To kill a mockingbird

[J.D.]

I wasn't bragging about what I did in 1965, at age 18, and in that situation (riding the city bus). I felt I had to do something, I tried in a small way to make a statement to those few souls in that bus. I did it every day for three months. As far as I know, nothing changed until the Civil Rights Act was passed. Probably even then, it was hard for those people to change decades of tradition. Speaking to the conversation of poverty etc., I am so proud of any ethnic group or one person who rises above the situation in which he/she was born. I am even more proud of those who do not choose to blame their circumstances on their actions. I am extremely proud of people who tell us that it was due to their poor circumstances that made them want an education, a career, a life of giving instead of taking. They are true heros.

[[deleted user]]

J.D. wrote: "Shannon wrote: "J.D. wrote: "Since I wrote several days ago, I'm in awe at the turn this group has taken. I was born in Georgia, you can't get 'deep south' more than that. Here is what I did in 196..."

AH! Okay!

At my old school, it always came as a HUGE shock that slavery has existed forever. Of course, they also thought the holocaust of WWII was the first holocaust. That truth also shocked them terribly.

I'm glad to say this came up at my new school the other day, and they knew the history of slavery through the ages, etc....

When I think back, I'm not sure slavery was covered in my history classes when I grew up, apart from slavery in America, of course. I've always been a history nerd, though, and found a lot of historical knowledge through my own readings. One of the good things about The History Channel and some of the, albeit more sensational, series and movies regarding Rome, Spartacus, etc... is the fact that people are learning more about history.

I don't know .... I'm not shocked about slavery through the ages. What shocks and outrages me is the slavery that exists to this day. Since this is a thread started by a high schooler, I won't go into that. But, the adults can let their minds wander and know what I'm referring to. That's not only done oversees; there was just a story in the news the other day about someone who had been held as a slave in America. Granted, this is a different issue. Countries aren't doing it. Individuals, gangs, etc... are doing it. However, plenty of governments turn a blind eye to it, especially if they're given money to do so. The idea that it's 2013 and these things still happen, with little reporting or outrage, drive me five thousand shades of crazy.

(By the way, I read something once, though can't remember where, regarding slavery. The person contended that a percentage of people (can't remember the percentage ... though I think it was large) had ancestors who were slaves.)

[[deleted user]]

J.D. wrote: "I wasn't bragging about what I did in 1965, at age 18, and in that situation (riding the city bus). I felt I had to do something, I tried in a small way to make a statement to those few souls in th..."

Didn't think you were bragging. ;) It's important to point out, I think, that people did take a stand against the horrors of that time ... even white southerners. It's sometimes difficult not to overgeneralize, etc.... I'd say a lot of people envision all white people from that time and place as ... an Aunt Alexandra ... versus an Atticus.

Poverty is something else again. There aren't easy answers, as you point out. Some are raised in horrifying conditions, generational poverty, and rise above it in incredible ways. Why? It goes to my question regarding Asian students in Florida. I'm sure many of them face language barriers, discrimination, and poverty. Yet, they outperform children of all other races, if Florida can be believed. Why? Can the answers to those questions translate to others? If some can overcome, should the horrors of the past be focused upon, or should the focus be on how to succeed today and tomorrow?

I don't know .... I do know there aren't easy answers. I'm sure about that.

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "If some can overcome, should the horrors of the past be focused upon, or should the focus be on how to succeed today and tomorrow?"

The horrors of the past are inseparable from the realities of today. The ripple effect is eternal.

But I'll give a personal example.

I spent the last 9 years of my childhood in a Texas orphanage where for the first 2+ years the physical abuse equated to, in my therapists words, torture.

As an adult, I thought I'd put it all behind me. I'd gone through college on a partial scholarship and had a reasonably good career in corporate finance. A little erratic though, as I changed jobs frequently.

Then in '90 I was diagnosed with dysthymia, a low-grade but progress depression. This appeared at the time my oldest daughter's age paralleled my age when the orphanage beatings occurred. Then came the Rodney King beatings and trials. The scenes of his beatings triggered invasive memories of the arena beatings I had experienced at the children's home. In '93 I was diagnosed with PTSD stemming from that treatment and went on heavier and heavier medication and a small fortune in therapy. It took a toll on my marriage and my career. The horrors of my past came back to haunt me in a big way, and I'm still dealing with them.

My form of PTSD is similar to combat PTSD. It's from a series of events over an extended period of time. Each war creates a generation of emotional cripples. The people with PTSD affect their children, who are students in your classes. The learning environment is anything but ideal.

I can now extrapolate from my own experience with childhood trauma to African American families who endured centuries of trauma. But I couldn't do that until the Rodney King beating scenes linked me to Rodney. Before then, I was a die-hard Republican Konservative who thought: "If I can pull myself up by the boot straps, so can they! They're just lazy." Boy was I wrong.

I'm not saying I became a liberal overnight, but I haven't voted Republican since then.

There are no easy answers. But at least we're asking questions and looking for solutions.

If we fail to consider and understand the past it will be repeated.

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "Shannon wrote: "If some can overcome, should the horrors of the past be focused upon, or should the focus be on how to succeed today and tomorrow?"

The horrors of the past are inseparable from the..."

I'm very sorry for your experience.

This is a very hard topic.

PTSD....

