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Is hijab liberation or oppression?
message 51:
by
Liz
(new)
Jun 17, 2009 02:56PM
i believe that there was a great creator who got the wheels moving, but is not an active part of our life. he created the universe using science, yet let things run there own course.
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Mod
That would be known as Deism.
Mod
that is what my mom said... deism (i just learned that yesterday)i am 0% in line with the bible :( or :) i am not sure
what do you think of deism?
Mod
Hm. I personally don't agree with it, but, of all religious ideas, it's the one that contradicts the least with what we know about the universe. And, if there is a God, it is the most likely position to be correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
http://www.deism.com/
What did you start as, when you first came here?
catholici was baptized, went to church every sunday, rosary nightly, read the bible nightly, etc.
i am currently checking out those sites
Because it says Eve came from a rib. So we would only be an extension of the male and his dominance.I agree its disgusting.
Mod
The company is good with Deism. Many respected individuals of science and politics were Deists. Of course, who knows what they would believe now, with the information we have.
I know, I am much awesome. I was agnostic when I got onto goodreads, lolz. But I used to go to church but had a hard time believing it all.
When i came onto goodreads i was an atheist, then i started thinking maybe god could exist. And then sense hit me again, and now im agnostic. :P
Mod
But I always had a huge interest in natural science from a very early age. And, honestly, what's cooler to a 4 year old, the dinosaur exhibit at the NYC natural history museum, or church. XD
Lauren wrote: "I actually was sent out to be evangelical. When neither of my parents are. X) Strange, I know. But I always had a huge interest in natural science from a very early age. And, honestly, what's coo..."
lol. I used to want to be steve erwin when i grew up, and i would always watch jane goodal talkign about how humans and chimps share 98% of their dna, even though i didnt know what dna was.
Mod
I watched When Dinosaurs Roamed America and all that good Discovery Channel stuff.
Even Mythbusters, which isn't specific with facts and just tests stuff out, teaches us. Never accept a myth, if it hasn't been tested and proven.
I'm not even a massive science person, I just figured it doesn't make sense.
Mod
He was a fellow deist/atheist. No one is quite sure.,
Lauren wrote: ":)I watched When Dinosaurs Roamed America and all that good Discovery Channel stuff.
Even Mythbusters, which isn't specific with facts and just tests stuff out, teaches us. Never accept a myth, ..."
My sister was watching that earlier! xD
Mod
Lauren wrote: "Adam and Jamie, of Mythbusters, are considering putting God and evolution to the test on air. :) It's quite a fabulous idea. "But they'll never be able to prove or disprove either idea xD
Mod
Yes they can. That is their job, to empirically prove or disprove facts.
Besides, evolution is proven. Every major biologist would agree.
you can disprove god, (it has been done), but people keep on believing it.
Okay - you have all posted some very interesting questions. Sorry I couldn't get on before so that I could answer them before the debate drifted off :) srry... Islam is not just a religion but a way of life...so you cannot take it out of context and expect it to work. Islam came in a time of polygamy and corruption and tribal warfare amongst the Arab tribes. Islam came down as the final religion because people had drifted away from the initial pure truths of Christianity- and Islam came as the consecutive "final ladder" of the way to heaven, in a sense.
So when you ask why women are not allowed this and taken as that and this and that without reference to the core message of Islam - it becomes distorted and irrelevant. Muslims believe that man and woman were created equal with the emphasis on justice more than equality. Why an emphasis on justice more than equality? because justice gives all their needs and takes into consideration all the factors that equality doesn't necessarily consider. For example, to have man and woman equal so that both do the same thing doesn't make much sense because:
1)man goes to work
woman goes to work
2)man comes home and cooks
woman comes home and cooks
3)then...woman suffers the burden of childbirth and child care...why? cause biologically that is her duty
but their is no equivalent male burden...so the balance starts to tilt
4)so is the woman still expected to juggle both roles of housekeeper, babysitter and worker while man just handles work? That is what so many American women struggle with these days.
Islam looks at it realistically and revolving around the undeniable biological roles of male and female, outlines the lifestyle of a family. But remember that the Islamic outline is a just a guide to make life work.
I think that many times with the hegemony of the message of equality, many advocates of feminism blur the innate differences between man and woman.
And I know that many of the women reading this are probably screaming with fury- but just listen me out.
