Fantasy Book Club discussion
General Chit-Chat
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Is fantasy getting darker?
Hmmm. Those older stories do have a lighter undertone, but only at first glance. At least that is how i see them. Maybe to bigger difference is that in older stories you have a clear distinction between good and bad guys and good prevail in the end. I personally don't like that. I love darker setting and morally gray characters!
But all in all, you are right, fantasy is darker and i love that!
it's that the new wave of fantasy emerging into greater prominence... IMO cos fantasy authors not only want to make their works more realistic, but I guess it is also a kind of effort to make fantasy into a more "literal" (closer in level? to general fiction), to elevate the genre a bit... in few words, so the genre gets taken more seriously among reading publicalso, with postmodern merging of genres and general dark mood in society it was only matter of time before it reflected in literature and fantasy as well
^A very smart way of putting things, that is:)
But fear not, we still have fireballs all is not lost as long as there are dragons!
And as we speak, somewhere far away, a prophecy is being made. About a child who will be born to darkness and have the power to drive it away! At least for a while, because evil always finds a way:)
I think that there are a fair number of "darker" fantasy stories being released these days (although I must point out that the Farseer trilogy and the Drizzt books came about in the '90s), but I don't see this as being necessarily negative. I like good dark art, and I don't see why fantasy should whitewash their tales in order to make the narrative more comfortable for people. I think, too, that the darkness we see in fantasy today is partly the result of newer authors being influenced by older authors like Leiber, Vance, and Moorcock who weren't afraid to bring the dark to fantasy.
Ya know, I don't think it is the authors, I think it is the publishers. Just like television, they get on the "this is what the public wants" bandwagon. Therefore, when you go into the fantasy section of the book store, you see a lot of books in the vein ASoIaF and Twilight. These are both massively popular and, therefore, assumed to be the only thing the public will read. Other, lighter fare, is often seen as ya or not worth reading. (It is the type I prefer. :)) So, yes, I certainly agree with you. I am not, however, happy about it. :D
Can we please not talk about twilight? That is a paranormal and has nothing to do with fantasy.
To Sonja's point, I had a critic recently tell me that publishers are not very interested in heroic stories right now, and prefer anti-heroes. I don't know how widespread that it, though.
Kevan, do they want their "anti-heros" to go on anti-quests? I think that if the content of the book is good, people will want to read it. Although...one of the afore mentioned books had little plot or structure, and its author made tons...
Guess we cant do away with quests in fantasy, can we? The new ones are about them too.The object of the quest may not be a physical thing like in LOTR, but its a quest nevertheless. Kelsier, Kvothe, Drizzt, Azoth, are all on some kind of personal quest.
Your point about books lacking structure & plot making millions is true and not limited to fantasy. As long as the end product appeals to the paying reader, it seems to sell. While preferences vary across the world, the US being the largest market often seems to determine commercial success of a novel.
I agree with a lot of what's been said--postmodern sensibilities, the influence of 'darker' giants like Lieber--but there are two more things I think contribute to the 'darkening' of fantasy worlds. The first is the deepening split between YA and mainstream fantasy. With marketing for each division of the genre essentially determining content as well as classification, it seems natural to me that more 'adult' books would grow darker. They're targeted to an older market, and less focused on awakening to and awareness of the surrounding world; they venture more deeply into the areas of struggle, tragedy and self-discovery. The second is that there's been a huge cultural shift since Tolkien. At the time he wrote, the things that broke people as individuals--abuse and personal tragedy--were spoken of only in private, and the threat of the Nazis meant that the world was far more focused on the events and forces that broke and reforged societies. Even so, it was rare that such focus was explicit in its portrayals; the darkest of the shadows Tolkien showed in "The Lord of the Rings" were still traced rather than plumbed, the atrocities declared rather than detailed. The lighter tone of "The Hobbit" set the stage for the world of "The Lord of the Rings," and those books were just as much about despair, suffering, and endurance as they were about evil itself.
