THE Group for Authors! discussion
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Why does it seem like authors hate each other so much?
Omar wrote: "Hannah wrote: "*smiles at Omar, Jon, and Kevin*Ah, guys! You know my heart only belongs to Jon....until he dies, then I'd move on to Kevin, since he is closer to my age. Sorry Omar!
Omar: Et tu, ..."
Wow. That was fun!
Barbara! Wouldst thou but consider gracing your humble servant with some small token of your colors? Grant but some indication towards whate'er foul knight afield this day might have offended you in any manner, great or small, and rejoice as I run him through. T'is but a small promise, but true.Jon of Neshoba
Knight of the Truncated Octodecagon Table
and
Author Behaving Badly
Barbara wrote: "Omar wrote: "Hannah wrote: "*smiles at Omar, Jon, and Kevin*Ah, guys! You know my heart only belongs to Jon....until he dies, then I'd move on to Kevin, since he is closer to my age. Sorry Omar!
..."
OK, I feel like chopped liver - just feed me to the three vultures.
Jon wrote: "Now, what might we use as horses??""The Holy Grail" comes to mind. Wooden broomstick horses followed by pages using coconuts to make the sound of horse's hooves. Might be a little tricky holding the rains, shield and lance.
Bicycles!
Jon wrote: "Frederick - I am in need of a squire."So ya a need of a lackey - some one to carry your Armour, shield, lance, take care of your horse and drag your butt off the field! I'll take it! Wait, how much do you pay sir?
Kevin - thanks for the heads up.Frederick - I both ride and pay in coconuts, if they're in season.
No doubt you have a lovely bunch of coconuts! I'm sorry Jon I can't accept your offer. The last guy I worked for was huge, gray, big ears and expected me to work for peanuts. At least I could feed myself but coconuts are a little harder nut to crack.Unless we reach some sort of agreement you'll just have to make your own horsey noise.
Kevin - that's very weird. I would love to know what their agenda was - what were they hoping to gain? Obviously they must have been trying to get something. Are they on Predators & Editors? Or can you find them on the Internet & find comments about their services? I'm certainly curious and would like to avoid being scammed, myself...
I would say for every one author I've run across that was needlessly mean, I've encountered 50 that were just wonderful, friendly and helpful. Mainly here, on Twitter and Facebook.YMMV
I think this is the perfect topic for me to pipe in and speak. I've been lurking for a while because I have had the same experience on the Amazon boards (KDP and Createspace). I have yet to have anyone respond to what I have said or worse, ask a real question and get no answer.I was afraid it would be the same here. Obviously it seems a tad more civil. The feel I get is the holier than thou syndrome. People want to tell other people they suck, their book looks like crap, "sorry, you need to start over" and only they are worthy of any praise. Arrogance is abundant over there and its worse than any clique I ever experienced growing up.
I have made a few connections only, and I speak with them and ask the new author kind of questions.
So, As I ramble and probably make quite a few grammar mistakes in this first draft, I just want to say I completely understand and that you are not alone.
Kevin wrote: "Ah, I wanted to tell all you guys something. It's very serious, and I don't want to start a new thread about it because I don't want *too* much attention getting brought to it.The only reason I'm..."
Very weird. I can't figure out where the profit was for these scammers---because they're certainly not on the level. Maybe that part was going to come later: asking you to subsidize their edition, for example, or selling you services. Still, it's a weird way of going about it. Do let us know who these people were if you can.
That's probably it. "Hey, you need some more professionally written reviews - we know someone who can help you with this!" Anyway, thanks for the heads up.
J.S. wrote: "I think this is the perfect topic for me to pipe in and speak. I've been lurking for a while because I have had the same experience on the Amazon boards (KDP and Createspace). I have yet to have a..."I agree; I've looked on the KDP boards too and have noticed that they seem to be dominated by a few people who post a LOT (when are they writing, one has to wonder?), and aren't very nice to other authors. "Critique" is a loose word! I think I'll stay here. :)
Hello, Rosalind. I'm Jon, and I hate you. That guy just above you is Steven (say "Hi"). I hate him, too, and he hates everybody. Nobody here gets along and we occasionally break out into swordplay.
swordplay is fun, especially if it can be used as an idea for part of a book ;)Hate.....as in in seething bitterness, it doesn't seem as likely. We know some of us (not all) are competition. And I can be one of the jealous ones just because I'm not up there in the ranks like some. I'm still playing in the kiddie pool as I learn.
The big process is, to be able to learn someone needs to be a teacher not a penguin with a ruler ;)
J.S. wrote: "...someone needs to be a teacher not a penguin with a ruler ..."OMG! You just described my fourth-grade teacher, Miss Ebinotia Mummelsome, may she rot in Hell.
if she used the ruler I would assume she expects to meet you there ;) I was not a favorite at my school either. Made it 1 whole year in catholic school. Now I feel the need to watch the Blues Brothers again
Jon wrote: "Hello, Rosalind. I'm Jon, and I hate you. That guy just above you is Steven (say "Hi"). I hate him, too, and he hates everybody. "Oh, no! I guess I'd better write my book instead! (About one week away . . . sprinting to the finish!)
