The Malazan Fallen discussion

Deadhouse Gates (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #2)
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Group Read - Deadhouse Gates > DG - End of Book Discussion

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message 1: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
A place to discuss the entire book.

Spoilers from this or the previous book are fine, anything pertaining to the rest of the series should be in spoiler tags.

When in doubt, please you tags.


message 2: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Overall I don't think I liked this book as much as Gardens of the Moon although I gave them the same rating.

This was a solid 3 for most my read, but finished strong and bumped itself to a 4.

You can read my full review if so inclined.


Lori This book is just so painful, I know that's why I had a problem with it the first read.

Memories of Ice got a 5 star rating from me, and I'm very stingy with my 5 stars. I hope you'll find it the same, Rob.


message 4: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Lori wrote: "This book is just so painful, I know that's why I had a problem with it the first read.

Memories of Ice got a 5 star rating from me, and I'm very stingy with my 5 stars. I hope you'll find it the..."


I may be a bit late starting it, although considering how quickly I seem to be tearing into The Way of Kings, probably not too late.


Lori I liked that book, it's a good alternative, easy but intelligent.


Aildiin | 39 comments My favorite Malazan book with Memories of Ice.
I just wish more of the good guys made it out alive...


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments More people speaking highly of Memories of Ice! My bestie told me today that it's his favourite, so I'm stoked to read it.

I'm with you on this book, Rob. I too liked Gardens of the Moon better. Too much military in this book, I think.


message 8: by Lori (last edited Mar 17, 2013 05:36PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Same here, Kat, that also caused some of my distaste my first time over. I guess now that I see how it fits into the whole, I found the whole thing fascinating. SE is one of the only writers who writes lots of military that I'm willing to follow, probably because there's so much more going on. It's not just "and then they feinted" and "the flank blah blah"


message 9: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
The military parts weren't an issue for me at all. I was just really frustrated at the start and it took me some time to warm up to it.


message 10: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Yeah, it was rather jarring to move away from the characters in GotM when I wanted to continue with them. And I had just thought I had gotten everything straight, but now we're onto NEW characters, and a NEW location? Then I found myself getting absorbed in these characters, but when we leave these for others, oh no! SE does this a lot, and once I got used to this, I keenly welcomed a different setting knowing I'd be just as attached. And then as the series progresses it all starts fitting together.

I think men are far more into military than many females. Not all, of course.


message 11: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Well personally I found Kalam's storyline the most interesting.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Lori, you are going to have to get used to it. You are going to feel uprooted, and thrown in with new characters several more times.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments This time around, I was most interested in Icarium and Mappo. I was especially blown away by the idea that Icarium had caused the broken warren that has become Raraku, and that he did it to try to free his father from an Azath house. Add to that the idea that we get to meet his father, and that he's perfectly content to reside, forever, in the Azath house, and there are just layers upon layer of poignancy to the story.


Mikeiwo | 57 comments For me, this is certainly in the top half of my favourites. The Chain of Dogs is such a phenomenal story, and the fact that SE has the courage to end it the way he did speaks volumes for the rest of the series.

I may be unlike many of the folks here, but the Genebackis (Daru) novels are my least favourite, with Toll the Hounds likely at the bottom of the list.

Deadhouse Gates certainly is the one the stirs the most intense emotions for me. As Chaz mentioned, that final run of Coltaine's is absolutely gut wrenching.


message 15: by Chaz (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chaz | 297 comments Mikeiwo wrote: "Deadhouse Gates certainly is the one the stirs the most intense emotions for me. As Chaz mentioned, that final run of Coltaine's is absolutely gut wrenching."

This one gets the most emotional reaction from me and it was this book that gripped me on this series. I enjoy the Kalam assassin fights and that kind of thing because they are very cool but I can read that stuff elsewhere. It's the scope of stories like Icarium's coupled with being down on the front lines in the Chain of Dogs that does it for me.

