Is fantasy getting darker?

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

One of my favorite Greek/Roman stories is Pandora's Box.

The tale of how all of evil was released into the world.

And last of all ...Hope...

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/gr...

[Eliot]

Christopher wrote: "Eliot, hope is an interesting lens through which to examine writing. That's an apt word to use, as it quickly focuses the discussion and adds clarity. I wonder what would happen if you analyzed tre..."

Christopher and Brenda, I have this vague memory of reading Prometheus Bound in undergrad and being struck that at one point he said that he not only gave man fire, but also Hope, whereupon the (Fates? Furies?) responded, "You gave them THAT?" Seems like hope has long been considered a theme central to literature and human endeavor, and has long been realized as a necessary and, at times, revolutionary force. Removing it is great for horror-themed books like Zone 1 because there are few things more horrifying than abject hopelessness (I'm a zombie... I'll always be a zombie... I don't like being a zombie... braaaaains... arrggggg...). I'm not sure if abject hopelessness is what defines Dark Fantasy or not, but it seems to be a common component. People are reduced to ambition, drive, and desire, checked more by fear than by morality. The resulting fiction is almost like a social experiment elucidated by a computer model -- how would society fare if stripped of hope and morality and justice? Who would rise to power and how would that power be maintained?

Christopher, author world view is at times super illuminating and at other times totally confounding. I love hearing nuggets of author worldview. Once you know that C.S. Lewis is one of the great Christian apologist thinkers and scholars, you understand his novels from an enlightened adult perspective. But when you learn that Orson Scott Card comes from (or perhaps adopted later in life, after Ender) a surprisingly intolerant religious/nationalist viewpoint, it's hard to reconcile the work with the man.

[L.G.]

Greg wrote: "Yes, but just wait until that TV series ends, GRRM dies, or the books are finished.

There will be a huge hole in fantasy lovers' lives, and if you write that stuff, oh boy, gravy train!"

At the pace he is writing, this isn't such a ridiculous idea.

[S.J.]

Christopher wrote: "Eliot, hope is an interesting lens through which to examine writing. That's an apt word to use, as it quickly focuses the discussion and adds clarity. I wonder what would happen if you analyzed tre..."
I'd love to read a thesis on that! I'm sure that this is my main problem with dark fantasy: it always seems to me like there's no hope of redemption in these hopeless story-lines. It's one thing to portray people as the worst of the worst, but if they never learn anything from it (except to be worse than they already are), what the heck is the point of that? All it does is highlight the worst aspects of humanity. Darn it all, but that's just depressing. I just don't understand how that makes for an enjoyable story.

[Scott]

I have found, during the course of reading this genre for roughly 35 years, that my tastes change with the years...I preferred the lighter stuff when I started, and distinctly remember reading in Lord fouls bane where a girl is raped. I read that at like 20, put the book down and never looked back...Whereas now, I read more of the darker stuff, such as The Blade itself, Lies of Locke Lamora, Sandman SLim, and the Night Angel series, and enjoy them very much; while I can still enjoy the happier books as well (though finding one I haven't already read has gotten harder..)

[Christopher]

Eliot, you're right. Author view can be sometimes confounding, but I think it is usually somehow pertinent to what the author has written, as it seems to be extremely difficult to be untrue to one's self. I think. The zombie genre is interesting in its blatant removal of hope, but I think you find that absence in other genres as well, just more carefully camouflaged. It certainly shows up in the George Martin brand of fantasy, but I wonder if a case could be made for genres such as erotica and NA, where the driving forces are an odd mix of hormonal and the sheer need to relationally connect (I might be slightly kidding here). There's little room for pure hope in such mixes.

SJ, if you ever write a thesis like that, let me know! I'd love to read it.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Scott wrote: "I have found, during the course of reading this genre for roughly 35 years, that my tastes change with the years...I preferred the lighter stuff when I started, and distinctly remember reading in ..."

I think I am the opposite.

When I was younger I devoured it all - dark, light it didn't matter as long as it was Fantasy.

As I've gotten older I've been more interested in Hopeful Fantasy and completely turned off by the Grimdark stuff.

I couldn't even get into the Lies of Locke Lamora due to the (view spoiler)[scene with the guy being tortured with a bag of broken glass on his head and face. !!!!!! *shudder* It gives me the chills just thinking about it. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Scott wrote: "I have found, during the course of reading this genre for roughly 35 years, that my tastes change with the years...I preferred the lighter stuff when I started, and distinctly rememb..."