Jon can come on a little strong, but just pour some sugar on him and he's sweeter. Like coffee....need....coffeee......
J.S. wrote: " We know some of us (not all) are competition. And I can be one of the jealous ones just because I'm not up there in the ranks like some."I suspect all of us struggle with those feelings. There's always somebody out there doing better (and they probably don't write as well as you do!) There's a reason jealousy/envy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. The difference is the STRUGGLE. If it were easy to resist doing the wrong thing, they wouldn't call it "temptation."
Hey KevinThey're nasty because they're unprofessional nobodies/professional ignoramuses who really think that writing is all about that stupid peer group pecking order thing they never got over in high school. They learned the techniques to win bozo points in college and then became pointless middle aged idiots with nothing better to do, so they're highly motivated. "Ooh, I'll write a bitchy little review full of pedantic crap and lousy usage, that'll impress everyone".
Jon has provided you with a sort of user manual for how to deal with them on a professional basis on this thread. They don't get real humor, and look progressively stupider on threads. They also couldn't write a post it note themselves, so you can see the stuffing coming out on long, brutal threads. Think of it as waste management, not honest professional criticism.
This topic is getting better by the minute.
Kevin wrote: No matter how much I tried to convince this person (even providing links to prove that my reviews were all legitimate), he continued to ridicule me and call me a wannabe and a fake writer.That happened to me too, Kevin, but happier outcome. I got a whole bunch of 5-stars at once on my first book, and somebody called me out in an Amazon forum (found by accident weeks later). The nice thing was that other readers said, hey, no, I read that book and it WAS good. I emailed the person and explained that I'd had a lot of book sales, which was why I'd had a lot of reviews, and she APOLOGIZED. Doesn't quite make up for being accused of fake reviews, but it was satisfying.
Amazon has deleted a couple of my reviews, but that's all, luckily. And I guess it's good that there are some negative ones up there too! The problem with you is, nobody hates your book! :)
Lest we overlook the obvious, you have been accused of not being an author because you allegedly composed and wrote more than fifty different reviews - presumably also inventing more than fifty different characters, registering them with Amazon, and doing it so believably that Amazon let them sign up for service. Don't you also have to register fifty different VALID credit card numbers with real shipping/billing addresses?If he's right and you're just an impostor, please PM me so I can write your life story.
Jon wrote: "Lest we overlook the obvious, you have been accused of not being an author because you allegedly composed and wrote more than fifty different reviews - presumably also inventing more than fifty dif..."You're right, Jon. How do they imagine we'd do that? If I knew that many people to write me 5-star reviews, I wouldn't be a writer, I'd be a politician! My actual friends don't like me that much!
You're dealing with a mentality which has a lot of common denominators. It's a pattern of abuse, and ad hom attacks are common. Kevin's post got me curious. I'm on Amazon myself, but I usually ignore the forums. I found this- A page of comments defining what seem to be a lot of cookie cutter routine behaviors. http://www.amazon.com/How-possibly-el... There are fake reviews, of course, and that's the excuse. It's a troll factory, and you have to wonder what all these charming souls mentioned in the posts, both the gushing admirers and the trolls, are doing there. Doesn't look like charity work to me. I do a lot of work writing about politics, and I see exactly the same sort of writing as the paid political writers. Don't know if you saw my previous comment, Kevin, but these people are scum. Whatever you say, they'll simply deny it and spin it back as an attack. Just keep writing and don't waste another thought on these damn insect droppings.
Well, at least you're selling and actually getting read. So many people don't. I've written a couple of Amazon reviews myself, and had no idea what I was doing the first time, even with millions of words online and being a pro commercial writer for ages. Reading them back they look a bit half baked. Better to get amateur reviews from honest people than those sleazy pro reviewers who find everything wonderful or everything crap. Just don't let it spoil your fun. The facts are on your side, and that's what matters.
Things to remember:1. John Lennon was popular.
2. Hemingway was a good writer.
3. Jeffrey Dahmer was ruled to be sane.
What's the common thread? If you guessed "Death", you are disqualified for guessing. On the other hand, if you boldly stood and proclaimed "Death...except for that Dahmer thing", you're right. 1. John Lennon was so popular, he was murdered. 2. Hemingway was so good, he killed himself. And (3), if Dahmer was sane, then why'd he kill and eat all those people? (Play the "Jeopardy" tick-tock music). Answer...ohh, I'm not gonna give away the surprise ending!
Just for the record, I am not a sleazey pro reviewer. I am a slutty pro reviewer. There is a difference. I am a pro reviewer and I really enjoy writing them to help out my fellow Indie authors, who are usually who I read. I find it a little offensive to lump pro reviewers all into one box. Stereotypical even. We get stereotyped as bad authors, because we are Indie. Let's not stereotype others as well.