@Rob That sense of disorientation will happen a few more times in this series. Next book we're back with Dujek and crew so that should be better but it is not until about book 7 that all the major players are on stage.


message 16: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I was most affected by Icarium/Mappo and the scenes at Aren. And how what makes the Malazan so great is also their downfall.


message 17: by Gene (new) - rated it 3 stars

Gene I might be in minority, but I like the first book more. I found Felisin parts to be too long with her being very annoying. Chain of Dogs subplot is good, but for some reason I did not care about Duiker - he himself is not very interesting character.

Even Fiddler's parts are boring for most of the book: his group mostly wonders around in the desert seemingly aimlessly. Fiddler becomes much more interesting character later on.

The next book, Memories of Ice is good, but I like The Bonehunters much more as it manages to keep pace through the whole book.


message 18: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I don't remember how I reacted, but DH wasn't at the top of the list.

First read I was most affected by Mappo. Then Icarium. This relationship is so tender. Mappo now knows he was used, but has developed love for Icarium and he realizes he can't fulfill his duty because of it. Such guilt over that! But he has chosen his heart. And he was able to overcome Icarium.

This time I was able to get into Coltaine because I knew the other parts. It was very military which and I preferred the other stories going on. So I missed out on the beauty of Coltaine and his noble heroics. More heartbreak!

Duiker is above all a historian and his writing is such. He doesn't interject much of himself as it is job not to. He's kind of like our morality conscience.

Kalam had a beautiful moment with the child who becomes Apt's.

So many transcendent moments that arise from the surrounding horror. This is the beauty of SE, that we have this juxtaposed with darkness of living in a time of war.


message 19: by David (last edited Mar 18, 2013 05:21PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David (drl2) | 41 comments I thought DG was better than GotM, I certainly felt more invested in the story and really appreciated all the layers of complexity woven among the relationships we follow. I'm reading ahead and just finished MoI this weekend, and I think its even better. As much as I "felt" the effects of DG, it was nothing like after MoI. I'm in love with this series.

If I was rereading I'm not so sure how I'd rate them. I think I'd appreciate a lot of things that happened in GotM more, and perhaps part of my increased joy from DG and MoI was due to knowing what to expect and paying closer attention.


message 20: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I'm not re-rating them.


message 21: by David (last edited Mar 18, 2013 05:34PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

David (drl2) | 41 comments Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you (or any re-reader) are rating based on your re-read or anything. I gave 4-stars to GotM and 5 to DG/MoI. I just wonder - if I personally re-read them if I would find more to love in GotM now that I'm a bit more into the series.

That said, I've read a few series where I wouldn't rate all of the individual books at 5-stars but I would easily rate the series that way. This is certainly shaping up as a 5-star series for me so far.


message 22: by Lori (last edited Mar 18, 2013 08:56PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Oh I didn't take your post that way at all! And yes even tho I rated each book individually the whole series is most definitely 5! Just the fact I'm rereading it and letting it eat a chunk of my life again. The reason I've decided not to rate again is that they would definitely all be 5.


David (drl2) | 41 comments Ah I see... we are totally on the same page then ; >


message 24: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars


message 25: by Aaron Vincent (last edited Mar 29, 2013 08:19AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 59 comments DG is definitely harder to get into than GotM, but the ending made the more difficult parts worth it. It's the complete opposite of GotM. While I like earlier parts of GotM I feel indifference to its ending. In DG the indifference was in the earlier parts because most of the time I had no idea what's going on. I guess it had something to do with the structure of the chapters. Whereas in GotM, we mostly get a number of narratives in a specific location, in DG SE tries to pack as much narratives in one chapter. Most of the times even all of them but only in varying orders. It was overwhelming and had that episodic feel to it.

But it still a four. SE had guts taking the story in places I didn't expect him to take this early in the series. I like that. Reading early books in a series by some authors, I'd feel like they're withholding an ace that they will play on the last books. SE doesn't gave me that impression.