You have to realize that those innate difference DO NOT make women incapable or inferior to men. Rather those differences make them DIFFERENT- serving... just that...different roles.
So when Islam comes to say: men are obligated to provide for the family by working outside the house while women take care of the children- it is an outline...it doesn't mean that women cannot work, but it means that the woman's duty centers around her child and if she fulfills that, like she only has one child and wants to continue with her career...that is no problem to Islam. And Islam keeps the family further away the tanglement of who buys groceries..and my money and her money...and "I suffered the pain of childbirth and you just don't care!"
So through that Islam steps to preserve the importance of a sane family structure...
that helps to clear up a few things, but it still doesn't explain the actual opression that women face like not leaving the house w/o a male relative, etc.
Liz wrote: "Whoa, Saudi Arabia, really? What was that like? I've always wanted to live in either Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan, for some reason. It would be so drastically different than here."It was nice- It was very different from here - there was like some cultural and of course, religious unity that was hard to explain...like they lived a totally different life than here. Over there...of course, all the women were covered with the veil and there were men and women sections almost everywhere you went...so the women had sort of like a private life to themselves in a sense that their was limited interaction between this woman's husband and that man's wife...you know.
Also in Saudi Arabia...the family unit was very distictive...I mean I don't think I met a "single mom" that is trying to juggle family support by herself...you know.
But enough about the social and cultural....visually it is very technologically advanced- very pretty...like huge sky scrapers and a McDonald's next door. But there was also the cool desert and camels and palm tree scenery that was also very beautiful. The girl's school that I went to was nice (I don't have any bad memories- I'm srry)...the food is good like chicken with rice and a whole bunch of sweets and their famous sugarless coffee...Well ya :)
Mod
Does that justify his oppression humans rights?
In everything, the ends to not justify the means. Even if Islam is beneficial, what it takes away from women irreplaceable.
what if women want to marry a non-islam man?
Liz wrote: "that helps to clear up a few things, but it still doesn't explain the actual opression that women face like not leaving the house w/o a male relative, etc. "
A lot of what the West looks at as opression is in the sense westernized. For example, the woman cannot leave the house w/o a male guardian is a principle that is not as strict as it seems. It is for the woman's protection- he drives her to where ever she wants to go and picks her up later on...
The women there are considered precious and like queens. They are driven where-ever they want to go, and served. Its not like "hey - you are not allowed to go till your husband/brother/father is ready to take you !"...rather it is more like "I'll drop you off where you want to go".
And realize this is specifically in Saudi Arabia where women do not drive, mostly because there is no need for it. But now as the proffesional world of woman in Saudi Arabia is expanding, they are allowing women to drive.
You also have to realize that Islam attempts to protect the woman and does not specifically say ... a woman cannot go out of the house w/o her male gaurdian or that woman are not allowed to drive. Rather, Islam states that women are to be protected.
In that,Islam prevents women from being used commercially, socially and in the media as sex objects like we see in the West. Women become less absorbed with being socially accepted on a basis of beauty. Women also become less vulnerable to rape and harrasment as a result of a sudden lust of passion.
Lauren wrote: "Mao's China gives the residents a better education then the US.Does that justify his oppression humans rights?
In everything, the ends to not justify the means. Even if Islam is beneficial, what..."
Could you specifiy what opression we are talking about? because many times people mix up the extremist ideals of Iran with Islam or the opressive ideals of one group with the messages of Islam...
Liz wrote: "what if women want to marry a non-islam man?"Well it is highly discouraged...because Islam says that women are suppose to be cooperative with their husbands and likewise he with her. So if she marries a non-Muslim then...
1) what religion will the children be?
2) what if he tells her to do something that is against her religion...then it'll put her in a state where she either disobeys Allah and disobeys him (etc.)
3) what about the rights she has... the rights a husband is obligated to give to a wife...what if since he is not a muslim, he does not know about it and mistreats her?
4) and then again just perspectively-speaking, what happens to the kids in afterlife if say the wife goes to heaven since she is muslim and the husband goes to hell?
