Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Harry Potter, #7) Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows discussion

Dumbledore and Sirius (Nevermind , I found the answer)

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Nichola Faith wrote: "James and Lily Potter told everyone that Sirius Black was their Secret Keeper. Nobody other than Lily, James , Sirius and Peter knew who the real Secret Keeper was. So when Peter betrays the Potter..."

I'm not sure what made you think everyone knew Sirius was the secret keeper? As far as I know only the Marauders, Lilly and Dumbledor knew Sirius was the secret keeper (or so they thought.) Hagrid had no reason to mistrust him and given Dumbledor's nature he was hardly going to tell Hagrid about Sirius' 'betrayal.' There were more pressing matters to deal with like Harry's life. Also, I may have missed something but I don't think Sirius was a decoy, I only remember the book saying the Potters changed their mind (I may be wrong it's been a while.)

To my knowledge nobody but Sirius knew they had changed their mind, who would believe him when he tried to convince them that he was innocent? By the time he had sought revenge on Wormtail nobody could back up his story because everyone who knew Sirius wasn't the secret keeper was dead (or so they thought.)

Cara Peter Pettrigrew was their Secret Keeper; that's how Lily and James died. The whole 'Sirius killed Pettrigrew' thing didn't happen until afterwards.

message 3: by Nichola (last edited Mar 09, 2013 02:07PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nichola I'm not sure we're singing from the same Hymn sheet. Who says Dumbledore wasn't surprised? It wouldn't really be the right place for Dumbledor to address it though. He had Harry's Life to sort out and as far as he was concerned the Ministry was searching for Sirius and would have him rounded up in no time. It's possible by the time Hagrid saw Dumbledore, Sirius had already been arrested (see quote below) in which case it's a moot point.

"“I met him!” growled Hagrid. “I musta bin the last ter see him before he killed all them people! It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an’ James’s house after they was killed! Jus’ got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead, an’ his parents dead … an’ Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin’ motorbike he used ter ride. Never occurred ter me what he was doin’ there. I didn’ know he’d bin Lily an’ James’s Secret-Keeper. Thought he’d jus’ heard the news o’ You-Know-Who’s attack an’ come ter see what he could do. White an’ shakin’, he was. An’ yeh know what I did? I COMFORTED THE MURDERIN’ TRAITOR!” Hagrid roared.

“Hagrid, please!” said Professor McGonagall. “Keep your voice down!”

“How was I ter know he wasn’ upset abou’ Lily an’ James? It was You-Know-Who he cared abou’! An’ then he says, ‘Give Harry ter me, Hagrid, I’m his godfather, I’ll look after him —’ Ha! But I’d had me orders from Dumbledore, an’ I told Black no, Dumbledore said Harry was ter go ter his aunt an’ uncle’s. Black argued, but in the end he gave in. Told me ter take his motorbike ter get Harry there. ‘I won’t need it anymore,’ he says.

“I shoulda known there was somethin’ fishy goin’ on then. He loved that motorbike, what was he givin’ it ter me for? Why wouldn’ he need it anymore? Fact was, it was too easy ter trace. Dumbledore knew he’d bin the Potters’ Secret-Keeper. Black knew he was goin’ ter have ter run fer it that night, knew it was a matter o’ hours before the Ministry was after him."


I believe from there Sirius went to kill Wormtail and was arrested on scene.

message 4: by Nichola (last edited Mar 09, 2013 03:41PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nichola The Potters were killed at Midnight, word had to get out about their deaths, Dumbledore had to give Hagrid orders and he had to travel to Godrics Hollow. I have no idea how far that was from Hogwarts but Hagrid couldn't disapparate so he had to travel on some form of transport.

You said yourself it took Hagrid a long time to get to the Dursleys, so much so, Dumbledore had to use his 'put outer' for the street lamps, Vernon had seen Wizards on the street and McGonagall had been watching the Dursleys 'all day' (remember Vernon went out to work and saw a cat 'reading' the street sign, same cat there when he got home) so we know at least a full working day has passed in between Dumbledore sending out orders for Hagrid to collect Harry and Hagrid arriving at the Dursleys. (Otherwise why was McGonagall watching the Dursleys all day?)

This left a full day for Sirius to find Wormtail and 'kill him,' Sirius was arrested at the scene as attested to by Cornelius Fudge who claims to have seen Sirius at the scene of the crime laughing. How was it impossible for him to be in prison already? He was sent to prison without trial. Whatever Hagrid was doing may have kept him busy enough to keep the news of Blacks arrest from him. Either way, I don't see this as a hole in the plot but I do think, no matter what anyone suggests, you will see it as such :(

Your list of events did happen, if you look into the books well enough, Sirius went to check on Pettigrew and got suspicious when he wasn't in his hiding place. He then went to check on the Potters where he found Hagrid with Harry, handed over his bike then went to find Pettigrew. It still leaves a full 12 hours for him to find Pettigrew and be arrested in full view of loads of muggles.

