the reading. Perhaps you misunderstood what the other narrators intended versus how you expressed what you do in your own narration. If there had been any more "acting" it would have felt wrong for an audiobook. In case I didn't put it well, I liked your reading, nice voice and nice style.

[Alana]

I agree with quite a few of Jeanie's. Way too high pitched voices drive me crazy, esp when they come out of nowhere. Absolutely mispronounced words drive me up a wall. There is nothing more distracting. The only time that is acceptable is when someone with a British accent says a word in "British" vs. an American saying it in "American." Then it's not a mispronunciation, just a different accent. Names incorrectly pronounced as well. And yes, the emphasis in the wrong part of the sentence (when it's obvious where the stress should be... sometimes it's more ambiguous and I leave that up to the interpretation of the narrator).

I think this is mostly in older recordings, but when there is a musical interlude it feels like someone dashed a bucket of cold water across my face. I didn't mind this in Coraline, because it just somehow played into the silliness and creepiness of the story, but in other books it's completely confusing to my brain.

As far as footnotes, it depends on the type of book. In something like Anna Karenina, for example, I don't want the notes read at all. There's usually a million of them, just showing where a quote came from, etc. But for something like Unbroken: A World War II Story of Survival, Resilience, and Redemption which I listened to earlier this year, where there might have been one note every few pages, as long as it's just something simple like "Note: later that year, the ruling would be overturned as a result of....". It shouldn't be a shouted "FOOTNOTE," but rather a simple aside, as long as it's done at the same pitch and tone of the rest of the narration.

[Xe]

Corey wrote: "What is your biggest trigger for being "yanked out" of the narrative? What really just grinds your gears when listening to an audiobook that you wish narrators would NOT do?
"

Oh absolutely EXCELLENT question, Corey! Enjoying reading through all the answers...

[Vic]

Totally agree with Jeanie on many of her points! Also, if there is a change in narrator in a series... PLEASE listen to some of previous book to make the name pronunciations consistent! Most of the time the listeners are frustrated with the switch but to add a change in how characters/places are pronounced as well is very jarring.

I've ranted many times in use of music in audiobooks. Penguin is HORRIBLE with putting music in dramatic parts of a book and its volume drowns out the actual narration of the book. (Early books in Anita Blake series by Laurell K. Hamilton) They've also added music as the book is "fading" out on the last few sentences and I've had to STRAIN to actually HEAR the narration (Written in Red by Anne Bishop) I understand this isn't really in the narrator's control.

Too little space between scene/POV within the same chapter definitely pulls me out of the book. It leaves me struggling to figure out what just happened/who's talking etc. (Lord of the Fading Lands by C. L. Wilson is an audio that stands out that I had a lot of issues with this)

[[deleted user]]

100% in agreement with your statement about music, Vic. For example, A Grown-Up Kind of Pretty (as brilliantly narrated by its author, Joshilyn Jackson) is dramatic enough not to need the "here comes a big scene" foreshadowing present in the audiobook.

[Xe]

I'm going to return to the accent question for a moment, but with a different twist.

In some books, characters are presented with either inconsistent accents (they usually sound fairly neutral but slip into their natural accent under duress, for example), or they are "incognito" and using a fake accent to disguise their real accent and they slip back and forth throughout the book.

[side note: imagine how surreal that can get for narrators: we are using a fake accent for a character who is then also using a fake accent!]

As a reader, I find this works perfectly fine in print. But once you get to audio, it gets me thinking...when this has come up in audiobooks you've listened to, has it been a bit confusing when the characters accent varies?

[John, Moderator]

I ran across this one not that long ago, Xe -- where a P. I. was pretending to be a Russian in some scenes. Having him speak in his normal American voice all the time would've meant that he was such a crummy detective that he couldn't do a Russian accent at all, hoping no one would notice!

[Xe]

John wrote: "I ran across this one not that long ago, Xe -- where a P. I. was pretending to be a Russian in some scenes. Having him speak in his normal American voice all the time would've meant that he was suc..."

LOL! Understood. Recently worked on a book in which the main character is Irish but also a British lord, but accent gets more pronounced at certain times. We opted to give him slight lilt all the time and intensify it when called out in the text, so as not to confuse listeners. But it was the heroine that was a true challenge. She is upper class but pretending to be a middle class Northerner (think Yorkshire). However, her accent slips occasionally, and she finds out about halfway through the book that others only hear the Northern accent occasionally.

So as a narrator, that begged the question: what DID her accent sound like? How consistent was it? And when she slips into her natural upper class British accent, how jarring would it be for listeners?

Trying to think of books in which I've encountered this as a listener. Hmm.

[John, Moderator]

In that case, were I a narrator, I'd have to make notes of more ... sophisticated words that pop up while she's "in character" (to poshify) as well as perhaps a point where she's taken by surprise to emphasize that she's not consistently posh.

[Xe]

John wrote: "In that case, were I a narrator, I'd have to make notes of more ... sophisticated words that pop up while she's "in character" (to poshify) as well as perhaps a point where she's taken by surprise ..."

Tricky, isn't it? Your suggestion is a great one, John.

[[deleted user]]

I find even the best narrators don't always maintain character voices consistently. Sometimes I find myself thinking, "Oh, so-and-so must have been tired when this part was recorded". Same thing with accents. It doesn't bother me, as long as the story is compelling.

[Xe]

Jennifer (E-reads, E-listens, E-breathes) wrote: "I find even the best narrators don't always maintain character voices consistently. Sometimes I find myself thinking, "Oh, so-and-so must have been tired when this part was recorded". Same thing ..."

Good to hear, Jennifer! That's definitely a challenge for narrators when doing accents. No matter how good we are, there are going to be times when we slip (same with character voices)...and vocal fatigue does come into play with character voices at times.