I'm afraid I'm falling into a pattern here. Actively participating on the discussions of the first few chapters then reading on my own on the latter parts. It's like I'm using this group as a crutch in the beginning of the book and then going solo once I get a grip of the things going on. I hope you guys don't mind. :)

Excited to read MoI but I'll finish a book first as a breather.


message 26: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
In think you'll find MOI a lot easier. It continues on with characters we left behind in GoTM and centres on events back on Genebackis


message 27: by Silvio (last edited Apr 08, 2013 04:30PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Silvio Curtis | 403 comments At first I was worried violence would swamp plot development. Didn't happen. The end of the Chain of Dogs was magnificent. The beginning of the book seemed a bit anti-Empire, the end a bit pro-Empire, with plenty of near-nihilistic cynicism all the way through, but I'm still hoping to hear a more developed version of how the Empire justifies itself to the common people.

One thing I'm still wondering about is how Fiddler and Kalam arrived in Malaz City on the same night. Was it just coincidence?

I won't be able to start Memories of Ice yet because it hasn't come on Interlibrary Loan yet, so I'm taking a nonfiction break.


message 28: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Or was it Push or Pull? :)

I don't think you'll get the answers you are looking for in this series Silvio, it is more about post Kellenved's empire. I certainly see the original empire building as very similar to the british empire. Lots of expansion to gain access to resources, gain some exotic alliances to add to the armies, similar to Ghurkas and Sudanese troops, we have Moranth and Imass. All with the pretence of bringing stability and fairness to the masses, either by religion or governmental doctrine.

I think that makes sense? Havent had my coffee yet


message 29: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Silvio wrote: "One thing I'm still wondering about is how Fiddler and Kalam arrived in Malaz City on the same night. Was it just coincidence?"

Well time does move differently in the Azath houses - and then you have Shadowthrone with his eye on both Kalam and Fiddler's group. So one could speculate a little cosmic tweaking was involved. We also don't know everything the Aptorian demon was saying to Shadowthrone and Cotillion - she may have requested backup for Kalam at some stage. There was that conversation with Cotillion where they talk about Apsalar and then Apt seemed to push her luck with something but we don't know exactly what.


Linette | 152 comments Done! Gut wrenching, intriguing, confusing, sometimes surprising and only rarely satisfying my wish for the nasty people to get what is coming to them. There are so many layers to these books, I can't even see them all, let alone understand them all.
Love that Kalam has ended up with a new career, haha. Happy that Coltaine and Duiker may put in appearances at some later point in time.
Most clearly imprinted image for me from this book... when they first discovered then awoke the headless crew on board the ship. I think I would rather swim! Also, the undead dragon soletaken bonecaster intrigued me greatly.
On to MoI !


message 31: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
I totally agree with the Silanda being one of my snapshot moments in this book.
The other moments were the running battle through Tremorlor. Kalam in the streets of Malaz.
Blood fly larvae of course are another take away...rice.

Icarium and Mappo were very cool. Iskarel Pust is just insanely funny.

There was also Coltaine at the end but I didn't feel as much of an affinity with Coltaine as a lot of people. Maybe it would be different if I had some association with the military but I didn't feel I got a lot of access to him as a character, and The Chain of Dogs was mentally exhausting - especially already knowing how it was going to end. I was more interested in the history of the land we learn as they traverse the desert.

Fantastic world building.


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments Fantastic world building.

Definitely. It's hard to define what I like best about these books, but the world building is superb.


message 33: by [deleted user] (new)

I found the interesting thing about Coltaine is that he might be the only(?) character in the series who got stuff done by being really, really smart.

No warrens, no ascendancy, nothing.
Barely a working army.

It's entirely possible I'm overlooking some super-genius though...


message 34: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
That's a great point. He always seemed to maximize what little resources he had as they marched along and accomplished the seemingly impossible in the process.


message 35: by [deleted user] (new)

Aye, that raw intelligence was a great contrast to Kalam's brutality in DH or even Rake's, I dunno, Omnipotence in GOTM


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments I didn't think about that, but yes. I like that. Just being very good at making use of what you have.


message 37: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Huh. ALtho he did have the 2 kids, Nether and Nils... but still you're right!


message 38: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Jack wrote: "I found the interesting thing about Coltaine is that he might be the only(?) character in the series who got stuff done by being really, really smart."

