Clockwork Princess
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CLOCKWORK PRINCESS!!! What did you think????
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Jessica wrote: "Then you aren't getting Cassandra Clare's point. You should read what she said about this. It might change your mind
Oh I have read her posts. I know her point and what she was going for, equal love between three people. I don't however think she executed what she was going for.
She can say whatever she wants and say what she wanted to show in the series. That doesn't mean she did it well, or convincingly. Not all authors succeed in what they are trying to achieve.
(I am a fan of Cassie, don't get me wrong. I just think the triangle, presented the way it was as equal love, was not executed to that degree.)
Rose wrote: "Oh I have read her posts. I know her point and what she was going for, equal love between three people. I don't however think she executed what she was going for. "I think that explanation was a nice try.
It feels like there are some invisible pages in CA and CP that explain the romantic feeling Tessa has always had for Jem. Since they are invisible, we need to consult them with the writer, since it is only the writer who can read those pages.
Nurlely is right. The love wasn't equal imo, anyway. Clearly each boy loved Tessa more than she 1. loved either of them and 2. the boys loved each other. No way Jem and Will loved each other as much as they loved Tessa, so the point is moot.So. Not equal.
What a messed up equal love theory. The Epilogue surely ruins the awesomeness of CP2... :(
That epilogue is one of those things that sticks with me to annoy me at random times. I'll be totally happy, then that idiocy will pop into my head, and the way everyone loves Tessa and her team of lovers. My poor Will, wasted on Tessa.
Rose wrote: "Jessica wrote: "Then you aren't getting Cassandra Clare's point. You should read what she said about this. It might change your mind
Oh I have read her posts. I know her point and what she was g..."
Agree completely. That was not equal love in any way. Only equal thing was the amount of love Will and Jem had for Tessa. Shame she couldn't return the favor.
Krista (One Love) (Critical) wrote: "Agree completely. That was not equal love in any way. Only equal thing was the amount of love Will and Jem had for Tessa. Shame she couldn't return the favor. "True! The funny thing from the whole thing is that some readers are upset with our comments and consider us as readers who are not happy with Jem being happy.
Didn't we read the same books as they did?
Did they actually read the words in the CA and CP saying that Tessa loved Jem in a romantic way as she loved Will?
i am assuming you guys are referring to this post: http://cassandraclare.tumblr.com/post... (about love and love triangles).we've been through this a lot already and i know most people aren't going to change their opinions no matter what i or anyone else says, but i think it's important to consider these opposing ideas and explanations. they can help fill holes in our understanding of the book because we all see things differently based on our individual backgrounds and experiences (as well as our personal ideal of the perfect boy/love interest).
i know people are generally happy that everyone ended up happy, but not necessarily with the way that happened. still, i like the message that cassandra clare is sending, which is funny because as realistic as she tries to paint love, the situation that tessa-jem-will are in isn't exactly an everyday kind of thing. nonetheless, i've never believed in there being only "one true love," which i appreciate clare for acknowledging both in the ending of CP2 and in her comments. of course it does happen in real life, but oftentimes, people move on. that doesn't mean they've forgotten their previous love. they've just found someone new to give it to and life goes on. the same can go for loving two people at once. that's what happens in love triangles and, typically, when one love interest is finally chosen, i don't believe that the other is forgotten. the love was there after all, equal or not. it's impossible to measure love anyway and it would be degrading to do so.
For me... it is like presenting a C, and then when answering the question of why it is a C, the answer I get is, a C is the third letter after an A and B. That is a true answer, but it doesn't answer the question.The Epilogue tells us that Tessa has never stopped loving Jem. Both question and answer were done in a romantic gesture, for it was raised in comparison to loving Will. That part is a contradiction with what CA and CP have told us. In both books, we were served with so many details about Tessa's love for Will, Tessa's unhappiness due to Will's pain, Tessa-Will all the way to the end of CP. On the other hand, Tessa's love for Jem was never written that way. We were even served with details of Tessa's misery, after accepting Jem's proposal.