Whew. Didn't mean to go on about it like that. And *Ginny, brilliant suggestion; I'd *love* to see an anti-hero on an anti-quest (the anti-hero's idea of an anti-quest would probably be considerably more interesting than mine, which involves books, a couch, and tea).
Excellent points, Sumi. As far as your second point goes, it has repeatedly been suggested that Tolkien's portrayal of the forces of Sauron were influenced by WWII(read:the Nazis), but I believe that Tolkien himself denied this. The comparison is striking, though, and one wonders if the influence of the bombing of GB subconciously made its way into his tale but was kept intentionally vague, due to the personal impact this had on many Brits.On a seperate note, if you want to read about an anti-hero on an anti-quest, check out the Cugel The Clever stories by Jack Vance, a part of his Dying Earth series. A brilliantly hilarious picaresque.
Sumi wrote: "... Whew. Didn't mean to go on about it like that ..."I'm glad you did, Sumi. Interesting points.
I've always (past few years) thought that a major milestone in this shift was the publishing of the Black Company by Glen Cook in 1984 which some call the origin of gritty fantasy (it is a personal favorite of mine as well so I'm biased to try to pronounce and defend it's importance/relevance). It is a story about truly grey characters with a large room for debate on who the villains actually are. Since then the true giants have appeared in Martin and Jordan and unfortunately Hobb. Now they've been followed and expanded on by Abercrombie, Sanderson, Lynch and many others. aSoIaF becoming a TV show made this shift even more pronounceI do think that the point made by many above, that authors and publishers are only writing and publishing these works, is valid, but I think it doesn't take into consideration the reason for this. Authors and publishers do this because of audience demand. Dark, gritty fantasy is now hugely popular. I know for me, and likely many others, once I realized that there were fantasy stories more complex and meaningful than good wizard with a scar beating noseless psychopath, my tastes changed considerably. I found myself much more entertained by these dark, morally ambiguous characters and stories, and I became almost disenchanted with tales that were too cute and straightforward.
True. Unfortunately, it is becoming a little formulaic now. A very young street child (often an orphan) get abused and sees various kinds of misery in the first first 100 pages. She/He then breaks out of it and becomes a morally ambiguous hero/anti-hero, and goes on to beat the heck out of the antagonist. This is common to the titles at mentioned at the top of the thread, and to some others.Now, the other issue is the subordination of the uniqueness of a story and its characters to this formula. I think the books end up worse off due to this.
Also, the transformation from back-and-white to shades of grey seems to apply more to the protagonist. The antagonists are still quite black.
To what extent is this darkening happening in other genres? I have not been able to detect such a pronounced darkening elsewhere.
You are right Kevan about the darkening and "adultness" of modern fantasy.Maybe it is because of the the plethora of YA books as suggested. Maybe society is darker nowadays as we have access to all the world's ills via media, 24 hours a day. Maybe it is all financial and publishers are driving the market.
I do think that you are right about the formulaic nature of fantasy and I think it is because that happens all the time. Sorry but the Twilight thing is relevant as it spawned loads of copy books. Same with every genre, someone sells loads of books about something and then for the following few years, every would be author jumps on the band wagon. Another example being 50 shades of grey.
They do say that there is no such thing as an original story and that every tale has been told before.
Kevan wrote: "To what extent is this darkening happening in other genres? I have not been able to detect such a pronounced darkening elsewhere. "I see it everywhere. Look at the movies - In my day (oh my - I sound like my grandfather), James Bond was a hero - he could conquer anyone and any thing with his bag of tricks. Now, he is angst ridden and fallible. I stopped watching the series when he was captured and had to be diplomatically released. So MUCH not the James Bond of my dreams.
I also see it in television. One of my favorite shows used to be Burn Notice. I loved the light hearted levity. And, again, now Michael is so angst ridden it is not fun.