Well, I was emotionally and physically abused by my Kindergarten teacher. My fellow students were also abused. One day, after a particularly horrid incident, I stood against my teacher. When she moved to hit me, one of the boys said, "Don't hit her, you b*tch! Hit me!" He had older brothers and always had a more colorful vocabulary. At any rate, after hitting him, she locked us both in the closet. Then, we listened as she beat our fellow students and as they cried and begged for help. I found a crack in the paint in the wall and dug and dug at it. In my five-year-old brain, I thought I could dig a hole through the wall and get to my friends and help them.

Now, I had parents and a fairly loving home. So, my circumstances were very different from yours. Further, my abuse wasn't longterm.

However, it did have a HUGE impact on my life. I remember being in my 20's and having a family friend say, "Do you realize, Shannon, that every important decision you've ever made has been the result of the fact that you're still locked in that closet?"

Mmmm....

I've been through therapy, a year of it, when one of my colleagues was accused of inappropriate contact with a student; he quit and turned in his certificate, which ended the investigation. My issues came to the fore then, again, and in a different way. All of a sudden, it was as if I'd been one of the teachers who listened to my classmates cry and scream and beg for help ... listened and did nothing to help them. Were there signs? Were there signs that I missed? Were students "crying" out and was I oblivious? That pretty much threw me into a pretty damned black hole, which later resulted in a year of therapy.

I'm familiar with PTSD, personally. No, I've not been medicated nor am I currently nor do I consider that to be an option. That's me, though. But, I know what it means to have night terrors, insomnia, guilt, issues trusting others, etc....

I've also done reading regarding PTSD, the brain, and education. Are you aware that people who have PTSD have brains that have been transfigured? You're probably aware, but everyone might not be. The part of the brain that deals with past memories becomes larger. The part of the brain that deals with acquiring new knowledge, like new words, shrinks. The author was Eric Jensen. He delved into the educational impact for students with PTSD. I felt a lot of guilt at the time. Not only did many of my students, who weren't African American, have PTSD, which had educational consequences, their teacher did, too.

This issue is tricky, because I know there are all sorts of people who have endured centuries of trauma. Have African Americans? Yes. But, it doesn't begin and end with African Americans. Not even close.

Yes, it's important to understand and consider history and the consequences of choices made throughout history. Yes, our experiences, traumas, and inner battles go toward making us the people we become. Yes. Totally and completely.

However, .... This is where it gets tricky. In my mind and heart, mine, I fight certain things and certain labels. Labels like "emotional cripples" .... I will not be defined by that damned closet and a sick and twisted woman's abuse. I will not accept the idea that I'm still locked in that closet, still making choices based on that closet. I will not accept that as my only reality, my only choice. In my darkest moments, I've felt broken. I've even said it aloud. However, I fight those dark moments and that label. I am not broken. That's unacceptable to me. This incident and what has resulted go to making me who I am. I'd be lying if I claimed otherwise. But, .... I don't blame my current choices and circumstances on that teacher and that closet. I'm bigger and stronger than those circumstances. My will, my heart, my courage, etc.... Those things are bigger than the darkness of that time. When the darkness grows, I do everything in my power to shift my focus. It's not easy. It's pretty damned difficult, actually. And, even with something like my grandfather's death, which happened a few weeks ago, I can feel "unsafe" and battle old foes, like insomnia. But, I'll be damned if I let it win. I get up every day with two hours sleep under my belt and go to work and focus on as many good things as possible ... focus on being the good person and teacher I know I am ... focus on the fact that I am safe ... and reach out for help. I know I can make it through ... know, in a couple more days or a couple more weeks, it will pass. I just need to hang on during that time and give my energy and attention to the things I choose ... that's my stubbornness and the people who support me and .... Again, I stress ... that's me ... that's what's in my mind and my heart. By sharing this, I don't mean to negate the experience of others. We're all very different. I share this for one reason ... to point out that there just aren't easy answers to things of this nature. One person's experiences, ideas, etc... might be very different from another persons.

This is a hard topic ... it's real, it's raw, it's worth the time and energy and consideration ... but ... it's hard. There just aren't easy answers.

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "I am not broken. That's unacceptable to me. "

Very few people have experienced having their spirits broken, or witnessed it happening to another. The following may give you a taste of what that is like. I wrote in verse to spare readers the full impact. This is just a taste of what went on at the orphanage over a period of 30 months when Conley Lovelace was in charge.

--quote--
Robby was the last new boy,
having come to the Tarrant County Children’s Home
just days before.


He was pale and quiet, with Cherokee cheeks, a crooked nose,
straight dark hair and a hawk-like stare.
He carried an inhaler for asthma, and his
malnourished arms were so thin his shirt sleeves flapped
like little wings.


Radiators hissed at frosted windows
that morning our matron went after Robby.
He’d wet his bed again and was cringing
near some lockers where her gnarly finger pointed.
"Get over here!" she said.
Robby backed away, pleading,
“No, Mama Grossman!
Please! I didn’t mean to!"


Impaling him with cobra eyes,
she moved to where the board was kept—
a hefty plank of pine, sanded smooth, notched and taped for ease of grip.
It jolted me, that look of terror in his eyes
when Robby saw the board there in her hand.
I couldn’t look away but wanted to,
as he crouched there trying to disappear, screaming,
"No! Mama Grossman!
I won’t do it again!"


There was no way for me to know back then
that sight of the board in Grossman’s hand
had triggered memories of beatings by his mother.
In Robby’s bones, he knew too well
the consequences of a woman’s rage.