One true love is so romantic, but in real life, love is not always that romantic. Some people can love more than 1 person in their life. That is not the problem we are trying to deal with what CP2 is offering us. The problem is not that Tessa moves on after Will's death, but to what she has dramatically delivered. The 'never stopped loving you' has probably made her love to Will less awesome, but the worst thing is... there was no equal romantic love that we can read in CA and CP... literally speaking.
^Exactly. The problem lies with the results not measuring up to what the love triangle claims to be. If you are selling an equal love triangle, I expect to read about one. Honestly, I feel like both boys get a little shafted at different parts of the series.I loved CA and Tessa so much in that book. But I feel like CP and CP2 just went downhill. I never say this, but the attempt at the triangle ruined it for me. And I don't even hate love triangles.
Well that was my opinion and everyone has a right to their own opinions of a book. You can get what you want out of the story and I got what I got out of it. Like the person above me said, it's good to get other viewpoints. And yes. I read the same words as you. In fact I've already reread and analysed it thank you very much.
Rose wrote: "...I loved CA and Tessa so much in that book. But I feel like CP and CP2 just went downhill. I never say this, but the attempt at the triangle ruined it for me. And I don't even hate love triangles. "I shared your feeling. CA is absolutely awesome and Tessa is a strong young lady who knows what she wants and will not hesitate in doing the right thing.
In CP, Tessa started to annoy me. Her bed scene with Jem was supposed to be the start of a love triangle, but then Tessa regretted it. When Tessa said Yes to Jem due to her guilt, and then was so miserable after that... she has changed from a carefree strong independent young lady into someone who can not say No even though that is the right thing to do.
Tessa didn't regret kissing Jem, per se. She regretted being so unlady-like. She was worried that Jem would think less of her for throwing caution in the wind like an unruly girl. And she was miserable because she was hurting Will because she obviously still had feelings for him too. But she didn't HAVE to say yes to Jem...she did though and a part of her must have wanted to or else she's really self-loathing.I do agree that the books are largely more about love and the love triangle than anything else. CP was so low in plot, nothing happened. CP2 was only a bit better in that department and honestly, the clockwork army scared me more than Mortmain himself.
OMG!!!! I just finished reading it and i am literally at a loss for words. I have never ever ever in all my years of reading read anything like that. I cant say the book ended happily ever after but I thing it just ended *right* as in it wouldnt have worked had it ended any other way. And I have to say thanks to Cassandra Clare for the way she ended it. But i still feel so sad and depressed because...well just because it made so much sense but I hate how Will had to die and everyone had to go through so much pain. I dont even know what im writing right now but anyways... thanks for reading my undecipherable feelings.
Shirley wrote: "...CP was so low in plot, nothing happened. CP2 was only a bit better in that department and honestly, the clockwork army scared me more than Mortmain himself. "CA is by far the best of 3. And yes... Why is Mortmain not as scary as those clockwork army? I was waiting for the Sebastian-evilish-level of Mortmain and then....
Dang!
Mortmain was like portrayed as some silly power-hungry mundane throughout the series in my opinion. I was terrified of the Clockwork Army since they were animated by demon souls...
Faria wrote: "Mortmain was like portrayed as some silly power-hungry mundane throughout the series in my opinion. I was terrified of the Clockwork Army since they were animated by demon souls..."Aren't the dark sisters afraid of him? How can a silly power-hungry mundane 'over-powered' scary powerful warlocks?
I don't know if anyone posted this already, but on Cassie's blog, there is a tarot card where Jem and Tessa get married. She said it might be In A future shadow hunter book. I'm a little sad, I suppose.
But good news for Will fans! In the new series she will write (probably years from now) THL; it will have Tessa and Wills children as some of the main characters, and involve Will and Tessa during their marriage of course.