To me, entertainment should make me smile and happy. Being sad, scared and/or tearful is not entertaining. I accept the fact that I appear to be alone in the crowd. But, I continue to search through my preferred genres in an effort to squeeze out more fun and less pain that what is the current perception of entertainment.
But, I like to think there are authors and producers out there who dream as I do. I do think the publishers are the limiting factor. It is a large part of the reason I seek out SPA and youtube. And why I want to smack Joss Whedon upside the head. All is fun in games and then he whacks someone . . .
I think, Kevan, that you're ignoring the fact that this has always happened. Uniqueness of story and character always get subordinated by the desires of the general public and publishers of the times. You can take this back way past the beginnings of modern fantasy, even back to Don Quixote. Cervantes released Don Quixote Part 1 and it was a hit, but the mass readership complained that there were too many side-stories and deviations from the main narrative. Then a copycat writer releases his own Don Quixote Part 2 with a generic set of "quixotic" adventures, minus all the side-plots. A year later, when Cervantes releases his official Don Quixote Part 2, even he bowed to public demand and scaled back the side-stories. All this in the very first novel!Getting back to fantasy, take a look at how formulaic fantasy was in the wake of Tolkien. The whole genre, with a few notable exceptions, was merely variations on Tolkien's theme. Now "darkness" is becoming a common theme in fantasy and people are starting to push back against it, but there were many of us for many years railing against the derivative "lightness" and frivolity of fantasy.
Kevan, you can definitely see this shift in the YA genre. I'm not even talking about the books with fantasy or paranormal aspect. John Green put out a book, "The Fault in Our Stars", rather recently where the main character fell in love while having a terminal illness. This is extremely sad, but was met by excitement of readers. I think the younger generation likes to read dark or sad books (the afore mentioned book and others like it have been called "sick-lit") because they are shielded from feeling those things in real life. That is just my opinion though.
Bryan wrote: "I think, Kevan, that you're ignoring the fact that this has always happened. Uniqueness of story and character always get subordinated by the desires of the general public and publishers of the ti..."True, this is the latest formulaic iteration. Much of fantasy for many years was Tolkien cloning. And the 'Dark Lord' aspect reached Sci Fi too. I guess I am lamenting the fact that we fall to becoming formulaic very quickly. I see this so much in Indian writing too (I live in India) - across genres. I guess the commercial aspect of exploiting a trend to the hilt is tempting.
But I have not seen darkness as a trend here as yet. Different parts of the world follow different cycles, I guess. A publisher was telling me today how different she finds the UK fantasy market from the US fantasy market.
I think I agree that the trend in darker fantasy is formulaic. But I also agree that it is reflecting modern culture. In some respects, fantasy has always mirrored the time it was written. It provides a "safe" place to explore ideas and situations that might be a little too close to home in general fiction.How do you guys think Terry Pratchett fits into the trend of darker fantasy?
I've written about this in my blog before--I believe fiction in general and fantasy/sci fi in particular tend to mirror the mood of people of the times. Let's face it--we're in a very angst-ridden time right now, with the world economy, climate changes, Middle East in turmoil, scary countries trying to discover the Bomb, etc. A lot of our national and international heroes have been smashed down and villified for their human errors. (Lance Armstrong is simply the latest). So why would it be any surprise that fantasy written right now mirrors this? We have no faith in the hero, so the anti-hero makes more sense. We've watched a world grow darker (or maybe we just have WAY too much information about bad things), so the worlds in books are darker.Just a thought.
Amanda wrote: "I think I agree that the trend in darker fantasy is formulaic. But I also agree that it is reflecting modern culture.How do you guys think Terry Pratchett fits into the trend of darker fantasy?..."
Amanda, I have read only a couple of his books. While Discworld may have very existential problems, the tone of the writing is light and humorous. It is a satirical commentary on some dysfunctional aspects of our real world, but the writing makes it feel very different. Interestingly, I was reading Light Fantastic last night, and considered a good break from the darker books I have been reading in the past couple of weeks.
