Self-published sci-fi/fantasy. (Help!)

[Gene]

Hypothetical situation:

You as a reader have become familiar with an online site maintained by the author, such as Jess Nevins' VICTORIANA.

Then you read somewhere, perhaps on Goodreads, that Jess Nevins has written a novel.

Granting that you'll still be influenced in your decision to buy by any reviews or enticing content, do you think that having enjoyed Nevins' nonfiction might predispose you into trying his fiction?

[[deleted user]]

Gene wrote: "Hypothetical situation:..."

Hypothetically, if a SF/F-oriented website I followed promoted a debut SF/F book by the site's author (or one of its regular contributors), I think I would expect it to dangle a sample chapter in front of me, and just because I was a regular reader of the site I would try it out. That's the advantage the author has having a regular readership: loyalty and attention. After that, it depends how I like the first chapter...

[Sabrina]

M.M. wrote: A valid point. I don't know about science fiction, but I suppose I've not been very lucky in finding an interesting and varied range of traditionally published fantasy over the past ten to fifteen years. I enjoyed most of what I read, but after a while, most of them seemed to follow similar threads and plots. But,of course, that's just my opinion and my own personal experience. There were times I almost gave up trying to find a new and interesting fantasy series or book.

The same thing happened to me, and actually turned me off to SF/F for quite a long time. I was so desperate for something different that I started writing my own stuff.

[J.D.]

Gene wrote: "What if any types of "publicity" can persuade readers here to buy indie books?"

Good reviews and ratings from friends and other group members who share similar tastes are always helpful. This is one of the great things about Goodreads. If there is a book I'm curious about, Indie or not, I can go to the group bookshelf here, search for that book, and even if it isn't on any of the group shelves, if any members who make their shelves public have added it, rated it, or reviewed it, I can see that information there. If the group sentiment is generally positive, that's one more point in its favor.

[John]

"a Hugo, Nebula, Locus, BSFA, Campbell, Clarke, Aurora, or Aurialis, Ditmar or PK Dick award nomination wouldn't hurt :)"

That's an interesting point. Could an indie author actually get nominated for one?

[John]

" I have read some excellent stories which simply would not be out there without self publishing. "

Look at the sheer amount of short stories that get trunked each year. Asimov's and Clarke's World can only publish X amount, and they'll be the first to say that they agonize about rejecting some stuff because the hopper is full for the publication.

[[deleted user]]

John wrote: ""a Hugo, Nebula, Locus, BSFA, Campbell, Clarke, Aurora, or Aurialis, Ditmar or PK Dick award nomination wouldn't hurt :)"

That's an interesting point. Could an indie author actually get nominated for one?"

Well, I don't think "indie" isn't the same as "self published". E.g., in 2010 The Windup Girl (Night Shade Books, an indie publisher) was not only nominated but won the Hugo, Nebula, and Campbell awards for Best Novel, and the Locus Award for Best First Novel. So I'm going to go with a "yes".

[John]

If that wasn't just a corporation branding itself as "indie" to take advantage of the marketing value of the word.

Look at the fight between the SFWA and Night Shade Books a mere year later. It became a big brawl over contracts and legalities and bankruptcy and removing Night Shade as a "Qualified Market". I think that really means qualified publisher. Is that indie? I'm not so sure.

What's scary is that had "The Windup Girl" come along a year later, we might not have known about it.

God, I sound like Orson Welles. "It's the system! Where's my Paul Masson and frozen peas . . . "

[Angie]

Sorry I might sound a bit thick' but what do you mean when you say 'qualified publisher'

[John]

The SFWA has a list of qualifying professional markets that they will accept members from. Its really just a list of publishers.

[[deleted user]]

John wrote: "If that wasn't just a corporation branding itself as "indie" to take advantage of the marketing value of the word...."

I don't think you can redefine "independent publisher" to suit your narrative.

Angie wrote: "Sorry I might sound a bit thick' but what do you mean when you say 'qualified publisher'"

The SFWA (Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America) is best known to fans as the people who give out the Nebula awards. They are a trade group / professional organization for writers; to become a full member, you must've made a "sale" to one of their Qualified Markets, which includes lots of magazines as well as book publishers.

They scrutinize their "qualified markets" for contract terms and prompt payment to authors and other criteria. Earlier this year they briefly delisted Night Shade Books over slow and non-payment to authors (more info). Getting de-listed is a bit like getting a black mark with the Better Business Bureau.

[[deleted user]]

"indies" have been getting Hugos for years..."Best Fan Writer", "Best Fanzine", "Best Semi-Prozine"...