They all received what they deserved. I am a very hardcore Wessa shipper, but I have always loved Jem dearly also. I think we are all forgetting that Will never even expected anybody to love him, because of his curse. All he ever wanted was the girl he loves, which he got in the end, as well as a beautiful family. The epilogue explains all the fun and exciting adventures Will had, with going on dates with Tessa, teaching his children the demon pox song, and all the other beautiful stories Cassie included in the epilogue. Will got the life he deserved, and it was indeed a happy one. Jem also deserves to be happy, and 130 years of silence, no laughter, no music, all while knowing his loved ones were living their life with each other, must have been really hard. Can you imagine how Jem must have felt when he saw Charlotte and Henry, Gideon and Sophie, Gabriel and Cecily, and especially Will and Tessa, create a family and future for themselves, while he was stuck at the Silent City? Plus his years of suffering with his disease only makes the argument stronger. I'm glad he got Tessa. And Tessa too got what she deserved, both Will and Jem. It was very beautifully played out, and I think Will would be looking down from the Heavens and whatnot with his blessings, just as Jem did toward Will and Tessa while he was a Silent Brother.
Ashley wrote: "I don't know if anyone posted this already, but on Cassie's blog, there is a tarot card where Jem and Tessa get married. She said it might be In A future shadow hunter book. I'm a little sad, I s..."
I have got over my dramatic mode, and move on to different series, although I still wish to rip the Epilogue from any Clockwork Princess I see... (not so over it obviously)
Jem and Tessa got married? I knew nothing about it. The Family tree says nothing about them having descendants. The thought of having Jem-Tessa in TDA is already a big No, since there will be no Will.
I am also more excited in anticipating TLH.
Do you like Julie Kagawa? I love her Iron fey series. Meghan is a very strong female character.
Ah, the villinization of female protagonists in books. How typical. Must this tiring "She's so annoying!" charade be thrown at every female protag. while all the male characters (despite how morally evil the are, such as, ahem, Sebastian in CoLS, since you know he (view spoiler)) are idolized as "perfect?"CP2 was more of Will and Jem's relationship, CP of Jem's and Tessa's and CA of Will and Tessa.
I personally think this trilogy has slight polyamourous themes but the ending was quite great.
I don't think Tessa betrayed anyone, since both boys knew she loved, well, both of them.
Will's love for Tessa is passionate and always burning, which is why it's more suited for the earlier stages of Tessa's life.
Jem's is steady, and is more suited for the present day Tessa since they can both relate to something they have in common, immortality.
The tragedy here is that Will "loses" his Jem and he never sees him cured. The other tragedy is that Tessa, will never get her happy ending. The wheel of life, as they describe in the book, will never stop turning for her.
Yessica wrote: "Ah, the villinization of female protagonists in books. How typical. Must this tiring "She's so annoying!" charade be thrown at every female protag. while all the male characters (despite how morall..."If the female character is annoying, she is then annoying. The feel of doing so was probably raised by the thought that more of YA readers are female hence love male characters more than female characters. Blame it to the writers.
Not all female characters are written that way. Katniss, Meghan and Katsa are them of the strong female characters, which are loved by their readers.
And surely no one will hate Hermione, even though she stayed with her very dear friend and abandoned her love when she was needed to do so. She was even more loved, for she didn't let her love blind her judgement.
The problem does not lie in the readers. Opinions are given based on the reading, and the reading is served by the writer.
The problem in CP2 does not lay in Tessa getting Jem by the end of the day, but by what she said about loving Jem-Will the same, always. CA and CP tell that she does not have similar love to the boys, literally.
Cassie is an awesome writer but not without flaws. She implied (on her tumblr) that Tessa loved the boys equally, but failed to deliver that message in CA and CP. Maybe because her pretty brain is so busy with plotting some scenes for her next book.
Her answer on the Epilogue was not a big success either. She compared her work with Disney, while she did present her story with a happy end for all.