We gathered, all thirteen of us, to watch.
"I’ll show you what defying
Muh-E-e can mean!"
She wagged her head and bugged her eyes
as “me” roared up in a warbling growl.
"I tell yuh, now;
the longer yuh take;
the more you’ll get!"
On she came, gesturing, while
from her other hand, cocked against a hip,
hung her wooden tool of rising lust.
And with each step closer Robby backed away,
yet she persisted, ‘til the distance shrank and
she could grab his wrist and pull him clear
for an unimpeded swing.
"Now bend over! Grab
those ankles like I said!"


With flowing tears, the
sixty-pounder’s hands went down and
he took the posture of submission as directed.
The impact buckled his knees, and
he scrambled screaming past her reach, then turned, pleading,
tugging at his rump as if it were on fire.
But like a snarling dog, she said,
“Get back here! Grab those ankles!
Not tomorrow, grab ‘em now!


I could read on Robby’s anguished face
how torn he was between
the matron’s unrelenting power
and his urge to run. But where?
The reason he was there
was no one had a place for him.


When Robby could no longer stall,
he bent his bony frame, and just
as his trembling fingers touched his shoes
she swung the board with everything she had.
Up once more he lurched, dancing, screaming,
pulling at the fabric of his jeans. But
Grossman only glared and spat the sickening command,
“Get back and grab those ankles!”


From where I stood safe behind a table,
the dormitory clock had stopped.
The smell of pee was in the air.
The boys and I could only gape
and hope for this to end.
And yet the gargoyle carousel revolved, and—
again his trembling fingers reached,
again she struck,
again his body jerked and writhed.


Inverted, from between his legs,
Robby watched her backswing and prepared.
A veteran now, he’d worked out
how to time his move and spring erect,
absorbing energy with his baggy pants.
But those self-preserving antics
were like feeding oxygen to fire.


Her face a dripping mask,
she snatched his wrist and held him
as he struggled in an arc around her.
“I’ll show You!” she said,
grabbing his collar she jammed his head between her knees and pinned it there;
then, holding his belt she hoisted his rump and
worked on it like some hate machine gone wild.
The flabby arm attached to her sweat-darkened blue flowered dress
ratcheted up and down,
up and down,
up and down,
while Robby, his upside-down face beet red, flailed
his arms among her granny shoes and the sweat and tear-stained tiles, while
Grossman’s teeth clamped pulsing onto her lower lip,
in rhythm to the impact of the board.
Then finally she staggered, released her quivering knees,
and let the whimpering mass that once was little Robby
tumble to the floor.


He bounced all the way to Vermont,
where in fifty years I found him,
a brush-faced fire-breathing sparrow of a man
with hands like iron.
I held him close, wiped his tears and told him,
“Love you man.”

We reminisced about the Home
and a certain marble game we’d played.
I bought him food and art supplies.
He drew me pictures.


Using Facebook, I found his sisters
and his children, all six of them.
A round of seasons came and went, then
Reverend Abernathy posted Robby had pneumonia,
but before his ashes filled the urn,
he got to see from the lap-held screen of his eldest woman child,
pictures of our Homer clan
and his own progeny.
Indeed, we said our final words,
three thousand miles apart, on Facebook.
Thank you Mister Zuckerberg.


Robby rides my shoulders now,
every day, reminding me
that I still owe him those
four marbles.
# # #

"Robby" was an emotional cripple. His sisters told me about the horrific way his mother treated him because he reminded her of his father. Daily beatings.

He had six children and couldn't be a father to them. To me he's a hero. To his ex he's a worthless so-and-so. If I hadn't been there and witnessed some of what happened to him, I might have agreed with her.

As you say, it gets complicated.

(Robby's grandmother was full-blooded Cherokee.)

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "Shannon wrote: "I am not broken. That's unacceptable to me. "

Very few people have experienced having their spirits broken, or witnessed it happening to another. The following may give you taste. ..."

Very raw .... Again, I'm sorry for your experience.

And, yes, some are broken.

I worked as a social worker for a year prior to getting my first teaching job. One of the children on my caseload was abused by a grandparent, uncle, and traded, by a parent, for drugs and alcohol.

I picked up the case years later. On a good day, s/he could tell you the days of the week. Recite them. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc.... On a bad day, s/he couldn't even do that.

That child was definitely emotionally broken.

My cousin was walking home from school when she was 12. Two men drove by and asked her for directions. They pulled her in their car and, ... very, very bad things happened. After that experience, on a good day, she could carry on a conversation with you, no issues. On a bad day, she'd, in the middle of a conversation, stop talking with you, start walking in circles and, sometimes, would recite the alphabet over and over.

She was emotionally broken, though I'm glad to say she's made great gains.

In truth, you don't need to give me a taste.

Trauma and tragedy are found in every corner of every town and of every city the world over. Some, as a result, are well and truly broken. Some are not.

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "Some, as a result, are well and truly broken. Some are not. "

Yes, and no one has the right to sit in judgement of those who are, for there but for the grace of God go I (or fate or whatever).

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Some, as a result, are well and truly broken. Some are not. "

Yes, and no one has the right to sit in judgement of those who are, for there but for the grace of God go I (or fate o..."

Judgment is a very sketchy thing. Very likely to come back and bite the one making the judgment, in one way or another.