He was really smart. And he united the Wickan Empire in the past. But he did on this march solicit the aid of the spirits of the land through Sormo, Nil and Nether - but that was mostly to counter the magic thrown at them. He still had to bring military tactics and strategy and resource management to bear to make it to Aren.


message 39: by [deleted user] (new)

I found Erikson emphasized Coltaine's raw intelligence in his depiction, more so than with other protagonists.

Shadowthrone by contrast, is crafty, but also defined by his obvious power.

When I read Coltaine's segments, I got a real kick out of them for this reason. I kept* stopping to say "Ha! He's a clever bugger!"


*This may not be, strictly speaking, true.


message 40: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
I think a lot of his success (if we can call it that) is that he knew his opposition, he knew what tactics they would use and their arrogance with the sheer number supremacy they had. He used that well and did the unexpected.


Weenie | 4 comments Finally finished this, my first read and thought it was excellent. Would have found it a lot more difficult to read/grasp had it not been for the chapter threads, so a big thanks to all who contributed, really helped me along!

The storyline that sticks with me most is the Chain of Dogs one, makes me feel like weeping again just thinking about it!


message 42: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I did but didn't want t reread that segment, horrible horrible!


Silvio Curtis | 403 comments Lee wrote: "Or was it Push or Pull? :)

I don't think you'll get the answers you are looking for in this series Silvio, it is more about post Kellenved's empire. I certainly see the original empire building a..."


Oh well, I would have liked to see more of the non-military side of this world, but there's so much packed into the series anyway that I'm not complaining.

On Coltaine, I didn't feel like we got a very personal look at him, but then neither do any of the other characters. Part of his mystique, I think, is that nobody knows just what goes on in his head. I didn't get the sense that he was some kind of super-genius - though maybe he is, and he certainly isn't stupid - just that he never loses his head, even though he has every excuse to, just hangs in there as long as he can and beyond all reasonable hope it's long enough. That cool-headedness was what made him an emotionally involving character for me, anyway. Then his death, within sight of Aren's walls while Pormquall stands by and does nothing, was a perfectly designed hero's death (which I didn't see coming til the last minute, either) in a series where traditional heroes aren't thick on the ground, and the business with Squint and the crows was a crowning twist only possible in a fantasy setting.


message 44: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori I agree that we never get into Coltaine's head which is one of the reasons I wasn't as emotionally involved the first read.

But I think we do get glimpses of what the Malazan Empire brings to the regular civilians: law and order. It's talked about, and comes up again in MoI.


message 45: by Paul (new) - rated it 5 stars

Paul (brocklaser) | 55 comments Finished!

WOW! I loved this book! Emotional roller coaster throughout! Some characters need to get their comeuppance.

I was sad when Coltaine and Duiker died but it does look like they will be making a comeback at some point so that is good! Onto the next book and my attempt to catch you all up!


message 46: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
We await you in The House of Chains :)

As long as you're knocking off more than four a week you'll catch us.

What awaits you? Books even better than this one ;)


Weenie | 4 comments Hmmm...a few months before I read the House of Chains....big catch up to do!


Federico | 3 comments I have conflicting feelings about this book, mainly because it is so different from what I´m used to read. On one side I really like Erikson´s writing and how he expects you to work your way through the plot. But on the other side I´m really disliking how a new threat comes up out of nowhere in every book making me feel like I´m reading a series of novels. Still I hope the different story lines have something to do, and are not just put in there for momentary plot-enhancement such as the Jaghut tyrant.


message 49: by Sumant (new) - added it

Sumant I liked this book especially Mappo and Icarium part, Coltaine and his chain of dogs were hard to follow first then it really got interesting, also the journey felsin went through was really good.


message 50: by Ben (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ben Cooper | 10 comments Fantastic book. Now I cant wait to see what all the other guys were about in Memories of Ice!


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