I am with you here. I realized recently I cannot read anything with word dystopia in description for exactly this reason: most of the time it is quite depressing.

[Greg]

I guess you have those wanting dark and depressing fantasy because that's how they see the world today.

Many others want hopeful fantasy, as I think they're trying to escape what they see in the world today.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Evgeny wrote: "I am with you here. I realized recently I cannot read anything with word dystopia in description for exactly this reason: most of the time it is quite depressing. "

YES!

Except when the worldbuilding is sketchy at best...then it's unintentionally hilarious.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

Hopeful fantasy....hmmm...
Good shelf name.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Brenda ╰☆╮ wrote: "Hopeful fantasy....hmmm...
Good shelf name."

I was thinking that, too!

[Christopher]

Great name. Someone should start building a list of titles...

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Christopher wrote: "Great name. Someone should start building a list of titles..."

Great Idea.

I love lists.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Ummm, I'd start with:

The Belgariad: Volume One
Witch World
Kate Daniels Magic Bites

...

[[deleted user]]

Does Conan qualify? From the humor side first 4 books of Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin should probably be there.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Evgeny wrote: "Does Conan qualify? From the humor side first 4 books of Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin should probably be there."


Sadly, I have to admit that I've not read enough Conan to say. *shamed face*

IDK about Asprin - would you consider that "Hopeful Fantasy" or "Comedic Fantasy?"

[[deleted user]]

MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Evgeny wrote: "Does Conan qualify? From the humor side first 4 books of Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin should probably be there."


Sadly, I have to admit that I've not read enoug..."

Both comedic and hopeful; with the modern grimdark trend most hope comes from comedies :)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Evgeny wrote: "MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Evgeny wrote: "Does Conan qualify? From the humor side first 4 books of Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin should..."

good point

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

Would you include Song of the Beast?

I swear I cried at every moment reading this but the ending was so nice. :)

But still...I cried a lot.

[Paulo "paper books only"]

Good thread. My opinion is... Anti-Hero is the New-Hero. I think with the change of our own world, look at the series, you've got in the 80's the Knightrider, A-Team or Macgyver and they were the GOOD guys. There wasn't a grey character. The evil was only there to thwart the goodies, mostly without any characterization. Now, pick a series and every main character has something dark beneath him/her. And this doesn't apply solely to fantasy series... House MD, Breaking Dad, 24H, Walking Dead etc.

Fantasy is no exception. I think most people don't find the typical White Knight (Good Guys) as believable nowadays. Because that's how we live. We somethings do Good deeds, and sometimes we must choose some darker path, and believe me everyone does it. It's like...

They are more... real.

We don't need a Good Character making us feel bad about our actions. We need someone who is human. Who fails and is capable of darker actions.

Look at Superman and Batman. One is a typical perfect good guy and other is a anti-hero. And I bet that nowadays people enjoy more of Batman than superman.

[Brenda ╰☆╮]

MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Would you include Song of the Beast?

I swear I cried at every moment reading this but the ending was so nice. :)

But still...I cried a lot."

This seems to require more thought.
I think it would still be hopeful......didn't read that one yet.
Errr....I'm not as well rounded, I suppose, as I thought.

Link to hopeful fantasy thread.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

And if we list them as hopeful....are they getting spoilery?

[Greg]

Paulo "paper books always" wrote: "Good thread. My opinion is... Anti-Hero is the New-Hero. I think with the change of our own world, look at the series, you've got in the 80's the Knightrider, A-Team or Macgyver and they were the G..."

Good ideas.

[S.J.]

Christopher wrote: "SJ, if you ever write a thesis like that, let me know! I'd love to read it."

I will surely let you know...lol. Alas, my thesis-writing days are long gone. I graduated from university 15 years ago now.

The hopeful fantasy thread definitely needs checking out!

[L.G.]

Paulo "paper books always" wrote: "Good thread. My opinion is... Anti-Hero is the New-Hero. I think with the change of our own world, look at the series, you've got in the 80's the Knightrider, A-Team or Macgyver and they were the G..."

The Superman/Batman comparison is spot on. Reviewers have, in the past, often described Superman as naive and praised Batman's grittiness (I'm speaking here of the movies). Interestingly enough, quite a few fans reacted negatively to the the newest Superman movie, which was considerably grittier than the previous movies.

[DavidO]

L.G. wrote: "quite a few fans reacted negatively to the the newest Superman movie, which was considerably grittier than the previous movies. "

Quite a few fans have been angry about the last 5 Superman movies, especially #4 and #5. #6 has not been derided nearly as much.