[Andy]

I've been guilty over the last few years of ignoring the self published sci-fi author, mainly due to a combination of ignorance and snobbery. Thanks to the likes of Goodreads and the rise of the e-book, I'm discovering some amazing stories from some truly fertile minds.

It's also given me the courage to put my ideas to paper and write my first novel, something I would never have attempted by going through the traditional publishing route.

[Eliza]

The label 'indie' really depends on why the author chose that route. An author with a good reason and an author who couldn't be bothered with interacting or waiting for the system are as different as night and day. Good self publishing is a lot harder than traditional publishing. Self publishing will consume your life.

Good reasons to self-publish include niche markets, experimental genres, books that defy typical conventions, atypical lengths, or perhaps an author who's multimedia and art savvy who wants an artisan book.

They say cream will rise to the top, and I hope that they're right. Goodreads and places like it may be the only way to really spread the word about new stories. The problem is that there are just so many. I worry that there are good books out there who will never surface.

[[deleted user]]

back in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s entire forests were leveled to make pulp paper for the scads of pulp magazines being printed...all kinds, not just SF...alot of it was pure crap, but alot of good stuff was published. with the advent of the ebook the pulp days are here again. im just waiting for someone to get wise , start digging thru all the true indy stuff, and start pubing a Best of Indy SF of the Year...

[Eliza]

Spooky1947 wrote: "back in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s entire forests were leveled to make pulp paper for the scads of pulp magazines being printed...all kinds, not just SF...alot of it was pure crap, but alot of good st..."

That's actually not a bad idea... but it would require a lot of time by whoever ran it, and people would have to know where to send it, with the understanding that it might not get read if it doesn't suit the taste of whoever was running the project.

Doesn't sound like a one-man operation. ... I might be interested in starting something like that, though, for the fantasy side of speculative fiction.

[[deleted user]]

just run it like the 'slush pile' at the mags...you know how that works, right?

[Eliza]

Spooky1947 wrote: "just run it like the 'slush pile' at the mags...you know how that works, right?"

I do. And I actually ran one as a teenager. I'd just discovered fanfiction... I started pulling out the decent stuff. It was actually a very popular site for a while.

I'd wonder if it would be hard to develop a following... but the more I think about it, it seems like a service more than just indie writers would like.

[Thomas]

Eliza wrote: "The label 'indie' really depends on why the author chose that route. An author with a good reason and an author who couldn't be bothered with interacting or waiting for the system are as different ..."

I chose self-publishing simply because I wanted to write the story I saw fit. I got rejected simply because I introduced my villain first. That didn't fly well with me.

Also, you have to understand a bit of my background: I came from screenwriting first and trying to break into the movie business. During that time I would write these grandiose stories that would cost a production company anywhere between $50-200 million to make. Naturally, I got a lot of rejections simply because I was a newbie and a very scant amount of people would shell out that much money to a project written by an unknown.

So my scripts sat on the shelf and gathered dust and no one was going to be able to enjoy them. Then prose came to mind. Here was a medium where I didn't have to worry about budgets and people could actually READ my work. I wrote the story I saw fit, which then spent time getting pitched to agents/publishers and I kept getting the same response: "You can't introduce your villain first."

Being the rebel that I am, I rejected the rejections and made the foray into self-publishing where, so far, my work has been getting fantastic reviews. I'm glad I didn't let my book sit on the shelf along with my scripts.

Now ANYBODY can enjoy it. Its been a tough road in "getting the word out", but I've enjoyed the experience and I'm hard at work on the second book in the series.

[[deleted user]]

eliza, i'd buy it...being an editor is a pain in the butt tho...keeping track of who gets what...checks, book-keeping...but it would be FUN

[[deleted user]]

Tom...write all those scripts as novels....

[Eliza]

Thomas wrote: "Eliza wrote: "The label 'indie' really depends on why the author chose that route. An author with a good reason and an author who couldn't be bothered with interacting or waiting for the system are..."

Avoiding (stupid) publishing conventions always count as a good reason, I think. What the publishing industry is great at is figuring out tried and true methods and finding stories that match. (Incidentally, I've been eyeing your book.)

I've been doing much the same, and though I've gotten a ton of positive feedback and a lot of people asking for the next book, it still feels like skiing uphill.


Spooky1947 wrote: "eliza, i'd buy it...being an editor is a pain in the butt tho...keeping track of who gets what...checks, book-keeping...but it would be FUN"

I wonder if this is really a monetized system. More like a dedicated review board. Which, naturally, really gives very little to the reviewer aside from credibility and having their name carry weight.

[Thomas]

Spooky1947 wrote: "Tom...write all those scripts as novels...."

If I could find the time I would love to. I have one script in particular thats a "reboot" of the Sinbad franchise that got great reviews on Amazon Studios and was one of the semi-finalists when they were still doing monthly competitions.