So, from my limited exposure to Pratchett, I wouldn't say it is as dark as Drizzt, Way of Shadows, Kingkiller, etc. To me, Pratchett is a good way to escape from reality ... something like PG Wodehouse.
I think I agree that Pratchett is a needed lighthearted break from all the darker fantasy novels. Is the fantasy now darker than the science fiction was in the 60s and 70s? Fantasy is a different vehicle for a story than science fiction is so maybe they reflect society in different ways.
Lára wrote: "Hmmm. I guess it depends about what you mean by "dark". I don´t really remember when I read something that I would rate as dark, at least in fantasy genre. I am fan of fantasy and paranormal but I ..."I think (I may be wrong) that Kevan was actually talking about the growth of anti heroes and the increase of sex, violence and so on as opposed to the blending of the paranormal with fantasy.
Many fantasy fans however are a bit sick of the above mentioned blending. Many feel that the two should remain separate. Plus the growth of Twilight/YA paranormal fantasy although good to get younger readers involved, has meant the darkening and occasionally dumbing down of general, adult based fantasy. Which can be very annoying.
I beg to disagree with your opinion but fantasy is darker now than it was 30 years ago. By your romantic but not clear comments I am guessing you are still quite young and love all the modern paranormal based stuff. Not trying to be patronising but I am a selfish old git.......
Lára wrote: "Bev wrote: "Lára wrote: "And some say older means smarter. ;D"
Some do. Some say that young people can be quite scathing of others opinions without realising how patronising they sound or without realising how little they know on a subject before spouting rubbish...... :)
Kevan wrote: "Amanda wrote: "I think I agree that the trend in darker fantasy is formulaic. But I also agree that it is reflecting modern culture.How do you guys think Terry Pratchett fits into the trend of d..."
I recently read Terry Pratchett's Snuff. Although it does have humor, it deals with a dark topic - slavery and genocide.
Terry Pratchett's books are quite humorous, but I would not call them lighthearted. They often deal with serious subjects and good people/creatures/monsters still die in almost all of them.
Judy wrote: "I've written about this in my blog before--I believe fiction in general and fantasy/sci fi in particular tend to mirror the mood of people of the times. Let's face it--we're in a very angst-ridden ..."I agree. Fantasy mirrors the times and, to a degree, reflects the people's needs to examine themselves.
BTW: Tolkien was dark. Maybe not dark in the modern sense, but his LOTR is infused with hopelessness. After the saga ends, what is Frodo's future? Where do the elves go? It's all uncertain, but no real brightness in the end of the tunnel, even though the bad guy has been defeated and the ring destroyed. It all make sense if you think about the time it was written: during the WWII, when fascists rampaged across Europe. The entire generation came out of that war changed, damaged. Of course Tolkien, as a talented writer, couldn't help to reflect this in his stories.
Do folks believe that the present day is darker than Tolkien's times? The world immediately after WW2? Or darker than the cold war days or the missile crisis? I buy the point about role models letting us down.Middle East and terrorism not withstanding, I am not sure today is darker than recent history. Yes, there is a lot more information flow now than ever before ...
It seems to me that, although the world itself may not be any darker, it's certainly not any brighter either, despite the fact that the "good guys" won WWII. Remember, WWII was supposed to be the "Good War", the war to end fascism. And yet as time went on, and the flow of information intensified, we became aware that all was certainly not well on the Allies' side, either. There was Stalin, the nuclear bomb, concentration camps in North America, ect. And fasism certainly did not go away with the end of the Nazi regime.I suppose what I'm saying is that with the unprecedented access to information we have currently, everyone is beginning to realize-if they hadn't already-that there are rarely good guys and bad guys in real life, just people, and that the ideological justifications given for war are almost never the true reasons that governments enter conflicts. The world may not actually be a darker place than it was during or after WWII, but the general public is better informed, and thus more jaded and cynical than they once were.