Taking this full circle, is it right for a state to judge one race more capable than another of being able to read or do math? Is it right for a state to have different standards for white, Asian, Hispanic and African American students but leave American Indian students out, or so it would seem at this point? Is it right for a state to have a different mandate than all other states? Should the judgment regarding the standards that need to be met be based on race or something else? How, for example, should children with PTSD figure into this equation? Regardless of color. Children who are being raised in poverty? Regardless of color. And, at that point, can any "judgments" be made about the testing data at all? Further, how will lowering the standard for a certain race help that race to read with greater proficiency? Will it, or will it mask a host of problems?

It's a very complicated issue ... with no easy answers.

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "Taking this full circle, is it right for a state to judge one race more capable than another of being able to read or do math?"

Isn't this what test scores do? The student is judging him/herself by their test performance.

"..for a state to have different standards for white, Asian, Hispanic and African American students but leave American Indian students out"

It depends on what the standards are used for. If it's just tracking performance, I see no problem with it, but Native Americans should have a special category. As should children with PTSD and other special needs, regardless of color. (I didn't know I had a learning disorder, ADD, until I was out of college and well into my working career. I just was told I was a slow reader and had "ants in my pants.")

"Children who are being raised in poverty?"
I'm open to a special category for them, but I'm not sure how it would be monitored without stigmatizing them. I'm not sure poverty alone is a worthy indicator except if a kid is a ward of the court, in foster care, etc. 80 percent of those kids have been severely abused.

"...how will lowering the standard for a certain race help that race to read with greater proficiency?"

You can't address what you can't see. A different standard is okay as long as the end objective is improvement. Some groups will improve faster than others.

Stratifying a population into racial classes is loaded with backlash potential. Any such program needs to be thoroughly explained. Public Q/A meetings, etc.

[J.D.]

Shannon wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Shannon wrote: "If some can overcome, should the horrors of the past be focused upon, or should the focus be on how to succeed today and tomorrow?"

The horrors of the past are inse..."



I'm sorry for your experience. In my book (
I speak of the result of Craig Lewis returning from WWII and has PTSD--but of course it was not a diagnosis then, or even recognized as an ongoing and debilitating condition. Craig has it bad, he was a medic and in the middle of really severe fighting, so he makes terrible decisions, his wife dies, he abuses his children, the younges becomes a multiple personality, and the harrowing adventure is all due to Craig's untreated PTSD. You have brought up a very valid point, PTSD does ravage every family who happens to be in the throws of it, and it not being addressed and treated. There is a dearth of knowledge in this area and the effects on the children. If a main provider of a family is embroiled in the ugliness and horror of PTSD, he/she cannot provide adequately for the family, hence-poverty. It is a cultural travesty. I hope my book will shed some light on the damage PTSD is having on our society./JDIniquitous Connections: : The Dark

[[deleted user]]

Update ....

After, shockingly, not receiving a reply to my email query about American Indians and Florida's new testing mandate, I decided to call. Yup, I called (850) 245-0505. When asked how to direct my call, I said I'd been reading reports regarding Florida's new mandate regarding different testing standards for different races. Specifically, I wanted to know where American Indians fit. (My mistake ... to say different standards for different races. That's a huge no-no within education, which I should have realized ... given my profession.)

Oh, no! No, no, I was told. Emphatically, no! That was just a HUGE misunderstanding within the media. Florida does not have different standards for different students. Uh-huh.

Okay. Rates .... Different races are supposed to test at grade level at different rates, and, I explained, American Indians seem to have been left out. What percentage of American Indians should pass the tests? Where do they fit?

At that point, I was given a woman's name and number and transferred. While waiting, I heard background music and, no joke, a woman's voice saying Florida has the same standards for all students because that's the point of the Common Core.

Uh-huh....

Now, I know you're all going to be shocked when I tell you I got this person's voicemail.

Interestingly enough, though, I've been told I'm like a dog with a bone.

Florida.... I'll keep calling.

Then, I started to think.... Why leave Virginia out?

http://www.npr.org/2012/11/12/1637034...

So, I went to Virginia's DOE site. After all, either Virginia or NPR left out the rate at which American Indians are supposed to pass the tests. Just like Florida. And, ... I know there are American Indians in Virginia. Just like Florida. Hmmm....

Props to Florida; they give their phone number. Virginia? No phone number. Well, I couldn't find it. I did find a mailing address, not even an email address. So, .... I will write a letter. Snail mail, here I come.

I've decided to give both about, well, a week for Florida and two for Virginia. Then, I'm going to contact the governors of each state. Maybe those offices could answer my question.

Though, I will be sure to phrase it as ... what rate do you expect American Indians to pass the tests ... vs. what standard will American Indians be held to ....

Racism in America ...? A group of people who are invisible? No one to speak for them? No "power" as defined by our current societal construct? No fancy dinners and political access? But, hey, the whole invisibility thing makes it as though it's not happening, right? (Clearly, I have a vested interest. Enter sarcasm.)

We'll see. Will be sure to post updates.

[[deleted user]]

FYI--

To date, testing data has been used for various reasons. Most often, its been used to determine lists of failing schools. This is determined, in part, based on the percentages of students who test at and below grade level, proficiency.

So, if one state mandates some students, Hispanic students, for example, will meet proficiency if they test out at 40 or 50 percent and another state mandates that all students will meet proficiency if they test out at 90%, different students, teachers, and schools will be held to a different standard.

You could have a school in Florida that is deemed a success! Woo Hoo! But, if that school was magically moved to another state, it would be deemed a failing school. Hmmmm.... A Hispanic student could test out as meeting proficiency one year in Florida but test out as failing to meet proficiency a year later if s/he moves to a different state. The kicker.... That student could have gone up by a crazy percentage, something like 10%. Amazing! However, if s/he moved to a different state, that progress would not be recognized. S/he would still be testing as below or significantly below proficiency due to the fact that Florida lowered the standard for that particular child's race.