Time is a major factor right now. I recently finished a sci-fi script for a UK production company which I'm about to sign an option for. I also have the rest of my fantasy series to finish. On top of that I still have a day job to worry about.

You can see my plight :-)

[Thomas]

Eliza wrote: "Avoiding (stupid) publishing conventions always count as a good reason, I think. What the publishing industry is great at is figuring out tried and true methods and finding stories that match. (Incidentally, I've been eyeing your book.)

I've been doing much the same, and though I've gotten a ton of positive feedback and a lot of people asking for the next book, it still feels like skiing uphill."

Thank you for having your eye on my book! ;-)

Yes, these conventions are very narrow and short sighted. And it just showed me that if they'll deny a book just for the reason my book was, then they are going to turn down something from someone else that could be genuinely genius.

This is where I think self-publishing will show its true might. Writers aren't inhibited by "the system" anymore and they're free to create whatever they see fit. I can't wait for someone that REALLY breaks the conventions and sells 100 million copies - it'd be even better if that author had a ton of rejections from agents and publishers who feel terrible at ignoring such a masterpiece.

[[deleted user]]

Tom, rember how Harlan Ellison did it...2 months of the year he wrote for TV, the rest of the year he wrote what he damn well pleased. :)

[John]

"I don't think you can redefine "independent publisher" to suit your narrative."

I think the market redefined it years ago. Night Shade is still on the list.

"I got rejected simply because I introduced my villain first. That didn't fly well with me."

I got similar treatment. In one case it was because my setting was "wrong" and I was encouraged to rewrite it in a more "popular" way, i.e. as a negativist future.

I probably could have solved it with cliché and ten sentences about how climate change was still wracking the earth four hundred years in the future, but then I wouldn't have believed my own book.

I think you're right. If I can get rejected simply for being slightly outside of trend, then the people writing really out there and inventive stuff that formerly won awards must now be getting rejected left and right.

[Thomas]

I'm sorry but I can't imagine a future that isn't bleak. It just isn't realistic to me. So you're trying to tell me that human beings actually make a POSITIVE change in the future? Pfft! No wonder you got rejections. Sounds completely unrealistic to me and I haven't even heard about the story yet!

You're such a disgrace to the designation of "author." You, sir, truly are less than nothing.

;-)

[John]

I'll try harder Thomas, I promise. My next book will be set 40 years after the zombie apocalypse where the zombies have built an idyllic utopia and reach for the stars, but their world becomes threatened when they find the two surviving oil-hungry evil humans on the space station who are bent on exhausting Zombie Earth's resources. I'll probably defeat the humans with an arc involving tween zombie angst and a deus ex machina where a vampire shows up.

[Eliza]

John wrote: "I'll try harder Thomas, I promise. My next book will be set 40 years after the zombie apocalypse where the zombies have built an idyllic utopia and reach for the stars, but their world becomes thre..."

I'm really, really glad I wasn't drinking anything. :D

[Thomas]

John wrote: "I'll try harder Thomas, I promise. My next book will be set 40 years after the zombie apocalypse where the zombies have built an idyllic utopia and reach for the stars, but their world becomes thre..."

LMAO

You may also want to throw in some vampire/zombie erotica just for safe measure. Perhaps you could call it 50 Shades of Gangrene. :-)

[Sabrina]

Thomas wrote:You may also want to throw in some vampire/zombie erotica just for safe measure. Perhaps you could call it 50 Shades of Gangrene.

LOL, but the vampire and zombie would still be totally hot.

[Daniel]

I will soon be publishing my own fantasy series so I obviously do not have any bias against indies. I look at cover and blurb first. I will always try the sample first to get a sense of the writing. If there are typos or awkward wording, more than likely I will not purchase it.

[Eliza]

Daniel wrote: "I will soon be publishing my own fantasy series so I obviously do not have any bias against indies. I look at cover and blurb first. I will always try the sample first to get a sense of the writing..."

Was there any reason you decided to go self-publishing, Daniel?

The reason I went that route with my current project is because it's a genre-shifting series. It's predominately fantasy, but I use different plot genre and structures for each book.

[Tam]

John wrote: "I'll try harder Thomas, I promise. My next book will be set 40 years after the zombie apocalypse where the zombies have built an idyllic utopia and reach for the stars, but their world becomes thre..."

Oh, this reply alone made me need to go check out your book. I wish I had this kind of quick response humor. Alas, I'm the kind of person who thinks of a witty reply 24 hours later. ROFL!