Don't know about the world itself, its impossible to say objectively how dark(er) it is. Governments are as corrupt as they ever where, just use different terminology to label their scape goats.
Maybe its out outlook on it all that has changed, drastically. Like, did you ever watch Star Trek? The original one from 60-s?
I know it has nothing to do with fantasy, but it gives a good example on the whole mentality thing. It amazed me how more optimistic they where. From watching it, I got the feeling that they really believed they could change stuff....Don't know if it really was so, 60-s are waaaay before my time:)
Today's generation, we know: Resistance is futile. Cant change anything...So, yea...Jaded and cynical. Agreed.
@Kevan cangratz on making good, thought provoking thread.
Isn't the optimism of the original Star Trek also a reflection of the times? If society is feeling threatened (by communism, change, etc) they want hope. Even with the current trend of more cynical fantasy I don't think that has ever gone away. We still want the happy ending. Even though we tell ourselves that life is unfair and to deal with it, inside we want a happy ending. So I wonder if eventually we will see some more optimistic stories show up.I agree, very good thread.
Yes, fantasy is getting darker if you consider realism and graphic portrayal of that realism as darker. As others have alluded to, LOTR is a dark book; Tolkien just doesn't give us scene after scene of Sauron's forces pillaging, murdering, raping, and torturing the free peoples of middle-earth. We all know that is what Sauron's forces would be doing, but Tolkien didn't spend page after page showing it all to us in graphic detail. Now, a quarter of the book would have to have such scenes. Is that because our culture is more violent or authors need filler or publishers demand it? I don't have the answer. But I honestly think fantasy now could be called darker. Whether you like this new realism or not is just personal preference I suppose. As for me, the graphic violence has become like eating too much sugar: it has left me with no desire to taste the stuff again. So when a book starts the descent in graphic rape/torture whatever, I just skip it; Í don't read FANTASY for gritty realism I read it for escapism with enough realism mixed in so that I feel something about the characters/world. Thats just me though. Real interesting points of view in this topic though. Enjoyed each one.
Wendell wrote: "Yes, fantasy is getting darker if you consider realism and graphic portrayal of that realism as darker. As others have alluded to, LOTR is a dark book; Tolkien just doesn't give us scene after sce..."I agree about the escapism Wendell. Maybe the graphic stuff is creeping in because of the recent fad of erotic novels?
Bev wrote: Maybe the graphic stuff is creeping in because of the recent fad of erotic novels?I don't know; sex and violence *are* getting more graphic in almost every genre, but equating increased demand for eroticism with Wendall's references to the increase in portrayals of graphic violence in the form of rape and torture feels like a stretch to me. Now that I think about it, it seems to me that the rise of graphic violence predates the graphic sex by several years (I'm referring here to books in general, and not merely fantasy), perhaps because (in my view) a lot of people here in the US seem to view violence as more acceptable than sex in art.
Sumi wrote: "Bev wrote: Maybe the graphic stuff is creeping in because of the recent fad of erotic novels?I don't know; sex and violence *are* getting more graphic in almost every genre, but equating increased..."
I disagree, there has always been graphic violence within some fantasy and there has always been some sexual content in some fantasy. It just seems that at the same time that books like 50 shades have become mainstream so has the darkness increased in every way.
Coincidence?
Funny how the definition of "darkness" in fantasy has changed as the discussion has gone on in this thread. I agree with the points of many that there has always been "darkness" in fantasy.... evil beings/forces doing nasty things to "good" people that fight against them. I think there's no question that more modern fantasy authors are moving to combine the "good" and the "bad" into the same character rather than into two opposing ones - creating those "grey characters" that we all love so much. I actually don't consider that exceptionally different overall than what was done in the past. The "darkness" has just been redistributed a little...lol. I would agree though that modern fantasy is becoming too "dark" or "gritty" in the sense that it is much more graphically violent than it used to be. In my opinion, this is not an improvement in the genre. There are certain authors that I stopped reading because of this and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way. I think there will always be a market for readers like me who want to relax with a good book and enjoy it, rather than feel sick to their stomach over some of the stuff that happens in it.