A bit sketchy, yes? If we were to do this thing, shouldn't it be done the same in every state? Shouldn't all races and/or demographics be included? Shouldn't we, as a people, discuss this and decide whether or not we think this is appropriate?

[J.D.]

Ya'know what I think? Well...I wonder...what would happen if, just sayin'...what if ALL students, no matter where they live, no matter what their ethnicity is, what their socioeconomic (I didn't look up the spelling, I'm a writer and usually leave that up to the editor:) ) status...or their demographics, I just wonder what would happen to the total education system in America if ALL students were held to the same standards??? Just askin'...like when I was growing up, an A was an A and an F was an F. It didn't matter where you came from. But then, the children on Native Am. reservations went to schools on the reservation, segregation kept black students in all black schools. Now, I am totally against anyone being put in a failing education system...however, I think our students were educated quite well in the past...we did put a man on the moon and create the A-bomb and the H-bomb, and many other good,bad,and ugly things. My point is that education should be color blind and deaf! If any student is not making the grade, the parents or care takers should be called in to school and together they should tutor the student until they are at or above grade level. Leaving the parents or care takers out of the equation is a BIG, BIG mistake! It seems to me that the parent or care taker speaks the language the student understands, and can decipher. Now, if a qualified Tutor (as in degreed or Life Experience) comprises the tripod, I'm just sayin' that it seems to me the student would be better off, that way there is "ACCOUNTABILITY" all the way around. I'm just sayin', but then I have only raised four kids, who all were overachievers, and school and church were the only things in their lives. Education is the only answer to all the ills that plague our nation. (Well...and morality...and...spirituality. But then, I'm just sayin')

[Monty J]

J.D. wrote: "an A was an A and an F was an F."

Omg! That would mean FOOTBALL PLAYERS would have to study! Heavens!

I don't think anyone's advocating that minority groups be held to different standards grade-wise. The standards we are talking about have to do with academic goal-setting, i.e., the percentage of grade-level norm.

Separately, I think school systems should have a special motivation class for under-achievers. The class would show films highlighting the long term consequences of a lack of education and have heroes who overcome educational obstacles like ADD and PTSD.

One of those films would be Breakfast Club.

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "The standards we are talking about have to do with academic goal-setting, i.e., the percentage of grade-level norm."

No, it's not about grades.

But, interestingly, an African American boy in Florida will be deemed at or above grade level and an African American by in New York will be deemed below grade level. Yet, ... they'll have the same test scores.

Then, you'll have, perhaps, schools in New York with the same demographics and same test scores winding up on the governments failing schools lists, which has consequences. Whereas, schools in Florida with the same demographics and test scores will be deemed adequate.

Finally, many states are moving toward making test scores part of teacher evaluations. You could have a teacher in Florida with all students testing out at 40% and, due to their mandate, that teacher will get good marks on that portion of the evaluation. Of course, a teacher in New York with students of the same demographic and test scores would be docked points on the section of his/her evaluation if they expect their students to be testing out higher.

Just a couple thoughts. There will be consequences, which will not be across the board ... even within the races, etc....

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "Monty J wrote: "The standards we are talking about have to do with academic goal-setting, i.e., the percentage of grade-level norm."

No, it's not about grades.

But, interestingly, an African Amer..."

In a federation such as ours, there will always be differences between states. We'll go nuts trying to micro-manage education on a national basis.

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "In a federation such as ours, there will always be differences between states. We'll go nuts trying to micro-manage education on a national basis. "

Mmmm....

[J.D.]

Monty J wrote: "J.D. wrote: "an A was an A and an F was an F."

Omg! That would mean FOOTBALL PLAYERS would have to study! Heavens!

I don't think anyone's advocating that minority
groups be held to different stan..."



I feel like there is too much trying to equalize students and not enough just accepting them who they are and where they are in their learning continuum. I still think it would be good to tutor the low students to be on the same playing field with the higher testing students until their test scores can be a reflection of how hard they worked to bring themselves up. We "coddle" our students too much. I understand exactly how it is. I home schooled my grandson for a semester. It was hard! He fought the "study period". I found that he could do homework, but had not in regular school been taught HOW TO STUDY. That, to me, is the only thing our students need to change. They want it to come easy. They need to have the desire instilled in them to want to learn just for the priviledge of it. I am reminded of the muslim girl who was shot because she went to school! Our students need to have real life situations in undemocratic nations shown them. I have a burning desire to learn everything I can. I don't know why, or where it came from, but someone had to have encouraged that desire for it to grow. God bless the teachers who 'inspire' their students.

[Monty J]

J.D. wrote: "They want it to come easy. They need to have the desire instilled in them to want to learn just for the priviledge of it."

(A++s for everything you wrote.)

Except there are many who don't "want it to come easy." Some of these kids have anything but an ideal home environment. Many are single parent, if even that. Some are are in group homes or foster care where they are abused and suffer from PTSD. Some suffer from malnutrition (Yes! here in America, that happens!)

These are special needs kids.

In Marine Corps boot camp we had something called "Motivation Platoon" for guys who weren't cutting it. They were shown films and had physical training and special classes.

Kids who have unhealthy environments at home need to be trained on how to manage their lives because home is a war zone, or worse. You can teach your head off to them but they won't improve without augmented curriculum that includes esteem-building and social coping and life management.

