Did This Irritate Anybody Else As Well? (LOtR tie-in)

[Kelsey]

In my Tolkien class we discussed the meaning of free-will and obedience. There was a discussion of Wormtongue stabbing Sauromon with a last spark of free will as well as some sort of redemption (seen in the Extended Edition of RotK or the book).

Thinking about the idea of that pathetic follower who calls one lord/master. There was a scene in DH where Harry asks Wormtail if he had any remorse or regret for what he's done and then he does hesitate enough to where Voldemort's made hand turns against Wormtail. I found this scene to be extremely powerful. We know what happened to Wormtail and there was a redeeming moment for him and in stretch, a redeeming moment for anybody who does hesitate under the orders of a Controlling Lord.

So now after all of that psychological/philosophical stuff, did it annoy anybody else that that scene was cut out of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1? Is it just me who believes it was much more important than a small scene?

[Kelsey]

I'm not trying to compare the two, just to let anybody know. I'm actually very against it. I was trying to describe where I got the idea of the free-will/disobedience. Obviously fantasy stories have the same structure because that is what they are (though I'm unsure if Tolkien would consider Harry Potter to be "fantasy" under his definition of the word). I'm not trying to bring on the comparisons as it is apparent to many readers.

Anyway, did anybody find that the Wormtail scene was important even if it was just a small plot point? Many didn't even notice it missing!

[Jeni]

If I recall correctly, Wormtail is indeed strangled by his own silver hand in the basement of the Malfoy mansion after a brief exchange with Harry and Ron in the movie. I found it to be pretty powerful on film, too. It didn't last long, true, but watching an outcome is usually faster than reading about one.

There are many stories with the same structure of remorse/redemption in them, as Faith said. It's a great virtue in our society that you can ask for forgiveness with true regret and be redeemed. It's an important part of many religions.

As for any similarities between HP and LOTR,well, a long-bearded wise man is pretty striking. There's also Merlin in the Arthur legend that fits the same mold. It's a device that is popular throughout magical literature.

[Carina]

I didn't notice that it was missing tbh. Now that you have drawn attention to it I do think it is a bit of a shame it was left out as it makes Wormtail more human.

Thinking of the movie portrayals - Wormtongue, more so in the extended versions, is seen as someone very human who was tempted by great power. Wormtail on the other hand was, to my mind, more a weak individual who, though tempted in the same way as Wormtongue, had no real emotional response and whose only care was to save himself.

Both characters are incredibly similar but at least Wormtongue gets some redemption.

[Kelsey]

It's actually not in the movie. It may be in a deleted scene, but I don't recall it. Yates lets people assume he died when Dobby stunned him because of the blood on the wall or it could be assumed he was killed for letting them up. It was a very powerful scene and I had hoped to see it in the movie.

The asking for forgiveness is a very true statement. Wormtail's was a hesitation and I always wondered if that was enough for redemption.

[Kelsey]

Carina wrote: "I didn't notice that it was missing tbh. Now that you have drawn attention to it I do think it is a bit of a shame it was left out as it makes Wormtail more human.

Thinking of the movie portrayals..."

I wish I had put this as a discussion so the replies would be easier to make... oh well.

I guess that Wormtongue is more tempted while Wormtail is just weak. Wormtail went to Voldemort just to find a way to survive as he begged Sirius to spare his life in the third one. Does Wormtail get a chance to redeem himself entirely?

[Sarina]

I thought I had a glimpse of it in the movie. Ron and Harry tried to stop the hand from killing him, but in vain. Was it really left out? Dunno, gotta watch it again... And how the heck did Dumbledore guess in the 3rd book that kindness to Wormtail will pay off in the end? (Oh no, I'm getting hyped up just remembering this one scene in the book, whoa! Harry Potter really is influential.)

[Luna Belle Pris]

It should be in the movie, but it' s not. Maybe it would be too scary? Can't imagine any other reason why.

[[deleted user]]

Kelsey wrote: "I'm not trying to compare the two, just to let anybody know. I'm actually very against it. I was trying to describe where I got the idea of the free-will/disobedience. Obviously fantasy stories hav..."

I noticed it was missing in the movie, but didn't think it necessary to add.