I think there's a lot more graphic violence and sex in the media in general these days and a lot of fantasy reflects that trend. So I agree with what others have said here. I don't mind realism and I love anti-heroes, but there are times when it gets to be too much. There was so much detailed pillaging and rape in GRR Martin's Clash of Kings that I needed a break before continuing on to the next book.
I agree, S.J.; 'dark' does seem to have been redefined as 'graphic sex and violence' as the thread has gone on. My first post addressed 'darkness', but more on thematic terms.And Bev, there does seem to be a general trend of increased amounts of graphic...everything, in every genre. I think we're somewhat talking at cross-purposes; my definition of 'dark' doesn't encompass eroticism alone--but it does encompass the combination of sex and violence (as well as the broader themes in my first post). It seems to be a difference in personal definition.
General question: Can I get some opinions on how much overlap there is between the 'paranormal' and 'high fantasy' readerships (I don't read any 'paranormal')? I ask because Bev's mention of "Fifty Shades" started me thinking about the reciprocal influence the genres might have on each other (since Martin preceded James, who's a 'Twilight' reader, by about 15 years). Views?
Well, Sumi, it's funny you should ask that. When I first started a Goodreads account last month, I selected a bunch of genres I thought best represented my tastes in literature. Amongst the ones I chose were Paranormal; I was thinking of stuff like H.P. Lovecraft and M.R. James(they are chock full of paranormal/supernatural elements). However, when I went through the Paranormal section to rate books I had read, I discovered that I hadn't read a single one of them. Almost every cover of these books depicted a muscular naked male torso or a close-up shot of a woman's lipsticked mouth, and I thought to myself, "Hmm, maybe I don't know what a Paranormal novel is." I have seen some of these books on my wife's section of our bookshelf, though.Perhaps there is more overlap between these genre readerships amongst the female readers?
In addition to graphically showing violence, sex, etc, there is also the matter of describing misery in detail.I was reading Terry Goodkind last night - written in the 90s with the story following the Tolkien model. One striking aspect was the detailed description of the protagonist suffering. The world was not any darker than Middle Earth, but a lot more words were devoted to showing misery.
I find many of the newer books doing that - taking time and pages to describe explicit suffering ... bringing to the foreground what earlier authors chose to leave in the background or backstory.
Bryan wrote: "Well, Sumi, it's funny you should ask that. When I first started a Goodreads account last month, I selected a bunch of genres I thought best represented my tastes in literature....I was thinking of stuff like H.P. Lovecraft and M.R. James..."I don't know if there's more overlap between female genre-readers or not, since *I* don't read the genre (my tastes in general are catholic, but I've been told they're not typical). I find it interesting that you classed Lovecraft and James as 'paranormal', whereas I've always filed them mentally under 'horror'. (Maybe because I've never liked the word 'paranormal' itself...*wordgeek rant redacted*) Though I have to say your subtly scathing description of 'paranormal' covers is entertaining.
Disclaimer: I don't mean to 'hate on' a genre; there are well-written books in every one I've picked up, as well as abysmal ones. But there are some genres I read far more lightly and selectively than others, and anything involving 'romance' is one of them. (Which is probably why I'm struggling with cross-genre issues in my hybrid MS.)
And Kevan: You're right, and that's more what I was thinking of in my first post--the themes of endurance, suffering, and despair that I ascribed to Tolkien, on both societal and individual levels. I think that the focus on forces that tear apart individuals (as opposed to societies), has increased--or that the latter have become a subset of the former. My thought is that as everyone's experience of the world has 'zoomed' to individual, minute-by-minute and then second-by-second reporting, focus on the darkness of individual thoughts and experiences, whether epic or everyday, has also grown.