The sooner we recognize this and adjust accordingly the sooner the learning gap will narrow.

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "Kids who have unhealthy environments at home need to be trained on how to manage their lives because home is a war zone, or worse. You can teach your head off to them but they won't improve without augmented curriculum that includes esteem-building and social coping and life management.

The sooner we recognize this and adjust accordingly the sooner the learning gap will narrow"

I agree regarding much of this. Though, ... I think for things to change people need to change the home environment. When are we going to deal with that as a society? Of course, that's a hard thing to deal with. Further, I don't know, especially if we're dealing with children who still need to go home at night, how we'll adjust accordingly.

[Monty J]

Shannon wrote: "...for things to change people need to change the home environment."

In extreme cases, social services will remove the child to foster care temporarily and provide 360-degree family counseling with the intent of reuniting the family. But half the time this doesn't work because it's too expensive. The parents are too far gone to turn them around in less than six months. Sometimes they're dealing with centuries of ingrained behavior patterns. Or the a drug culture which can permanently rearrange molecules in the brain. You might as well be talking to oatmeal mush.

We have to put our trust in the child to self-emancipate, to take charge of his/er life. I know this because I did it. If I can, so can others. I did it instinctively, without any guidance or outer support. I was lucky.

These kids can go miles on just knowing that somebody gives enough of a hoot to listen to them. For the most part the parents are a lost cause. They've had their chance and blew it. I know that sounds brutal. It's not always the case, but it's real. Watch Precious or The Antwone Fisher Story or read Finding Fish the book it's based on.

[Lit Bug (Foram)]

Monty J wrote: "Shannon wrote: "...for things to change people need to change the home environment."

In extreme cases, social services will remove the child to foster care temporarily and provide 360-degree famil..."

Are 'Precious' and 'Antwone Fisher Story' movies?

[Monty J]

Lit Bug wrote: "Are 'Precious' and 'Antwone Fisher Story' movies? "

Yes. Precious won at least one Academy Award. "The Antwone Fisher Story was produced, directed and starred in by Denzel Washington. Precious is based on Push by Saffire.

[Shelley]

Is there a cat in the book named Rose?

I was just told about a terrible high school teacher whose only question about TKM to his students was to identify that cat.

Shelley
Rain, A Dust Bowl Story
http://dustbowlstory.wordpress.com

[Monty J]

Grag wrote: "The minimum wage in the USA is cheaper than escalating wages in China. I think you need another peg to hang your hat. "

I'm confused. I can't even find this post.

[Wamble]

Little side note "To Kill A Mockingbird", The toe head boy would live next door was actually her neighbor who also became a write, Truman Capote, also the other neighbor kid was Rob McNeal, also a writer.

[Wamble]

Shannon wrote: "Monty J wrote: "Poverty gets treated as scapegoat to avoid confronting the truth and guilt of white, particularly Anglo, exploitation. "

Ummmm.... Don't forget....

There are insanely poor white ..."
Not all of us that grew up in the South in poverty dropped out or couldn't learn. But if you don't believe poverty has an effect on learning then go to any Reservation or really work with people who are not sure where the next meal is going to come from. There many great writers who grew up in the south that wrote about poverty, mostly white (William Faulkner, Wheaty,
James Larkin Pearson,Tennesses Williams and several others) and yes it took someone in a time that black people were still not considered as real people.

[Wamble]

Shannon wrote: "Monty J wrote: "No, no, no, no no! They can't have separate tests! The tests must be standard throughout. The percentage achievement goals can be stratified, but NOT the tests, for the reasons you ..."

Native American children don't fit in. You have to contact US Department of Education on that one. Test are a joke some very bright people can not do well on test, I love test and have always done very well on them, but I have a mind for test. I have seen several of those test (Texas and Florida) They are the Bush test and they will be used in New Mexico. The biggest problem with these test is that is all the teachers will teach, that is not real education. Real education is to teach people how to learn and think. Ask anyone that has become a doctor, they will tell you that is one of the things they look at when you go to med school is your ability to learn not what you know.

[Lit Bug (Foram)]

I don't think this book was trying to brainwash people or reinforce negative stereotypes - it was only trying to depict what nobody wanted to believe themselves - that there can be white people behaving like trash, and there can be black people who are hard-working, innocent and mind their own business. It didn't try to say that all blacks were good, all whites were demented. It was trying to rise above stereotypes. And all the while, the author didn't lose pity for Bob Ewell too. Didn't Atticus see his point of view too, though he didn't justify it? There has always been a section of people in every country that has tried hard to push down the others by reinforcing stereotypes, and has succeeded in doing so. People are people, after all, as Atticus said. Some fit perfectly in their stereotypes, and some do not fit even an inch. Black or white makes no difference.

[Wamble]

Not it doesn't matter about color but it matters how people look at those stereotypes, it seems on the whole that is what most people see, because it has been taught to them. The only way to bust stereotypes is never to listen to your elders and to live in a world that is color blind...as you and others point out its Blacks and Whites, some forget that we Native People are human or count, and yes there those of us that happen to be Asian, read some of the things that happen in Chinese families, Korean communities, Japanese communities. It is not just a black and white thing. Most Native people fear Whites and Blacks equally they both tried to kill us off.

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "The author of this book has grown rich brainwashing schoolchildren and simple adults with this trash. Harper Lee even had the temerity to exploit the voice of a child to inculcate her poison into r..."