As for Dumbledore not going himself, he was the most powerful Wizard of the time and the leader of the order of the Phoenix, he was likely trying to find out what had happened to Voldemort as well as organise somewhere to live for Harry. :)

Edit: 'Everyone' knew that Sirius was the secret keeper at the beginning of book 3 because he had already gone to prison for it. They wouldn't have known prior to im being incarcerated.

Nichola If you're not going to read another persons comments properly there's no point in anyone answering.

Nichola Who said I was mad? I pointed out that if you don't read comments properly there's no point in people replying. I know from the first sentence that you didn't read it properly because you claim I said something which I didnt actually say. Best of luck with your theories but please stop making assumptions about my mood from a few written words.

Lily Wait i thought that Sirius was the secret keeper thing and pettigrew knew and told the dark lord. Then he like murdered twelve people and pretended to b dead so the blame would go on sirus. So basically what i am trying to conclude is that things that pettigrew did sirius was blammed for.

Carina I haven't read the boooks for years and do not have them in front of me, but I took it that it wasn't safe for Hagrid to travel during the day with Harry due to both the means of transport and also the fact that the Death Eaters would have been furious and wanting to kill him for destroying thier master.

If Sirius was arrested the day of the celebrations (I don't think the books ever say if that is correct or not?) then how would McGonagall know as she was sat ouside Privet Drive all day with no knowledge of events apart from Voldemort is dead and what little was on the Muggle news.

As for Hagrid telling Dumbledore about Sirius, if the arrest happened that day then Dumbledore already knew that (as he didn't arrive at Privet Drive until just before Hagrid) so wouldn't necessarily be surprised - also Dumbledore was a master schemer I wouldn't be surprised if he was also adept at acting when he had too.

On the whole as plot holes go it isn't the worst one I have ever seen :)

Jeni Sirius was the secret keeper. At the last moment, they made Peter their secret keeper as well and Peter betrayed them. (You don't have to have just one, because Number 12 Grimmauld Place has many secret keepers. We all know that the more that know, the less likely it is to keep a secret, though.) Dumbledore may have even been one, as well, but he never says and as we know, he's quite good at deducing. I'm sure he knew that Sirius, Peter, and Remus were the most likely to be secret keepers.

As Nichola said, Sirius handed off his bike to Hagrid to see Harry safe and went after Peter. While Hagrid was taking Harry to Dumbledore, Peter was cornered by Sirius and faked his death, causing Sirius to be implicated, arrested, and incarcerated. There is no law in the wizarding world that JKR created that says a trial is necessary. Anyone can be chucked into Azkaban by the Minister of Magic for whatever reason he/she deems fit.

Contrary to popular belief, JKR did indeed plot out the entire series before writing page one. She developed the story arcs, subplots, characterizations, and wrote the end before she started anything. I've yet to find a plot hole and this isn't one.

And before anyone mentions time-turners, I would point out that it was prudent of Dumbledore to keep James and Lily dead so that Harry could one day kill Voldemort, otherwise, Tom Riddle's reign of terror would have gone on forever.

Bawan I love both not in a gay way

message 11: by Lily (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lily Faith wrote: "Bawan wrote: "I love both not in a gay way"

What is with the desperate need to add NO HOMO to end of all sentences that imply affection for someone of your own gender people! Geez. No one will cal..."

it's true.

Mrunalini Raman Faith wrote: "That's one of my problems , Dumbledore had to have known that Sirius was the Secret Keeper , why doesn't he react at all when Hagrid tells him he just saw Sirius , why isn't he surprised when he le..."

Wormtail, I mean Peter was the Potters' secret keeper. And he was a spy to Voldemort. So he told Voldemort directly about the Potters' residence, which means the death eaters didnt have to follow around sirius to find out the potters' residence. Thus, Sirius was not tailed like he expected and it was an easy catch for Voldemort with Peter on his side.

message 13: by [deleted user] (new)

Faith wrote: "Bawan wrote: "I love both not in a gay way"

What is with the desperate need to add NO HOMO to end of all sentences that imply affection for someone of your own gender people! Geez. No one will cal..."

