The Malazan Fallen discussion

Deadhouse Gates (Malazan Book of the Fallen, #2)
This topic is about Deadhouse Gates
170 views
Group Read - Deadhouse Gates > DG - Chapter Twenty Three - NO SPOILERS

Comments Showing 1-39 of 39 (39 new)    post a comment »
dateDown arrow    newest »

message 1: by Lee, High Priest of Shadow (last edited Mar 17, 2013 02:06AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lee (kiwifirst) | 1508 comments Mod
Laseen sent Tavore
Rushing across the seas
to clasp Coltaine's hand
And closing her fingers
She held crow-picked bones.


The Sha'ik Uprising
Wu


message 2: by Juniper (last edited Mar 17, 2013 04:04AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments Does Laseen and Kalam know each other well? I don't remember - was he a Claw Master? In that case he must have worked closely with her. I want to know more about her.

But why does Shadowthrone reward the lot of them? Apt spoke well of them, but still?


message 3: by Lori (last edited Mar 17, 2013 10:02AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori It's all part of his plan, I'm sure. He did say he was going to benefit from having all those children, so he needed parent for them?

So where was Laseen? I'm still not sure of the significance of this.


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments Am I the only one who has some difficulty envisioning Kalam parenting all these children?


Lori Hahaha! So that's Shadowthrone's plan, an army of assassins?!


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Remember that, with Cotillion's last appearance, we learned that Shadowthrone has underestimated the abilities of the natives of his realm. Also, Cotillion and Shadowthrone may have a very limited awareness of what's even in their realm. I don't think Apt just spoke well of them. Rather, I think Apt may have threatened Shadowthrone, and he's powerful enough that Shadowthrone took it somewhat seriously. (Is this anymore implausible than Kalam assassinating an Empress?)

Shadowthrone seemed giddy, and a bit insane in this passage. I think he was granting the rewards because he had to, and taking whatever advantage he could on the spot. The two points I took seriously from him where his warning to Kalam not to try to get to far behind the motivations of the gods: they do what they want. And also, his relenting to Fiddler and expressing some admiration for him. That, at least, I thought was genuine.

At this point, after two books, I'm still pretty much in the dark about what Shadowthrone's plans are, and what he's trying to achieve. They are, hmmm, shadowy at best.


Lori Apt is a she! She's got the hots for Kalam, hahaha!

I'm not sure she was threatening Shadowthrone, she's pretty mild mannered, but she could have been bargaining.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Here are the only clues we get about what passed between Apt and ST:

"Sudden clicking, buzzing sounds made the god shift around..."

When its done, ST exclaims "Clever bitch... look at her eyes! Such fury! I am impressed..."

Then he offers his "rewards," but through it all he is giggling, and seems (at least to me) a bit unsure of himself, remarkably so for Shadowthrone.

So whatever Apt said to ST, it threw him off his stride. It might have been a bargain, it might have been a threat, but whatever it was, it seems pretty clear that Apt has a will independent of ST, and it looks to me like he is simultaneously amused and uneasy about the result... And yes, he definitely thinks its hilarious that Apt has fallen for Kalam.


Lori Say what you will about Shadowthrone but he does seem to surround himself with independent colleagues. She admirably gets pissed, and ST giggles with surprise, but also amusement. They are bickering like a partnership.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments That's possible too. In that sense, maybe not so different from Pust and Mogora???

And your point about independent colleagues is an excellent one. Shadowthrone loves making deals, manipulating others, and double crossing. He can only do those things if the one's around them have their own will, and are more than just extensions of himself. So, it's part of his nature to surround himself with figures who might oppose or betray him. Nice thought.


message 11: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori Duffy wrote: "That's possible too. In that sense, maybe not so different from Pust and Mogora???"

Ha!


message 12: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
This was probably my favorite chapter! Kalam is awesome.

And once again, Erikson makes you question your opinions. Maybe Laseen isn't all bad after all. She convinces Kalam to reconsider killing her when she could simply have him killed. I'll be curious if we ever find out why.

I'm glad Kalam is alive though. Especially after the last chapter.


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments She doesn't seem that bad, but I think she can be slippery and smooth when she wants to be.