[L.G.]

DavidO wrote: "L.G. wrote: "quite a few fans reacted negatively to the the newest Superman movie, which was considerably grittier than the previous movies. "

Quite a few fans have been angry about the last 5 Sup..."

I think you're probably right. But the people who have complained have been very, very vocal (most take exception to how he dealt with Zod). But I just think it's interesting that the criticism has been of the grittier direction in contrast to the praise that Batman has received for that same thing.

[S.J.]

Superman has historically been very idealistic about preserving life though. Personally, I always find it irritating when films change a character's basic philosophy in favour of including dramatic action. It was more than Superman's powers that made him "super". :)

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

S.J. wrote: "Superman has historically been very idealistic about preserving life though. Personally, I always find it irritating when films change a character's basic philosophy in favour of including dramatic..."

Agreed.

I saw what he did with Zod and I was all O_O that's...not Superman.

And I've always thought Batman was batshit crazy so...

[L.G.]

S.J. wrote: "Superman has historically been very idealistic about preserving life though. Personally, I always find it irritating when films change a character's basic philosophy in favour of including dramatic..."

I understand that, but I'm in the camp of people who didn't really see him having much other choice (Zod being a more experienced warrior + Superman being new to his powers). And the original movie featuring Zod wasn't exactly the sunniest place either.

The point I'm trying to make though is that Superman is also headed in a darker direction - most likely because it worked so well for Batman. While there have been complaints, the most recent Superman movie was better received than its predecessor.

[S.J.]

L.G. wrote: The point I'm trying to make though is that Superman is also headed in a darker direction - most likely because it worked so well for Batman. While there have been complaints, the most recent Superman movie was better received than its predecessor.
I think this goes right to the heart of the topic of this thread actually. I believe there is a section of people in the population that wants the Superman characters to leave their lofty principles behind and become more "realistic and believable". I also think some of the posts in this thread are challenging that not everybody likes that idea. There are still "supermen and superwomen" characters (some of whom aren't perfect), but who either stick to their principles or learn a new way. They triumph in spite of the overwhelming odds against them. Some people still like to read about or see films about these stories. I do, because they give me hope that humanity isn't doomed to fail. LOL.

Our collective consumer choices in what we like to read/watch have now caused Superman to fall from grace. That's just ... unbelievably sad. :(

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

S.J. wrote: "Our collective consumer choices in what we like to read/watch have now caused Superman to fall from grace. That's just ... unbelievably sad. :( "



True. And I refuse to be a part of it.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

You know, I read an article (can't locate now) that proposed that the reason Star Trek didn't do very well after the death of Roddenberry was related to hope.

The basic idea was the Roddenberry believed in a future where humans got their shit together. We were able to cure our ills before going to to play intergalactic Police.

After Roddenberry's death, the show(s) became very dark...and shortly pulled off-air. Because everything became dark.

[Paulo "paper books only"]

There are two instances in two different films that talk about the hero fall...

Spider-Man
(goblin and spider-man)
- You and I are not so different.
- I'm not like you. You're a murderer.
- Well, to each his own. I chose my path, you chose the way of the hero. And they found you amusing for a while, the people of this city. But the one thing they love more than a hero... is to see a hero fail, fall, die trying. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they will hate you. Why bother?
- Because it's right.
- Here's the real truth. There are eight million people in this city. And those teeming masses exist for the sole purpose...of lifting the few exceptional people onto their shoulders. You, me... we're exceptional. I could squash you like a bug right now. But I'm offering you a choice. Join me. Imagine what we could accomplish together. What we could create. Or we could destroy. Cause the deaths of countless innocents in selfish battle... again and again and again until we're both dead. Is that what you want? Think about it, hero. In spite of everything you've done for them, eventually, they will hate you.


Now for why Batman is better than Superman in my book...

Batman (Dark Knight)
(Batman and the Inspector)

- Gotham needs its true hero.
- No.
- You either die a hero... ...or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain. I can do those things... because I'm not a hero, not like Dent. I killed those people. That's what I can be.
- No, no, you can't. You're not.
- I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be. Call it in.
- A hero. Not the hero we deserved, but the hero we needed. Nothing less than a knight... shining. They'll hunt you.
- You'll hunt me. You'll condemn me. Set the dogs on me. Because that's what needs to happen. Because sometimes... the truth isn 't good enough. Sometimes people deserve more. Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded.
- Because we have to chase him. Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him... because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian..a watchful protector. A dark knight.