Nurlely wrote: "Yessica wrote: "Ah, the villinization of female protagonists in books...." If the female character is annoying, she is then annoying. The feel of doing so was probably raised by the thought.... Rock on Nurley ;-) I'm totally with you.
Cassie Clare is a great writer, but like Nurley said, she isn't perfect. She creates good plots, good dialogue, interesting world-building and characters, but I think her waterloo lies in telling love stories.
I've been following Cassie Clare since her fanfiction writing days and I've always noted that as something to be desired in her writing (of course, she still compensates for it in many other ways).
The problem is, Cassie likes to "tell" what her characters feel instead of "show" it. Showing how a character falls in love as opposed to "telling" the readers who loves whom can be quite tricky, but is essential nonetheless.
In her Harry Potter fanfiction, (view spoiler)
But then in Mortal Instruments, (view spoiler)
The same thing happened for The Infernal Devices, in CA and CP, it was all about Tessa's struggle with her feelings for Will who keeps pushing her away. While she did appreciate Jem and his company, it wasn't clear, at least to me, that she was falling in love with him, then Bam! come CP2, it was all "...But I love Jem too". I get that she "loved" Jem as a friend, but when exactly did she fall in love with him? It just wasn't made clear.
Ruthie wrote: "The problem is, Cassie likes to "tell" what her characters feel instead of "show" it. Showing how a character falls in love as opposed to "telling" the readers who loves whom can be quite tricky, but is essential nonetheless. ..."Nice explanation Ruthie!
It really annoyed me, that Cassie had to explained her theory on Tumblr. She failed to provide CA and CP with convincing equal love and explained things on her pages? I hope Cassie will not end up like Stephenie Meyer with her messed up Biology lesson.
Writers do have flaws, but they move on and write better books. They should not sit still and try to justify their mistakes.
As for TMI.... As much as I love Jace and Clary, I also worry a bit about their love progress. Can't they just have healthy relationship without the need of stripping each other naked most of the time?
I'm happy that Jem was cured and didn't have to remain a Silent Brother. He suffered enough. He gave up enough. He silently loved Tessa and was always there when Will and Tessa needed him. Look how much he suffered for so many years. Did he need to suffer for eternity? He deserved to have his happily ever after with the only woman he had ever loved. He deserved to be rewarded for all the pain and sacrifice he had made. There was not any jealousy between Jem and Will. They loved each other and were each willing to die for the others' happiness. I believe Will would be happy that Tessa is not alone after his death. Because she loved Will, was she supposed to spend eternity alone? This was one of the things Magnus talked about, losing everyone you love, over and over again. It is also said several times by Will and Jem that they are like 2 halves of a whole. Maybe that is why Tessa could love them both at the same time. Just my thoughts.
The tragedy here is that Will "loses" his Jem and he never sees him cured. The other tragedy is that Tessa, will never get her happy ending. The wheel of life, as they describe in the book, will never stop turning for her. I agree with this completely. At the end of Will's life it is said that he waited for Jem to arrive before he finally closed his eyes the last time. He had a long and happy life with the woman he loved, but he still lost his parabatei
In the end I felt bad for Tessa. I could not imagine watching many of my loves pass away and watching the world you know change so much. It really makes me think about how much she has seen. I know many people are upset about Epilogue. I understand, I still have mixed emotions about it. I can't decide if I feel like its okay that she is with Jem. I mean you could look at as having your first love but marring someone else and then getting back together with your first love after many many years. I also think about it like this if we look at her as just a widow would we encourage her to date and find somebody new? I guess it's hard to be alone, and it's nice to have someone you know that has gone through similar things with. But then I am partial to her romance to Will's. I was happy they married!
Hey does anyone think what will happen if Tessa and Jem have kids how that would look on the family tree!