Duffy Pratt | 354 comments Sort of like an eel? I wonder if Kruppe would be flattered or insulted (maybe both). There is some real subtlety to her charade with Kalam. To get him to consider her version of events, she had to make it seem like she was open to some risk, or at least that that was possible. So she cast the elaborate spell that made it seem like her voice was coming from everywhere but the mouth it was coming from. Kalam couldn't see it, so he at least thought that he had spotted where she was. But of course, she wasn't there at all. Instead, she was projecting the voice from an entirely different place, probably from a different city. There's a suggestion that Kalam suspected that, but his uncertainty about her putting herself in jeopardy probably helped him change his mind.

Also, I love the irony involved. Laseen's account of her actions make her seem like she was exactly like Kalam. An assassin who decided that her devotion to the empire justified her in killing the Emperor she was sworn to serve. And, I think she knew that the last thing Kalam wants is to be just like her, so he couldn't do what she had done, and he changed his mind. Great stuff.


message 15: by Lori (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lori But can we trust Laseen? I'm not sure.


message 16: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
We get to meet Gothos, a Jaghut guardian of the Deadhouse on Malaz. From Gothos we get a few facts cleared up.

1. Icarium is Gothos son

Fiddler stared, seeing what he could not believe – the resemblance was unmistakeable, every feature an echo. His mind reeled.

2. Icarium is responsible for shattering the Elder warren of Kurald Emurlahn in an attempt to rescue his father from the Azath. The attempt is what damaged his memory

Wounded warrens are a dangerous thing. Wounding one is far more so. My son sought a way to free me from the Azath. He failed. And was ... damaged.

3. We get confirmation that it was the Nameless ones - not Icarium, that destroyed Mappo's town. They were desperate and they thought it was the only way to recruit Mappo for the task

The Trell. He has walked at Icarium’s side too long, it seems. There are duties that surpass friendship. The Elders scarred him deep when they destroyed an entire settlement and laid the blame at Icarium’s feet. They imagined that would suffice. A Watcher was needed, desperately.

4. The reason a watcher is needed was specifically to avert Icarium's rages and to eventually lead him to the Azath. He couldn't be left to just wander alone.

A Watcher was needed, desperately. The one who had held that responsibility before had taken his own life. For months Icarium walked the land alone, and the threat was too great.’

‘My son must be stopped – his rage is a poison,’ the Jaghut said. ‘Some responsibilities surpass friendship, surpass even blood.’

Unfortunately, Mappo and Icarium had already left before learning this bit of information - as well as the fact that Gothos didn't need or want to be rescued. In the Azath he could be left in peace - free from the T'lan Imass obsession of hunting down Jaghut.


message 17: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
And Kalam gets a face to face - or rather face to corpse encounter with the Empress. And from this encounter we learn a few other things - though we have to decide how much we are to believe Laseen.

Firstly the battle of Pale. Laseen says that the decimation of the Bridgeburners was not part of the plan. That it was rather Tayschrenn's failure of judgement.

Laseen’s tone hardened. ‘High Mage Tayschrenn’s efforts in Genabackis were misguided. The decimation of the Bridgeburners was not a part of my intentions. Within your squad was a young woman, possessed by a god that sought to kill me. Adjunct Lorn was sent to deal with her—’

In other words, Laseen asserts that Tayschrenn got carried away and overstepped himself diverting from the plan in going after Sorry, by taking the "scattergun" approach.


We get direct confirmation that Dujek's outlawing was a ruse thought up by Onearm himself which she agreed to

We perceived the threat that was the Pannion Domin. Dujek, however, was of the opinion that he could not deal with it on his own. We needed to fashion allies of enemies, Kalam. We needed Darujhistan’s resources, we needed Caladan Brood and his Rhivi and Barghast, we needed Anomander Rake and his Tiste Andii. And we needed the Crimson Guard off our backs...

...But the question of trust remained problematic. I agreed to Dujek’s plan to cut him and his Host loose. As outlaws, they are, in effect, distanced from the Malazan Empire and its desires – our answer, if you will, to the issue of trust.’


We learn that Tayschrenn is now working under Dujek

Tayschrenn is Dujek’s – how do you soldiers say it – his shaved knuckle in the hole.’


But Kalam has other beefs. The killing of the Emperor, Dancer, Dassem Ultor and others. All of which she answers were for the good of the Empire.

Ultimately, it is none of these arguments that convince Kalam to end his quest to assassinate her.
He decides based on her obvious anger and passion when it comes to what is being done to the Malazan Army and citizens in Seven Cities.