Wow....

What part of the novel is misrepresented?

The idea that an African American man would be put on trial for no reason other than the color of his skin.

Well, actually, come to think of it, you're right. Tom Robinson had a great lawyer who gave Tom great legal representation. In reality, African American men were given lawyers who were drunkards and showed up to court drunk or who weren't practiced in the law required.

Ever heard of the Scottsboro boys' case.

You have the right to an opinion and free speech rights. I supposed you also have the right to hypocrisy. Misrepresenting the truth, the very thing you accuse Lee of doing.

[[deleted user]]

Shelley wrote: "Is there a cat in the book named Rose?

I was just told about a terrible high school teacher whose only question about TKM to his students was to identify that cat.

Shelley
Rain, A Dust Bowl Story..."

Well, the teacher in this instance is ... pick an adjective.

Uncle Jack's cat is, I believe, is named Rose Aylmer ... though I might be wrong about the Aylmer part.

When Uncle Jack comes for Christmas, he shows Jem and Scout a picture of her. Scout says, if I remember correctly, that she's getting fat. She also says Uncle Jack says Rose is the only woman he can put up with on a regular basis.

[[deleted user]]

Wamble wrote: "Native American children don't fit in."

I know .... :(

Perhaps I will contact the US Dept. of Ed. Thanks for the thought.

[[deleted user]]

Wamble wrote: "Not it doesn't matter about color but it matters how people look at those stereotypes"

Yes.... Further, that's one of the themes Lee explores in the novel. The idea that you need to go beyond the stereotype and judging people based on that and the idea of getting in someone's skin and crawling around in it. It's one of the reasons I love the book as much as I do.

[[deleted user]]

Shelley wrote: "Is there a cat in the book named Rose?

I was just told about a terrible high school teacher whose only question about TKM to his students was to identify that cat.

Shelley
Rain, A Dust Bowl Story..."

Yup. Rose Aylmer. Perhaps after the poem ...

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/pr...

[Lit Bug (Foram)]

I focused on black and white in context of the novel, otherwise I do know what it is to be discriminated against, if you are non-white, because it is an open secret that whites have for long dominated and harassed everyone non-white. They first drove away the native Americans, then brought blacks as slaves, and then other immigrants from different parts of the world. Just that I was trying to stick to the novel.

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "You don't make valid points by saying 'don't' a lot. "

Actually, ... Grag, I disagree.

Many valid points have been made by saying "don't" and the like.

Don't judge people based on the color of their skin?

Don't infringe upon the rights of others?


Out of curiosity.... What valid point were you trying to make earlier? That the civil rights movement never should have happened?

Is that the point you were trying to make? If so, out of curiosity, what, in your mind, leads you to believe it's a valid point?

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Grag wrote: "You don't make valid points by saying 'don't' a lot. "

Actually, ... Grag, I disagree.

Many valid points have been made by saying "don't" and the like.

Don't judge p..."


Really...?

Are you saying you're the type of human being who needs to be convinced that we shouldn't judge people based on skin color or that we shouldn't infringe upon the rights of others?

Is that really who you are?

Okay, ... Grag ...

Let's start with the fact that all people, of all colors, are people. We're human beings. The same species. We have minds and hearts. Families. We're capable of thought and love.

Given that, in order to be humane, we no longer, in my country, legally discriminate against people due to the color of their skin. Further, we continue to make strides in not infringing upon the rights of others.

An attentive reading of your text points at your possibly being a racist. You've not clarified or dissuaded. Your choice. It's my choice to say ... you have a right to your opinion and the right to say what you want ... well, in some countries ... but ....

I'm not going to sit in silence and say nothing when faced with blatantly racist comments.

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "An attentive reading of your post points to your being a brainwashed simpleton. "

That ...

Or ...

It shows that regardless of a sheet or other disguise ... I know you for who you are ...

Or ...

It shows me to be a woman of Celtic and Native American descent, not quite white, therefore ....

[Monty J]

Grag wrote: "An attentive reading of your post points to your being a brainwashed simpleton."

Okay guys, play nice. No name-calling or personal insults. (U2 Shannon.)

We're all a big family. Pretend you're siblings. No, wait, I mean pretend you're guests in each other's houses.

[Monty J]

Grag wrote: "Being nice is very boring. And bland."

You're speaking to the choir. But I've learned that it's in exploring our differences that new truths are discovered. Sometimes amazing to all parties. But personal attacks can get out of hand and absorb valuable energy that might otherwise be productive. It's kind of like gold mining. You never know what's going to turn up in the next shovel of sand.

[Lit Bug (Foram)]

I don't get what problem there is if an opinion begins with the word 'don't'. Stereotype is one story among many that pretends to be the only story, which is why it is wrong. It assumes that ever black or white or native American or Asian or whatever one belongs to is a stereotype that cannot go beyond its stereotype fixed nature, it is unchangeable - which is utterly falsehood. No two neighbours even are alike. Not even siblings.

This book challenges stereotypes, shows despicable traits in the 'civilized, white' people, 'humanity' in the 'uncouth, blacks', and also goodness in whites like Atticus & family and so on. It shows there is nothing like inherent goodness or maliciousness, that it comes from a numerous factors apart from your family origins or family ethics - such as environment, poverty, class-consciousness, one's own childhood, one's neighbors and what not...

There are layers of goodness and vileness in everyone, in different degrees, and stereotypes do apply to many people, but they also do NOT apply to many people as well. It merely exhorts us to check for ourselves before declaring someone good or bad. Why is it difficult to get something as simple as this?