You see it just complicates things... and I don't think any muslim woman who is looking to get married has any problem...because Islam is the fastest growing religion and in reality encompasses EVERY single race practically...so she has a wide range of choices :)...
how can religion be so much of a persons life? how can they base their whole lifes on a book of contradicitons and evils? http://www.evilbible.com/
Mod
The women there are considered precious and like queens. They are driven where-ever they want to go, and served. Its not like "hey - you are not allowed to go till your husband/brother/father is ready to take you !"...rather it is more like "I'll drop you off where you want to go".
And realize this is specifically in Saudi Arabia where women do not drive, mostly because there is no need for it. But now as the proffesional world of woman in Saudi Arabia is expanding, they are allowing women to drive.
You also have to realize that Islam attempts to protect the woman and does not specifically say ... a woman cannot go out of the house w/o her male gaurdian or that woman are not allowed to drive. Rather, Islam states that women are to be protected.
In that,Islam prevents women from being used commercially, socially and in the media as sex objects like we see in the West. Women become less absorbed with being socially accepted on a basis of beauty. Women also become less vulnerable to rape and harrasment as a result of a sudden lust of passion.
"
I will not apologize. That paragraph is dripping with oppression, moral cowardice and passive sexism. It is NOT the women's problem is guys are too stupid to not be able to control their lust. It is THEIR problem. They are oppressed, because they are believe to be not worthy to control their own lives. What you state is in essence propaganda to make the stripping of human dignity of these women less distasteful to the world. Read the book Infidel, and try to claim that then.
Mod
It states the in Bible that a woman must marry her rapist, because it is her fault she was raped, because she looked too nice and was asking for it. How dare you suggest that this idea has merit.
i didn't realize the bible told you to marry your rapistewww
Lauren wrote: ""A lot of what the West looks at as opression is in the sense westernized. For example, the woman cannot leave the house w/o a male guardian is a principle that is not as strict as it seems. It is ...""oppression, moral cowardice and passive sexism"? What are you talking about? When did we automatically infer that the hijab and that way of life is restrictive and that the women are unhappy? Why are you still looking at it as if it was a burden? The hijab is many, many, many women's source of pride and independence! Independence from the hence...sexist binds that obligate women to wear such revealing clothes and go through painful surgeries for acceptance. I see opression and sexism in that! I see lack of justice and vulnerability in that image of corruption!
How is what I'm saying propaganda? How is telling the truth to women that they have no dignity in being shows of beauty propaganda? A woman's beauty is hers but she is corrupted if she uses to manipulate men- and that is what Islam is getting at.
Women have every right to control their lives- it has nothing at all to do with opression. The Hijab is liberation and talking about the benefits of the Hijab in contrast with the statistics is not propoganda!
Lauren... I see what you don't understand and here they are (could you try to ask specific questions about each one?):
1)Women are...and yes they are opressed in a social sense...when they walk down the streets with half their body exposed and everyone checking them out with no respect to who they truly are or what they are standing for. Islam is against that.
2)So if they do that because they are accepting society's standards and society's unrealistic, lustful portrayals of women. Then... through a sense they deserve what they get! But she is of course not forced to marry the rapist or anything - I find that idea also a bit obscure.
3)You have to realize that since this debate focused on women- we never really talked about the consequences of men's actions and Islam's attitude toward them...then you'll see the justice.
A rapist is not off the hook for rape! He will be punished...but is it not her fault also that she did not prevent it? She will not be punished but islam is saying...just protect yourself and your indivduality and make your life professionally supportive.
How do you use your sexuality and beauty to get ahead? Getting ahead in the spiritual, material, physical, professional,economic,educational world has NOTHING to do with sexuality or beauty! Explain that plz.
Mod
As I said. Read Infidel. Excellent book. There is no sexism is telling women it's okay to look good.
"Women are...and yes they are opressed in a social sense...when they walk down the streets with half their body exposed and everyone checking them out with no respect to who they truly are or what they are standing for. Islam is against that. "
And when did a guy thinking a girl is hot become a bad thing? It's a perfectly natural response. Natural selection works because animals show off what they have in hopes to attract a mate. The bower bird, decorating their nest. The peacock, with their feathers. It's how genes are passed on.