[Rusty]

** Will someone please do a small favor for me **

Below are links to my self published book's amazon page, book trailer and Kirkus review. Please tell me what puts you off on purchasing this book. I have to figure out why it's not selling. Please, I'll be your friend.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Spiral-Slay...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ3Gk4...

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re...

Thanks,
Rusty

[Tom]

At first glance, Rusty, I'd say the blurb. The format is a little too in-your-face but doesn't reveal a whole lot of the plot. Congratulations on the good reviews, though.

[Sabrina]

Yeah, definitely the blurb on Amazon. You would be better off using a similar format to the review on kirkus. The cover art is pretty dark and pixelated. Maybe go with one image on a backdrop of space. Someone directed me to this really good article on covers:

http://www.ilona-andrews.com/old-blog...

Good luck and congratulations on your first book!

[[deleted user]]

Rusty wrote: "Below are links to my self published book's amazon page, book trailer and Kirkus review. Please tell me what puts you off on purchasing this book..."

That's a pretty cool video.

Can I ask what you've done to promote your novel so far?

On Goodreads, there are several Science Fiction reading groups, and they all have folders for authors to advertise and promote their books. Our Promotions Folder is here. Try joining a couple of those SF/F groups (e.g. here and here) and posting in whatever their folder is. And, perhaps offer a couple of e-book copies free in exchange for reviews.

Also, I agree with what Sabrina said about the cover. It's fine full-size (I used Amazon's "look inside" to see the full-size image.) But in thumbnail, it's murky. In the online book retail world, your thumbnail is your promotional poster.

[[deleted user]]

PS. And don't do what another author just did and post the same promotion in multiple folders throughout the group (that just annoys people and makes the mod find the button for deleting posts); or post a promotion riddled with typographical errors (that doesn't really reflect well on the book being promoted.)

[Sean]

Ohhhh that was me...the typos were from my phone, sorry everyone, ill take them down

[J.D.]

LOL, but the vampire and zombie would still be totally hot."

Well, decomp does generate a surprising amount of heat under the right conditions...

[J.D.]

Rusty wrote: " Please tell me what puts you off on purchasing this book. "

Honestly, that's the wrong question. The default for people browsing is "don't purchase this book."

Every step of the discovery process has to draw them in enough that they are sufficiently engaged to act against that default. The cover has to draw the eye to this cover from the mass of other covers strongly enough to make people click the mouse. The blurb has to generate enough interest to move them to check the sample on this book, and the sample has to draw them in enough to get them to be willing to pay to keep reading.

Some questions to ask yourself and others would be:

"Is my cover readable? Is it recognizable? Does it communicate genre strongly? Does it stand out from the other covers in my genre at thumbnail size?"

"Is my blurb appealing? Does it communicate what kind of experience the reader can expect? Does it make the reader want to find out what happens in my book?"

"Does my sample engage readers and make people want to keep reading?"

If a book isn't selling, there may be nothing in particular that actively puts readers off of the book. There may simply not be anything that draws them strongly in.

That said, I can tell you that the way you've chosen to format your product description is probably stopping 90% of the people who land on your page from going any further.

[Val]

The description is definitely an issue. The formatting is odd, but I think it's the lack of detail regarding characters or story. It currently gives a hint as to the overall plot, but unless I know what kind of protagonist I'm following around (or protagonists) it's a little hard to get involved.

[Neil]

Rusty wrote: "

** Will someone please do a small favor for me **

Below are links to my self published book's amazon page, book trailer and Kirkus review. Please tell me w..."

Two things jump out at me. One, the book cover has painfully bright green writing, whereas I think a simple white font would be more effective.
Two, the blurb looks disjointed and off-putting with all the lines and spaces. I really had a hard time focusing on the words in the blurb enough to have them register in my mind. I think if you simplified the layout of the blurb it would be easier to read. Having said that, I do quite like the concept of the story, and the way you have expressed the plot in the blurb.

[Rusty]

I want to thank everyone for the replies! I agree on the blurb and cover. I've already replaced the blur with a quick fix (I just used the Kirkus description for now). The cover will be redone when I incorporatge the Kirkus review. Funny, I never gave either the blurb or cover a second thought--it was checked off 'the list' and didn't exist.

Rusty

[Kevin]

In my opinion, a good book's a good book; I couldn't care less who the publisher is and it isn't a factor in my purchasing decisions. If the premise of a book intrigues me I'm in, even if it's self-published. If it doesn't, I'm out, and it doesn't matter who wrote it or published it.

That said, I've enjoyed almost all of the indie books I've read. When I didn't, it had nothing to do with the fact that they were indies and was usually the result of me simply not caring for the story.

Disclaimer: I am a self-published novelist myself and I'm blessed to be having a modicum of success in the publishing arena at the moment.