Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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I, Lucifer
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Book & Author Page Issues
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Wrong ASIN?
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Also keep in mind that different international Kindle stores may have different ASINs - so for example, the same book may have one ASIN for the US Kindle store and another for the UK Kindle store. If you try to click through to the UK store instead, you might find it brings up the correct edition. It is not always a case of a new, updated Kindle edition getting a new ASIN.
No problem - better to ask than get into trouble for doing it wrong! :)
Mod
It doesn't count as "from Amazon" for legal purposes when the data is extracted from the ebook itself.
I think if we don't maintain ASIN, you won't be able to click through to Amazon - not only would that be annoying as a user but also, I believe it would mean GR won't get a commission on Kindle/audio book sales that came from GR.
We don't get a commission as far as I am aware! :)
Amazon state that we cannot use their data which in their case includes all derivative feeds, but excludes the items themselves. GoodReads is not an Amazon affiliate - if we were we would a) be able to use Amazon data feeds, and b) have to only link to Amazon approved vendors as if we were an affiliated vendor. We are not a vendor.
I am pretty sure GR is still an Amazon Affiliate. ETA: Hmm, okay, maybe affiliate is the wrong terminology but I don't see why they would link through to Amazon with a unique code if they're not making a commission.I don't think there is any legal question - GR will probably have lawyers and Amazon contacts who have probably been over the issue and determined that obtaining the ASIN from the ebook itself is not in conflict with the break from Amazon as a data source. And GR can still remain Amazon Affiliates even if they are not using Amazon as a data source.
Look at it this way - when you buy a paperback book and you enter the ISBN from the book, the data source is considered the book, not the ISO which issued the number. So logically the same would apply to ebooks - it doesn't matter who issued the number, if you get it from the book, the data source is the book.
Personally, I find it more confusing that we're not allowed to use covers or descriptions from Amazon's website even though the covers and descriptions on Amazon are supplied by the publisher!
But even if it doesn't make sense to us, I trust that GR know what they are doing when they advise librarians so I don't think you need to worry about the legalities.
Ed wrote: "I think "affiliate" and "vendor" are two very different things, so it's possible Goodreads is an affiliate (which would simply mean a small commission from any purchases made from a link to Amazon from here, but not entail the further restrictions of "vendor") – but as I said, I don't know enough about the links."That would make sense. Like I say, whatever it's called, I don't see why GR would have a unique code when linking through to Amazon if they weren't making a commission.
"I don't think ISBN is a valid comparison, though; we're talking about a specific proprietary code issued by Amazon (ASIN) for an item exclusively sold by Amazon (Kindle ebooks). ISBN identifies a title anybody can sell; ASIN identifies an item only Amazon can sell. The data source is the ebook, yes, but the ebook as identified as a Kindle ebook is an Amazon product. So the data source is Amazon, inescapably."
You would think but I guess the law feels differently. In my experience, the law is complicated and frequently doesn't make sense. But like I say, whether it makes sense or not, I'm pretty sure GR knows what they are doing when they advise librarians so I just do what they say!
"But there's no way for anybody to prove the Kindle Edition ebook wasn't purchased by the Goodreads librarian who updated the record or someone known to him or her. The ASIN as plainly displayed on Amazon.com is the source for that data, and it's freely available to anyone with internet access. This "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" pretending that Amazon is not the source for the ASIN is ridiculous. It is the source, because it has to be; there is no other."
Oh I agree, and I'm sure both GR and Amazon know that but like you say, there's nothing that can be done to prove it so I guess it's enough for Amazon that GR just make it clear that Amazon can not be used as a data source.
Even now, I still see cover images that are so clearly from Amazon because they have the freaking "look inside" graphics on it! I delete them when I see them but it's no secret people are still using Amazon as a data source but I don't think Amazon are going to be suing GR for it - it probably wouldn't be worth it. There's nothing else to really be done about it.
Ed wrote: "I wonder if there actually has been any higher-level discussion between Goodreads and Amazon regarding this specific issue."There was actually a huge meltdown between Amazon and Goodreads just over a year ago regarding the use of Amazon data on Goodreads. Since this policy has been put in place as part of the resolution of that problem, I would suspect that yes, it's been discussed. :)
If the amazon data is from the publisher, goodreads just pulls from the publisher site and case closed (a lot of the asin/kindle editions use same image as print copies so can re-use for kindle edition if exactly the same).The ASIN for books is assigned not by amazon as vendor/retailer but rather by amazon in its role as publisher or by amazon to other publishers (including self publishing indies) distributing their books to amazon.
Hair-splitting logic a bit; but, it's enough hairsplitting that, no, asin is no more proprietary to the site than upc, isbn, sku, assorted NICET and other certification codes, ul listings, patent numbers, etc. — that's all been worked to death in the courts and all such numbers viewable to the public on the items purchased or in any other publicly viewable form — goes into the often murky "Fair Use" part of the copyright laws.
Once on a consumer product, cataloguing sites like goodreads and even auction sites like ebay can use.
Other data is site proprietary to amazon. Yes, the publisher, author, copyright-holder or authorized agents supplying amazon with data like images and book blurbs are not transferring any copyrights.
But how amazon then uses the data (including bookcovers) is. Specifically the copyrighted big orange arrows with look inside and format tab at bottom is only for use on amazon site and to sites they allow to use under very specific terms — terms goodreads could not agree to. (Even authors who use that image on their own book pages may be doing so illegally, they are always doing so illegally if they have both a link to purchase at amazon and a link to another bookseller like bn on the exact same web page as orange arrowed-image appears).
Ditto for Barnes and Noble's bottom cornered image saying "look inside", google play's bottom curled corner, etc.User images scanned to bookseller or secondhand sites (ebay, abebooks, etc.) depending on site's terms of service are property of the site or the individual providing. We can't use unless the site's permission say we can. (I don't know of any sites allowing which doesn't mean there aren't any).
Other public sites and organizations like Worldcat permit. Publisher sites (even if selling book direct to consumer) allow but that's partly because of court decisions on fair use and other copyright issues; no one can alter the publisher images, title/author source have to stay clear; Barnes and Noble, amazon and other vendors had to get permission ( well, permission buried in all the distribution contracts and terms of service) to even do the orange arrow type of stuff.
[EDIT after thread close — no, as Rivka says, cannot take data from amazon site. Ever. Can take it from the actual product, even if product is an ebook. Can use it if author types ithe asin in their post versus just saying "book is on amazon so you can get ..." —cannot obtain from the amazon,com site]
Mod
NO. We may not use any data from the Amazon site. Period.
Continued speculation regarding the legalities of this are outside the scope of this group, as they do not affect policy.
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We do NOT change the records. We record the item as bought, not the item as currently sold, so if a new ASIN is assigned, a new record is created here and then combined with the existing editions.