You told him! On a related note, Dumbledore died from AIDS. It was a nifty analogy: Dumbledore's rooting around in the wrong hole, or fingering the wrong ring, rather. :D

message 14: by [deleted user] (new)

Not altogether sure as regards the OP - can't quite remember. I was just drawn here in thinking there might've been a Sirius/Dumbledore hookup that I'd missed, and my mind stayed on the same track throughout my reading the thread, my apologies. :3

message 15: by [deleted user] (new)

This website will tell you


message 16: by Sheila (last edited Aug 08, 2014 05:58PM) (new)

Sheila I just read this entire feed and Faith, you are right. I had the same question. Dumbledore and McGonagall should have reacted much differently when Hagrid said Sirius's name - either they both knew he had been arrested, OR Dumbledore, at least, thought that Sirius had betrayed the Potters at that point. So they would have had some sort of reaction to hearing his name. A lot of people's responses don't actually address your question (especially Nichola - I don't know what his problem was), so I just want to reassure you that you are right! Most likely JKR hadn't thought that far ahead; she might have known that Sirius Black would play a role in a later book, but hadn't mapped out the timeline yet and so couldn't know that this would end up not making sense.

message 17: by Sheila (new)

Sheila I'm going to posit a back story for everything that happened that day that will hopefully tie everything together for our peace of mind.

Halloween night:
-Voldemort kills James and Lily. His curse on Harry backfires and he is "ripped from his body."
-Dumbledore had some sort of charm on the house to find out if anything happens to the Potters (JKR in Pottercast interview). When he learns something has happened, his first priority is to figure out what happened to Voldemort. So he dispatches Hagrid to get Harry and keep him safe until further instructions (he does not yet know where he is going to bring Harry or what happened). Dumbledore is not yet certain that Sirius Black betrayed the Potters, and it is not at the forefront of his mind - his first priority is figuring out if Voldemort is truly gone and what happened to him.
-Hagrid gets Harry, comforts Sirius, and borrows his bike.

Through the night:
-Hagrid holds on to Harry and keeps him safe and hidden as per Dumbledore's instructions.
-Sirius is out looking for Peter Pettigrew to get revenge.
-Dumbledore spends the day doing some good, hard thinking / magic / detective work. He somehow, through his brilliance and his spies, realizes what happened: Lily's love saved Harry and rebounded Voldemort's curse on himself, but Voldemort is somehow still holding on to life. Dumbledore, knowing that Harry is in danger, decides to invoke ancient magic and bring Harry to the Dursleys. He sends word to Hagrid to bring Harry to 4 Privet Drive that night.

November 1st:
-Hagrid tells McGonagall where he will meet Dumbledore. She goes to spy on the family there.
-Dumbledore spends the day doing some fancy spells to protect Harry and writing the letter to Petunia.
-Hagrid keeps Harry safe with him until nightfall, and then flies Sirius's bike to Privet Drive.
-The world celebrates the demise of Voldemort. Dumbledore passes several parties on his way to Privet Drive.

That Night:
-Dumbledore, McGonagall, and Hagrid leave Harry with the Dursleys.
-Dumbledore hears Hagrid say Sirius's name and is instantly on the alert. He asks Hagrid if there were any problems, suddenly remembering that Sirius was Secret-Keeper (Sorcerer's Stone: Dumbledore: "Where did you get that motorcycle?" Hagrid: Borrowed it, Professor Dumbledore, sir. Young Sirius Black lent it to me. I've got him, sir." Dumbledore, suddenly wary: "No problems, were there?") Still unsure of what happened, he decides he is going to go find Sirius and find out. He doesn't say anything to the other two, though, because he doesn't want to point fingers until he is sure.

November 2nd:
-After doing some more detective work, Dumbledore is sure that the Secret-Keeper divulged the information to Voldemort. He goes straight to the Ministry of Magic after this and tells them that he thinks Black sold his friends out: (Prisoner of Azkaban: "I myself gave evidence to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper.") He also tells McGonagall at this point.
-The Ministry begins to look for Black.
-Black, in the meantime, is looking for Pettigrew.
-Fudge shows up on the scene just as Pettigrew blows up the street. Sirius, almost crazy with grief and anger, begins to laugh at the fact that his weak, silly friend actually ended up screwing them all. Fudge and the Ministry think he's laughing at all the murders he just committed, and put him in Azkaban.

So maybe Dumbledore DID react to Sirius's name, just not outwardly.

message 18: by Ejd (new)

Ejd Green I'm going to agree completely with the person above who pointed out that Sirius had already been arrested by the time D, M & H dropped Harry off at the Dursleys. Clearly a day passes between the Potters' deaths and Harry's arrival at the Dursleys, as McGonagall goes to the Dursleys and stays there all day while Vernon's at work hearing about Voldemort's downfall. In Prisoner of Azkaban Rosmerta talks about how the Ministry arrested Sirius the next day after Hagrid met him. That's proof positive that Sirius was arrested about 12 hours before Harry arrived at the Dursleys. McGonagall and Hagrid had been occupied all day waiting for Harry and guarding him respectively, so they don't know Sirius has been arrested; Dumbledore, who has had a less restricted day, knows and therefore doesn't feel the need to warn Hagrid not to reconnect with Sirius.

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