[[deleted user]]

Add tone of voice, and character emotions "in the moment", and character personality / psychology...and it's an incredible challenge, so I salute you.

[Corey]

I like the word "poshify".

I have had similar challenges. The one that leaps to mind most is a short story I did. It was part of a larger collection of Western-themed horror stories- think Lovecraft meets spaghetti western- and almost all of them were third person or for the first person ones, had a male protagonist. No trouble.

But one of them, called One-Eyed Jack, was a first person story, told from the POV of a woman who was recalling when she was a prostitute in a saloon, recounting the story of the man she almost loved and the very bad things that happened one night when he played a game of cards with some drifters in the saloon.

So here I am, a deep-voiced male, trying to do a 30s to middle-aged woman, telling a story of when she was in her 20s, voicing at least four male characters as though SHE were trying to imitate THEIR voices... what a challenge that was.

What I ended up doing was not trying to portray the character exactly, but just "evoke" that sound. In the end, I think it was one of my best. I use a sample of it to show off my range sometimes. :)

[John, Moderator]

You're truly a perfectionist, Corey! I might've just voiced the four men "as yourself" instead.

I know from my experience with my mom, who's been away from Massachusetts (as a full time resident) for 50 years, the accent comes back fairly quickly when she's either visiting, or even talking with other natives. So, if you do get a character going back to her hometown after a long absence, it'd be realistic to have her slipping into at least a mild accent.

[Xe]

Another bit of pondering...

As listeners, do you expect different levels of differentiation from different genres? For example, are you expecting more character differentiation in, say, a mystery or romance, than you are when you listen to literary fiction?

[Xe]

And Corey, my hat off to you! That beats any challenge I've come up against (thank goodness!).

[[deleted user]]

I need some differentiation in all genres. I'm deaf in my right ear, and I need to be able to tell who's speaking (or thinking).

[Xe]

Jennifer (E-reads, E-listens, E-breathes) wrote: "I need some differentiation in all genres. I'm deaf in my right ear, and I need to be able to tell who's speaking (or thinking)."

I imagine that that would make it doubly appreciated, Jennifer.

[Corey]

Xe wrote: "And Corey, my hat off to you! That beats any challenge I've come up against (thank goodness!)."

That's very kind of you to say, Xe. Having heard your work I would say you do yourself a disservice. :)

If anyone wants to hear the clip in question, here's a link to it.

But back on topic...

Differentiation is something I've worked hard on, but I think I still fall short at times. What would you say makes a voice distinct in your mind (ears)? Is pitch more important than inflection, or vice versa, or is it (as I surmise) a combination of those factors?

The reason I ask is because, like most narrators (I imagine), I have a small "stable" of voices I pull out when I need to- the standards. I adjust those as needed for when there are more characters, but sometimes I've cheated a bit by giving two characters that don't share any screen time a very similar voice.

[[deleted user]]

That clip is a thing of beauty, Corey. I describe the best narration as "soothing", and yours is in that category - like butter.

I'm not an audiobook veteran like many here, but I'm impressed.

[Jeanie]

As for character differentiation by genre, I appreciate well-drawn character voices across all forms of fiction. Where I discriminate is in children's books or some types of fantasy where voices can be more exaggerated and even cartoonish, so to speak. The Harry Potter books allowed for broad character voices and even Lord of the Rings had room for exaggerations in characters like Gollum or the orcs. Otherwise, I want generally realistic sounding characters. Using accents or even class distinctions do help extend the number of voices a narrator can produce and still make them different enough to identify. And, corey, I find it's fine if two characters who don't share screen time and who aren't main characters share the same voice, as long as it's one of those generic male voices and not very distinctive--and they aren't important characters despite limited time on the page.

As for accents, a recent book by Molly Harper, A Witches' Hanbook of Kisses and Curses, was first person POV whose narrator was from Boston but raised in Ireland from age fourteen and so retained some Boston and some Irish lilt in her voice. Amanda Roncone did a phenominal job with this, including the direction that the lilt came and went, but it was an unfortunatley unpleasant accent to have to listen to for an entire book. Another kudo to Amanda was the main male character voice. He said he was from Tennessee, but I thought from the start it sounded like a diluted Cajun accent. Sure enough, his family was originally from Louisiana and had remained isolated enough to retain more than a little of this sound. This wasn't a fault of the narrator, but her adhering to what she knew about the character's true accent did take me out of the story until the reason for the south Louisiana accent was explained. I commented elsewhere that Molly Harper's choice of giving the narrating character such a weird accent made me wonder if she was considering the audiobook when she chose it. Perhaps she knew Amanda could handle it, but I doubt if she considered how unpleasant it would be for the listener to have to hear it for an entire book.

[Vic]

Differentiation is as Corey said, a combination of all those things for me. I love being able to distinguish who is talking/thinking in a scene.

I just listened to a nice audio discussion with Xe Sands/Karen White/Kaleo Griffith/Angela Dawe at AudioGals where distinguishing voices was also discussed.

John Sharian did a really nice job differentiating between many characters (specifically a father/2 brothers) in Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series. It's fantasy so I agree that I can accept more exaggeration in that genre than any of the others. But 1 of the sons and the father have ALMOST an identical voice but there is just a little bit of a difference, which is enough for me. Also, pacing/pausing of the dialog is another distinction.

[[deleted user]]

I will be hearing Angela Dawe soon, as I have Still Missing by Chevy Stevens next in my mental line-up.

[Penelope]

Great discussion! Does anyone know of a book with a good male Russian accent reader? I liked the Russian accent in The Goldfinch but the story made me sad. Any others?

[John, Moderator]

Consider The Unchangeable Spots of Leopards.

[Penelope]

John wrote: "Consider The Unchangeable Spots of Leopards."

Thanks John! I look forward to hearing it.