Jeez, Kevin. So deep, so wrong. Here's the joke: If Dahmer was sane, then why'd he kill and eat all those people? ANSWER: He was hungry.
Kevin wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Kevin - that's very weird. I would love to know what their agenda was - what were they hoping to gain? Obviously they must have been trying to get something. Are they on Predators & Ed..."My take on this is that it was done by one of those accusing you of fake reviews. What better way to prove your reviews were fake than by challenging you to get reviews on demand? By asking your fans for those reviews, you've proven that person's point: you can get reviews as needed, so they must be fake.
I also agree with you that some of your reviews do look fake. One review here on GR is by someone who starts off by saying she hates reading and hasn't read a book in over three years, then not only reads yours, but leaves a glowing one page review, twice: once for each edition.
So, the moral of the story is that you have a very loyal fan base. If you get your followers to give each of us a dozen 5 star reviews we'll walk away quietly and promise to keep our mouths shut. If not, I know a guy named John who is in the same line of work as Dahmer, just the killing part, not the other stuff, who may cross your path one day....
Hannah wrote: "Just for the record, I am not a sleazey pro reviewer. I am a slutty pro reviewer. There is a difference. I am a pro reviewer and I really enjoy writing them to help out my fellow Indie authors, who..."Hannah- My earlier post referred to honest criticism. That post refers only to the paid-to-be-nasty brigade.
Kevin wrote: "Omar wrote: "Kevin wrote: "K.A. wrote: "Kevin - that's very weird. I would love to know what their agenda was - what were they hoping to gain? Obviously they must have been trying to get something...."Bia. She starts off the review with:
First, you need to know that I'm not a reader. I hate reading.
Bia. She starts off the review with:First, you need to know that I'm not a reader. I hate reading.
I had one in the UK who said something like, I haven't read a book in ten years, but I read this one and I loved it. And it was a MAN. That one looked fake! But it wasn't! "C'est la vie, say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell."
Or as Roseanne Roseannadanna would say "it just goes to show you, it's always something--if it ain't one thing, it's another."
I have come across this author bitterness as well. I personally feel that sometimes, when a writer thinks his stuff isn't good enough, he likes to pick on someone who might be better even if he didn't take a look at that someone's work. I do go to Createspace or Kindle boards for advice regarding those things only. I don't hang out there. Personally, I don't feel that's what those boards are for.I prefer places like here at Goodreads, or other blogs and writing-related websites, or even Facebook. Incidentally, try this writer's site, and tell them I recommended it to you: http://www.viciouswriters.net/
Vicious Writers is a private site, open to all serious writers not afraid of real critiques. It's also "new", but the group is a re-emerging one. The group shut down about a year ago, as did it's publishing house Key Publications Network, but the group has leanings that go back around ten years or so where it first grouped on the Writer's Cafe.
Anyway, I have personally been met with a bit of hostility by other writers even when I didn't do anything. What I find more intolerable is how indie writers don't support the work of other indie writers. I tend to buy my writer associates' books, but they rarely do it in return...even when I offer it for free. I might download a Kindle for free, but for many I have spent money on the hard copies. But get no support in return. It makes me feel...odd.
When my fellow writers post on Facebook, etc., I support them to my friends and fans. I don't get support from them. I've posted work that they never comment on, but then I'll still go comment on theirs. It's disheartening, but i do it for their readers and mine.
My take on the question of meanness, though I haven't experienced it myself, is competition. I think it brings out the 'animal' in some, like a cat when you try to take away its food. It's a survival mechanism honed by eons of evolution.
Its so funny because I've had 2 reviews taken down which frustrated the crap out of me, but oh well. At least no trolls....yet. I'm waiting. I'm an indie making it through this lovely little marketing world alone, so even though I've sold quite a few books......getting a review is a different thing. People are very stingy with them. I'm getting my paperback out soon which I've already had requests for. Lets hope that changes.Seems like those people are just children. Heck I'm good for a review, if its a 1 star then by golly gee it better be for a certain reason or I KNOW a person didn't read the book. I've been giving my book away to a few potential reviewers, but never forcing them to read and some have declined to to length or content. Oh well. I gave up on Amazon boards. Too snooty. I like Snotty like Jon. THAT I can deal with ;)
Oh, and I remember talking about coffee earlier. I could so use that. Really really bad. I'm looking like all those grumpy cat pictures.
How do you get a bad review taken down?
J.S. wrote: "I gave up on Amazon boards. Too snooty. I like Snotty like Jon. ..."Oh, you Brits are supah. Simply sooopah!
Ronwheatley3gmail.com wrote: "How do you get a bad review taken down?"The hard part is making it look like an accident.
I'm only half brit by American standards (I REFUSE I say REFUSE to give up either citizenship mmmwwaaahhhaaahhhaaa), but I got the dry sarcasm and whimsy from that end ;)@Ronwheatley - there's always a good price for an "accident"
Watch out Jon. Someone else could be planning your untimely end.
Books are not a zero sum game. People can read your book and mine. So why not be decent to one another?