I don't feel bad for Tessa being an immortal. Yes she has to and will face more beloved's deatsh in the future, but she has also been blessed with so many graces, with having Will to love her, then Jem to love her, Will as a husband and Jem as a couple, and offpsring and friends who love her.She never had to choose which man to be with. Her love life was convenient enough. When Will was not available, Jem was and vice versa.
If she considered her forever life is so miserable, she could then strip her immortality. If there is a way for Magnus to be a mortal, there should be one for Tessa. And why not? If it is possible for Jem to be a silent brother, and then stripped from being one, there would be a way for her.
Magnus might not want to lose someone he loves repeatedly, but he doesn't want to be stripped from his immortality either.
Vivian wrote: "I can't believe I just read that. She didn't have to choose because circumstances took the choice away from her. She was watching one man die slowly, or actually quickly, before her eyes and helpless to stop it. "Who did you compare Tessa's love life with?
And please! Spare me your amazement. I read the series more than enough time to make sure I get what I read, and not what I did not read. I am realistic enough with what I read and don't get swayed by the emotion I feel for the characters in book to decide whether the book is awesome, good or less interesting.
TID was started with awesome Clockwork Angel, where Tessa felt in love with Will and too consumed with that love that she regarded Jem's passionate love as something to love back in a sisterly kind of love, one that she also had for Nate.
Clockwork Prince actually gave a good start for a convincing equal love, where Tessa and Jem had a fiery bed scene.
What happened after that? No more than Tessa went back into All-about-Will's mode. She blamed herself for misleading Jem into believing something that was not there, accepted his proposal due to so many excuses but passionate love for Jem, and has been in miserable and unhappy state, till the end of the book.
Then in Clockwork Princess Tessa was suddenly so in love with Jem, similar to her passionate feeling for Will. Where that came from? Out of blue?
Let me go back to what I feel about that convenient love life.
Tessa was so in love with Will. Will denied her and she had a bed scene with Jem. When she was betrothed to Jem, Jem 'died' and she and Will made love. Then Jem had to be a silent brother, hence Will was to marry her. When Will met his demise, Tessa was still surrounded by her relative, which later she decided to leave behind. Then Jem is back to her.
3 parties might suffer so much in TID, but despite what Cassie tried to explain on her tumblr or page, the only convincing loves are Will's and Jem's for Tessa. Tessa's equal love was not built properly for Jem in CA and CP.
You might want to read why I felt betrayed when reading Clockwork Princess before deciding furthermore about what I feel about each character in TID. I love Will yes, but I never mind if Tessa denied Will and accepted Jem at the beginning. I might be sad, but I will appreciate that more (if I was ever served with convincing facts in the book).
Having Tessa move on with her life and have Jem with her has nothing to do with why I like or less like TID. It is the flaws that made me decided so. That I could not find such a convincing equal love built in CA and CP. That I was suddenly served with such love in CP2.
And please be kind enough to click 'reply', so I know exactly that you are responding to me.
Vivian wrote: "Replying to your very rude post: ....Unless you are a selfish, uncaring, using, conniving b@*ch. ...."LOL.... Hahahaha...What a polite response. Aren't you a very kind and decent person?
So I disagree with you, and you consider me very rude? Did I call you names? Did I underestimate you? Didn't I just respond to your comment?
If you could not deal with that, then you need to learn more how to deal with responses.
You seem to compare Tessa's life to general lives, or sadly said, with real life in real life, not with other characters in the book. Aren't we supposed to stick to the words we read when we are to support our comments about certain books?
What does Tessa watching her love died relate to hers conveniently not have to choose whom she should be, for the boys would always be with her all her life?
That is why I asked you who you were comparing Tessa's love life with.
And if Tessa will not get as much happiness as Jem might get, she could strip her immortality and be immortal.
Nurlely wrote: "Vivian wrote: "Replying to your very rude post: ....Unless you are a selfish, uncaring, using, conniving b@*ch. ...."LOL.... Hahahaha...What a polite response. Aren't you a very kind and decent p..."