‘Seven Cities—’
‘Will be answered in kind,’ she snapped.
Despite himself, the assassin’s eyes widened at the anger he heard there. Well, what do you know! Empress, you did not need your illusions after all. Thus, the hunt ends here. He sheathed the knife.


Kalam explains

‘You could have begged for your life. You could have given more reasons, made more justifications. Instead, you spoke, not with your voice, but with an empire’s.’

It was her genuine anger at the events in Seven Cities that convinces Kalam that Laseen acts for the empire and not merely(or not only) for her own selfish ends.

Laseen allows Kalam to leave and even tries to get the Claw to back off their own vendetta - which lends some credibility to her motives.


message 18: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Kat wrote: "But why does Shadowthrone reward the lot of them? Apt spoke well of them, but still? "

The god seemed to cock its head. ‘In truth, I owe you nothing, sapper. Only Apt speaks for you. Alas, she’s acquired a certain ... leverage.

I'm really interested to know what exactly that leverage is. I get the impression She has something that Shadowthrone wants. I don't think he is truly afraid of her other than she seems to be threatening to change her mind rather than threatening violence.

And I think it amused him to play the god rewarding his subjects for obedience.


Fiddler is rather unimpressed with Shadowthrone

Fiddler groaned, looked up. ‘Shadowthrone is it now? Kellanved, more like it! We ain’t fooled, y’ got that? You can hide in those fancy shadows all you like, but you’re still just the damned Emperor!’

And also in keeping with Shadowthrone's twisted humour - Kalam and Minala get to play Mommy and Daddy to the thirteen hundred children he was indirectly responsible for
saving from the sliding beds in the desert.

Yay...I think.


Juniper (juniperx) | 237 comments I'm really interested to know what exactly that leverage is.

Me too.


Hanne (hanne2) | 228 comments A familiar voice whispered close to him. 'We've got her -and Crokus has the stallion'
Kalam blinked. 'Sorry?'
'It's Apsalar these days, Corporal.'


i kind of miss her going by the name Sorry, it gave a lot of nice word plays, but at least we got one more of out it.


i liked the scene with Laseen and Kalam. it does make me wonder how bad she is. this whole set-up with dujek and the bridgeburners - if it's real, it's pretty neatly done.


Silvio Curtis | 403 comments Sounds like Laseen can indeed talk the assassin philosophy Cotillion thinks she shares with him, and Kalam believes in it too. But I'm not taking anything she said as a trustworthy indication of what she believes, at least not yet. She's already shown she has more than one layer and I suspect there are a lot more.


message 22: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
A healthy dose of skepticism is definitely the way to approach the various POV's when it comes to motives


message 23: by Ben (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ben Cooper | 10 comments Hold on. I thought that the vessel that Duiker got from Coltaine was from Quick Ben. But QB doesn't know Dujek's outlawing is a ruse because when he spoke with Kalam he didn't stop him from proceeding with the plan of assassinating Lassin. And we learn in this chapter that Tayschrenn is Dujek's now, hence the gift was from him.
But why did that guy said that the gift came from a mage that a lot of gods will want dead? hmmm I am baffled.


message 24: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Ben wrote: "Hold on. I thought that the vessel that Duiker got from Coltaine was from Quick Ben. But QB doesn't know Dujek's outlawing is a ruse because when he spoke with Kalam he didn't stop him from proceed..."

It was from Quick Ben. What does Dujek's Outlaw status have to do with it though?


Mpauli | 245 comments Ben wrote: "But why did that guy said that the gift came from a mage that a lot of gods will want dead? hmmm I am baffled. "

I don't think that your conclusions are contradictional. If you go just one step further that would make Tayshrenn a mage that a lot of gods want dead.
So, I think you've learned something about Tayshrenn here.


message 26: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
I don't think Tayshrenn working for Dujek has anything to do with the soul shifting necklace Coltaine received and gave to Duiker. It's the same kind of magic QB used on Hairlock in GotM. I think the mage whose angered the Gods is him.

I think he's confused and so are you. But it's been awhile since I've read this now. Maybe David can come to the rescue with a quote or two and clear things up.


Mpauli | 245 comments Ouch, should have read those things more carefully. I'm such a Tayshrenn fanboy sometimes. I was so caught up in the sentence about the gods, that I didn't get the the important part of the question was, who the vessel was from.