In the context of the novel, it applies to blacks and whites. Otherwise, this is applicable to every country, every ethnicity because everywhere in the world there have been different tribes trying to force themselves on others and push the others into margins by ideological and legal means.

[[deleted user]]

Monty J wrote: "You're speaking to the choir. But I've learned that it's in exploring our differences that new truths are discovered.."

Out of curiosity, what truth can be discovered from exploring the following in silence ....

"The book is simply a vehicle for the civil rights movement and part of the chicanery that has led to the criminal and socially unstable quagmire that the USA is today."

Though, if you'd like to explore that in silence, Monty J, that is your choice. It's not mine.

[[deleted user]]

"Boston ... horrible.

I remember, when 9/11 went down, my reaction was, "Well, I've had it with humanity."

But I was wrong. I don't know what's going to be revealed to be behind all of this mayhem. One human insect or a poisonous mass of broken sociopaths.

But here's what I DO know. If it's one person or a HUNDRED people, that number is not even a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of the population on this planet. You watch the videos of the carnage and there are people running TOWARDS the destruction to help out. (Thanks FAKE Gallery founder and owner Paul Kozlowski for pointing this out to me). This is a giant planet and we're lucky to live on it but there are prices and penalties incurred for the daily miracle of existence. One of them is, every once in awhile, the wiring of a tiny sliver of the species gets snarled and they're pointed towards darkness.

But the vast majority stands against that darkness and, like white blood cells attacking a virus, they dilute and weaken and eventually wash away the evil doers and, more importantly, the damage they wreak. This is beyond religion or creed or nation. We would not be here if humanity were inherently evil. We'd have eaten ourselves alive long ago.

So when you spot violence, or bigotry, or intolerance or fear or just garden-variety misogyny, hatred or ignorance, just look it in the eye and think, 'The good outnumber you, and we always will.'"

-Patton Oswalt

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "Is misogyny bad?"

Are you by chance playing a game here, ... Grag?

At any rate, ....

Dictionaries define "misogyny" as the hatred of women.

I guess it would depend on one's worldview, wouldn't it?

Yes, I consider the hatred of women to be bad.

Do you consider it to be bad?

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "Are you sexy?"



Giving Dylan and his classmates a possible example versus just a definition, I see.

[[deleted user]]

Grag wrote: "So you aren't? That must be hard for you."

Aren't? Willing to define myself by such terms? Not so much.

Tell me, though.

Is it hard for you? Knowing that you're outnumbered.... At least on GR, if not in the world at large.

[J.D.]

Errr, changing the subject here, my thoughts about the 'Boston Massacre 2.0' is that a human being or beings did a heinous thing to innocent other human beings. Why? #1: He/she/they wanted to make a splash on live tv and then sit and watch the carnage of what they did and laugh. #2: H/s/t;(otherwise known here going forward as "it") was/were terriosts bent on disrupting the Marathon for some ? reason--possibly a disgruntled sociopath. #3: 'It' is part of an extremist group who will eventually let it be known and make known what statement 'it' was trying to make. #4: 'It' might have wanted to show that bombs can cause much more damage to the human body than a gun does, even an assualt rifle with several magazines handy. #4: 'It' is possessed by Satan and is doing his bidding.
Now, I truly believe Satan, otherwise known as Lucifer, the devil, etc. can and will wreak havoc on mankind as the years roll on toward the time of the Second Coming. I also believe that good people, innocently going about life and enjoying the liberties afforded us by our Constitution is offensive to him, and he desperately wants those liberties taken away. When they are by the "Beast out of the Sea" he will have effected his dream of conquering humanity ond overturning the redemptive process Christ died for. Satan is "a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour", he also roams the earth to find great and small people to manipulate toward his dispicable goal.
Finally, I think that it is incumbent on all people everywhere, and especially people of God given liberties, christians, and those who revere God to be ready, have our lives in order, in the order of priorities. We must live each day, loving our families, friends, and fellowman as if there will be no tomorrow. Because we are not promised that tomorrow will come. We are promised that our lives are "as a flash in a pan". Love is the only answer to what ails any peoples. Perfect love drives out fear.(I don't know the scripture ref.) In my book, Iniquitous Connections: The Dark, I speak of the evil that lurks in the darkness. But, on the back of the cover of the book, I quote: "God is light, in him there is no darkness at all."-I John 1:3b I believe this with all my heart.
So, the bomber has not won anything! Life goes on, the anguished will be comforted and the damaged flesh will heal. But love must be in constant supply!--JD/aka Janet

[[deleted user]]

J.D. wrote: "Errr, changing the subject here, my thoughts about the 'Boston Massacre 2.0' is that a human being or beings did a heinous thing to innocent other human beings. Why? #1: He/she/they wanted to make ..."

Taking #2 first ....

Yesterday was Patriot's Day, commemorating the Battles of Lexington and Concord and the colonists first battles in the war for freedom.

In addition, yesterday, Israel commemorated the anniversary of their independence.

Personally, knowing what I know about the Middle East, this has my antenna up. I don't believe in coincidence. Coincidences happen, though rarely.

Terrorists of Middle Eastern descent have spoken out against America's freedoms, for years. And, regardless of everything else, ... Bush, wars, female troops in Saudi Arabia driving vehicles or flying planes, oil, etc... there will always be Israel. We voted for Israel's independence and we support Israel.

So, ....