Sumi wrote: "My thought is that as everyone's experience of the world has 'zoomed' to individual, minute-by-minute and then second-by-second reporting, focus on the darkness of individual thoughts and experiences, whether epic or everyday, has also grown."I agree.
Fantasy books are more graphic because everything is more graphic today. Television, video games, movies, books, everything. I do not believe that the world itself is "darker" than in the past...we just are more exposed and connected to graphic human nature than in the past due to the pervasiveness of media. Because the general public was less exposed to human brutality in the past, we were able to idealize stories more easily. I don't really think LOTR is missing dark elements, but it was just more idealized. Today, readers are less patient with idealized fiction because it seems less "real."
It tend to view the more pronounced darkness of the fantasy genre as a addiction style deal. Alright, that was probably poorly phrased. What I mean is that it's the same as TV and other media, in that authors feel the need to up the dosage as a way of keeping interest. Hence the media gets darker and darker. Although, this is probably a dual-edged blade; the more they darken their story to attract readers, the more they chance putting readers off.However, I'm not as well versed in literature from the past (recent or not) as I would like, and therefore this judgement is based more on what makes sense in my head, as opposed to any meaningful insight from practical experience; feel free to discard these ideas if you wish.
Michele wrote: "Sumi wrote: "My thought is that as everyone's experience of the world has 'zoomed' to individual, minute-by-minute and then second-by-second reporting, focus on the darkness of individual thoughts ..."Michelle I agree with your comments. @ Summi I was not referring to sex, you actually didn't get what I was talking about.
Sumi wrote: "I agree, S.J.; 'dark' does seem to have been redefined as 'graphic sex and violence' as the thread has gone on. My first post addressed 'darkness', but more on thematic terms.And Bev, there does ..."
You definitely took one part of what I was talking about and turned it into eroticism only. I have read loads of fantasy over the last 30 some years. Michelle's comments above about the spread of media and the modernisation of fantasy through lack of idealism is what I was driving at.
What I currently dislike is the invasion of certain genres for titillations sake and the publishing world's drive to make money from a generation with spare cash.
Bev wrote: "What I currently dislike is the invasion of certain genres for titillations sake and the publishing world's drive to make money from a generation with spare cash."Do you mean the vampires? and werewolves? :D If so, I am in total agreement. I also think we are inundated with antiheroes - which I think more accurately defines what most people think as "dark" fantasy. You are correct in that the graphic sex (not erotica) and violence has been there for a while. But the whole delineation between good and bad is getting blurrier and blurrier. Once upon a time, heroes, while not perfect, at least had good motivations. That seems to no longer be the case.
I often wonder, though, at the popularity of super hero movies. Even though the characters are certainly flawed, these heroes actually seem to be the white knights of old.
While the entertainment seeks to push "realism" into every genre, I find the news real enough for me. When I read or watch or listen, I want to be entertained, and I want to know there is someone out there fighting the good fight and trying to make his world a better place. I do, often, feel as though I am alone in the crowd.
I don't know if anyone has read any Karen Miller books, but a couple of years ago I read the Innocent/Awakened Mage and enjoyed them quite a lot. I then went on to read Empress, the first book in her trilogy. The world building and characters were well thought out, but I had to stop reading because I found the book quite upsetting. I can tolerate darkness up to a point, but this book was too much for me. Did anyone else feel the same way about this book or any others?
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Robert Lynn Asprin (other topics)Robert Lynn Asprin (other topics)
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Take older epics like LOTR & Hobbit in comparison. The Shire is a happy place, and the story begins with some amount of joy. Rivendell is not bad either - Bilbo has great time there. Despite Sauron, Saruman and orcs, it is not entirely dark. Even in Harry Potter (1 to 4), the protagonist is happy most of the time at Hogwarts. Harry's broken childhood is largely a backstory.
Is it that readers now prefer darker stories?
Or is my comparison inappropriate? ... is adult fantasy is necessarily dark?