Rob is totally right. The soul-shifting thingy comes from QB.


message 28: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
The bottle came from Quick Ben delivered via Trygalle Trade Guild along with supplies from Dujek

‘And, from an alarmingly mysterious mage among the Bridgeburners, this gift was fashioned.’ He held it out to Coltaine. ‘For you. Wear it. At all times, Fist.’

If Quick didn't know that the outlawing was a ruse before - then Dujek sending the Trygalle Trade Guild to resupply Coltaine gives it away - even the mage in charge of the delivery has worked that much out.

But Kalam and Quick's plan to assassinate Lasseen is revenge for the Bridgeburners getting slaughtered at Pale - that motive would still hold regardless of whether Dujek was outlawed or not - in their minds Lasseen is still out to get the Bridgeburners regardless


message 29: by Ben (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ben Cooper | 10 comments David Sven wrote: "The bottle came from Quick Ben delivered via Trygalle Trade Guild along with supplies from Dujek

‘And, from an alarmingly mysterious mage among the Bridgeburners, this gift was fashioned.’ He held..."


Thanks! that cleared that up. I was confused because it really sounded like QB but he didn't actually said it.
So I guess that's the same kind of magic he used on Hairlock... Don't know how I feel about that. I love Duiker, But a marionette? I hope he will be back in a more proper form.

Also, Did Kalam understood that Laseen wasn't realy there? If he wasn't convinced by her words and tried to have a go at it. What wold have happened? If she really wasn't there in the flesh, then why did she sounded afraid of him?


message 30: by David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow (new) - rated it 5 stars

David Sven (gorro) | 2042 comments Mod
Lasseen understood that Kalam knew she wasn't there

‘At some point in our conversation, Kalam realized that I was not here in the flesh..'

Her fear is that he may have been just pretending to change his mind about her after he realised she wasn't there and may continue to hunt her. She seems mostly convinced that she brought him around though


Silvio Curtis | 403 comments Ben wrote: "So I guess that's the same kind of magic he used on Hairlock... Don't know how I feel about that. I love Duiker, But a marionette? I hope he will be back in a more proper form."

That's Quick Ben for you. Accepting his help is scary but doing without it is impossible.


message 32: by Dara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dara (cmdrdara) | 210 comments Okay I missed that the necklace thing Duiker had was a soul shifting thing. So did Duiker shift after he was crucified? Or is the answered later.


message 33: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
Later.


message 34: by Dara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dara (cmdrdara) | 210 comments Hah just finished the book. Awesome. Just awesome.


message 35: by Conor (new) - added it

Conor | 78 comments Read this ages ago but just getting around to posting my thoughts/brainfart now.

That Kalam-Laseen meeting was ridiculous. Kalam spent the entire book on a perilous, continent spanning journey to assassinate Laseen and then gave up after a minute long conversation. Also how bad of an assassin is he? Sure he went on an (almost unbelievably) badass killing spree against the Claw but the purpose of an assassin is to assassinate people, not kill a bunch of goons and then let the actual target go.

I also think Laseen is a pretty crappy empress. Her handling of the Genabackis situation is still very murky and we don't fully understand what's going on but the Seven cities rebellion was a monumental screw-up on her part. She gave possibly the biggest idiot in the entire Malazan universe practically unlimited power to screw up the continent and completely failed to monitor the situation. Then she sent Coltaine at the head of an immensely valuable and skilled army on a pointless suicide mission. Under other circumstances I'd be more forgiving due to the obvious difficulty of her position but given her betrayal/murder spree to actually take the throne she surely has a responsibility to do the job well.


message 36: by Rob, Quick Ben (new) - rated it 4 stars

Rob (robzak) | 1054 comments Mod
I'm kicking you from the group for badmouthing Kalam.


message 37: by Conor (new) - added it

Conor | 78 comments Worth it.


message 38: by Dara (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dara (cmdrdara) | 210 comments Rob will seriously kick you out if you ever badmouth Quick Ben (and I fully support him).


message 39: by Mike (new)

Mike | 7 comments I fully share your dissatisfaction with Laseen's actions. Erikson apparently espouses the theory of a Chief Exec thoroughly constrained by contending political forces in her/his regime. This is, perhaps, inconsistent with both the character and the office. Nevertheless, wait until the end of the book, and for the remaining books in the series before making your final assessment.


back to top