I did not call you any names. I was stating that unless Tessa was that type of person, which she was not. And now I have nothing else to say to you. Please do not reply back to me either.
Vivian wrote: "I did not call you any names. I was stating that unless Tessa was that type of person, which she was not. And now I have nothing else to say to you. Please do not reply back to me either. "You were seriously referring those names to anyone who think differently to what you feel about my convenient love.
Don't consider this comment as something to 'force' you to reply to me.
I never wish to discuss anything with someone who need to learn to deal with responses. And why did you remove your 'not-calling-names' comment if you are so right?
If you don't wish any reply, don't post anything. This is a discussion forum, not a personal blog. Thank you.
OMG! There's to many comments so I didn't read it all. So I don't know if anyone mentioned this before but... Will's death was soo sad. I'm not sure, but I think this is the only place I cried!"With tears running down her face, Cecily
had reminded him of the moment at her
wedding to Gabriel when he had delivered a
beautiful speech praising the groom, at the
end of which he had announced, “Dear God,
I thought she was marrying Gideon. I take it
all back,” thus vexing not only Cecily and
Gabriel but Sophie as well—and Will,
though too tired to laugh, had smiled at his
sister and squeezed her hand."
This was sooo sad!! :'( He couldn't laugh anymore! Will Herondale!
By two cents in this story is:
At the start Tessa clearly loved Will more than his Parabatai! Yet in the last book she seems to love Jem more! (WHAT?!)
I liked Jem at the start but in the final book I like hid less (I couldn't really tell you why, that's just how I felt). Personally, I wanted her to end up with Will (and ONLY Will). I didn't really care too much for Jem, except that he was a sweet guy and Will's best friend and it would be sad if he died.
This being said, I was glad she ended up with Will and wasn't happy Jem became a Silent Brother because he loses who he is (you get what I mean). I thought death would've been less confusing and more peaceful for him.
BUT, she ends up with Jem too?? WHAT?! Now this, this was stretching it too far. Way too far! HOW can she be in a relationship with Jem after Will? After she has CHILDREN with Will for God's sake! I felt disgusted with this! The story would've been a lot better if she ended up with ONE man and not BOTH!
Angela wrote: "I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS (someone please answer them)1) i kinda felt like we still don"t really get the ending for Jem and Tessa "cause their last scene is in 2008- that is the period during City of ..."
According to some spoilers by Cassandra Clare she says that in the last installment of TMI it will talk about how Brother Zachariah finds a cure to being a silent brother. Apparently Isabelle also makes a comment on how hot he was. I can't find the spoiler again though I believe it was on her tumblr. We will also see Jem tell Tessa about the connection between the Herondale, Lightwood, and Fairchild. We also might see a little of them in TDA as well. She's also writing THL which is apparently going to be between TID and TMI. So we will see more of Tessa and Will story as well.
I hope that Jem and Church will be reunited. I think that will be the best thing ever.
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Here is my issue. The ending was a cop out to me, but I would have felt better about it had I felt like the love triangl..."
What the author was thinking when they answered a question and what they write in their books are not always the same.
CC is kind to keep in touch with her fans through tumblr, but even CC is not free of flaws.
After reading CP, fans asked CC if Tessa loved Jem and Will the same romantic way, and CC's answer implied that it is the same. Unfortunately, that is not what we read in CA and CP.
If we are to submit just the moments between Tessa and Jem or Tessa and Will, then we are served with Tessa's feeling for Will in a romantic way, and a different one for Jem.
If we can go back to 2010, then we could read that CC was excited when Alex won the polling in Facebook for Jace character. Alex is the perfec5 Jace. When Jamie was cast later on, CC was quiet for a while before saying that she thought Jamie is what she imagined Jace was.
I have followed CC since 2010 and love her still. But I also know that CC is not without flaws. And we are not mind readers. A story is what we get from then book we read, not from outside it, especially not when the additional info contradicts the words we read.