"So if they do that because they are accepting society's standards and society's unrealistic, lustful portrayals of women. Then... through a sense they deserve what they get! But she is of course not forced to marry the rapist or anything - I find that idea also a bit obscure. "
So, all women deserve to get raped because they like to show off their bodies? Disgusting.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
"A rapist is not off the hook for rape! He will be punished...but is it not her fault also that she did not prevent it? She will not be punished but islam is saying...just protect yourself and your indivduality and make your life professionally supportive. :
How the hell is she supposed to prevent being raped? it's NOT HER PROBLEM. It's the guy's problem, his fault, his issue. She is not at fault anywhere. Is she supposed to walk around in a tent? Oh wait, that's EXACTLY what they make hem do. The guys are too stupid to control their lust, so women have to suffer for it.
"How do you use your sexuality and beauty to get ahead? "
People are put at easy by beauty. It's a side effect of natural selection. People are attracted to beautiful things. If you look nice, you get noticed. A prefect example is the modeling industry.
So basically humans are animals and are made to live and attract each other with shows of beauty like the peacock? What happened to human reason and human dignity? So I just go around like I want to showing off my body with no care in the world - just cause a side effect of natural selection made people attracted to my beauty- and when I'm raped, I just pick myself up like any other animal and go on with my life? Where are the rules and my self pride? Where is my individuality? Explain...
This is extremely interesting that just our views about science (hence evolution ) made our outlook on life so different.
I see humans as dignified, proud, reasoned, well-educated souls- humans made different from animals by reason and the brain that in fact raised them to a level beyond that of instinct.
But how do you see humans- just a divergence from the apes?
Forgive any rudeness that I may have shown throughout this debate- I would like to keep my debate clean and thoughful :)
Mod
You are confusing the issue. It's not your job to not get raped, it's the GUY'S job to restraint himself. Do you honestly wan to live your life in fear of getting assaulted every time you go out with a skirt?
"So basically humans are animals and are made to live and attract each other with shows of beauty like the peacock? What happened to human reason and human dignity?"
The two are by no means mutually exclusive. Just because we are smarter doesn't mean we simply abandon instincts formed over the course of millions of years in a few centuries.
"I see humans as dignified, proud, reasoned, well-educated souls- humans made different from animals by reason and the brain that in fact raised them to a level beyond that of instinct.
But how do you see humans- just a divergence from the apes? "
The fact that we HAVE reason is a product of evolution. We are the result, so far, of millions of years of a natural process. And being proud and dignified has nothing to do with being created. Instead of being created, and being cut off from Nature, just planted here on a whim, we are a part of it. The primate family is our family.
Lauren wrote: "Weird. I'm reading Common Sense by Tommy Paine right now. He was a fellow deist/atheist. No one is quite sure., "
I love that book -- a few days ago I saw the original at Smithsonian.
Lauren wrote: ""You are confusing the issue. It's not your job to not get raped, it's the GUY'S job to restraint himself. Do you honestly wan to live your life in fear of getting assaulted every time you go out with a skirt? "I still don't see why you can't prevent rape and protect yourself. The fact that there will always be guys out there that do not restrain themselves will not change! So to protect yourself, you have to do something... not just sit around and say its the guy's fault for raping me.
Its like going to an arcade to play games. But someone gives you an uncomfortable stocky,ugly, bullet-proof vest to wear because he/she tells you that there is a possibility of a shoot-out in the arcade. And you shrug and say you don't want to wear that UGLY thing ...and that you shouldn't have to pay for the dumb gangster's decision to start shooting at the arcade. What do you think is going to happen to you?
Is it not commen sense then to say you are playing it safe and wearing the vest, while not restricting your right to go play,and that you're protecting yourself. What is wrong with that?
That is what hijab is... a safety measure and respect-provoking social message.
And the hijab gives you JUST that... the protection so that you really don't have to carry the fear of getting raped every time you walk out!
Lauren wrote: "The two are by no means mutually exclusive. Just because we are smarter doesn't mean we simply abandon instincts formed over the course of millions of years in a few centuries..."Being smarter gives us more power and control over our instinct. It gives us the knowledge to understand that instinct. Instinct cannot be abandoned! Because its innate and involuntary. SO since we are smarter- that means we control our instinct! or else humans would be no different than animals.
Imagine the consequences of what you're implying...every man and woman doing everything by instinct...it would corrupt the world and we would then truly be animals!
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Mod
That is absolutely silly. Just because you obviously don't feel you have the self control to indulge your natural instincts doesn't mean the rest of us don't. People are not either bound by rules or total savages.
Mod
and the french (though they didn't profit the same way we did [the french revolution:])
