Paradiso 4: Three Questions

[Laurel]

Reynolds/Sayers:

THE STORY. The words of Piccarda have aroused in Dante two doubts: (1) if both she and Constance were forcibly prevented from fulfilling their vows, how can they be on that account less deserving of beatitude? (2) Piccarda spoke of the moon as her allotted sphere; was Plato then right after all in teaching that souls returned to the stars after death? Beatrice explains that all the souls of the blessed dwell only in the Empyrean, where all share “one sweet life, diversified”. They have appeared to Dante in the moon not because they reside there but in order that their less exalted state may thus be signified to him. His doubt concerning heavenly justice is removed when Beatrice distinguishes between what we wish to do and what, under pressure, we consent to do, for “our least acquiescence signs a pact with force.” Dante’s mind, now clarified as to his two doubts, conceives yet a third: can man by good works render satisfaction for unfulfilled vows? To this Beatrice gives her answer in Canto V.

THE IMAGES. The resolving of Dante’s dilemma and the allaying of his doubts: In the story, the discourses by Beatrice upon existence in Heaven and upon absolute and qualified will are occasioned by words uttered by Piccarda in the preceding Canto. Allegorically the freeing of Dante from the paralysis of his will, and the illuminating of his mind by revealed theology (Beatrice), represents a step forward in the soul’s progress towards God. The desire of the mind for knowledge and understanding is in itself a natural image of the desire of the soul to see God; in another sense the two desires may be seen to be identical, since the mind can be satisfied only by the ultimate Truth, which is God. Throughout Paradise, Dante’s advancement in understanding is a symbol and a measure of his progress towards his ultimate vision in the last canto.

[Lily]

And the three questions are? (I haven't read Canto 4 yet.) Incidentally, this is Shrove Tuesday -- so it is head out for pancakes and ice cream sundaes, with Lent starting tomorrow.

Here is Dali:

http://www.lockportstreetgallery.com/...



Salvador Dali: Paradiso Canto 4. “Beatrice Resolves Dante’s Doubts.”

As Beatrice wags her finger, "Now, see here, Dante, it's like this..." (Sorry, I'm in an irreverent mood this afternoon.)

[Lily]

http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...



John Flaxman: Paradiso Canto IV.22. “Souls Appear to Return to Stars According to Plato’s Teaching.” 1793. Engraving.

We are back revisiting our friend Plato.

Canto 4.10-63 (Hollander)(view spoiler)[

I kept silent, but my longing
and my questions all were painted on my face
more ardently than words could have expressed.

Beatrice did what Daniel did
when he freed Nebuchadnezzar from his wrath,
which had made him cruel unjustly,

by her words: 'It is clear to me you feel the pull
of two desires, so that your divided craving
binds itself so tight it can't breathe out.

'You reason: "If the will does not even waver
in devotion to the good, how can the violence
of another reduce my measure of reward?"

'Still another cause for your perplexity
is that you think, in accord with Plato's teaching,
the souls return to their own stars.

'These are the questions that weigh equally
upon your will. First I shall deal
with the one that has more venom in it.

'Not the Seraph that most ingods himself,
not Moses, Samuel, or whichever John you please --
none of these, I say, not even Mary,

'have their seats in another heaven
than do these spirits you have just now seen,
nor does their bliss last fewer years or more.

'No, all adorn the highest circle --
but they enjoy sweet life in differing measure
as they feel less or more of God's eternal breath.

'Those souls put themselves on view here
not because they are allotted to this sphere
but as sign of less exalted rank in Heaven.

'It is necessary thus to address your faculties,
since only in perceiving through the senses can they grasp
that which they then make fit for intellect.

'For this reason Scripture condescends
to your capacity when it attributes hands and feet
to God, but has another meaning,

'and for your sake Holy Church portrays
Gabriel and Michael with the faces of men
and that other angel who made Tobit well again.

'What Timaeus has to say about the souls
does not resemble what one here observes
because he seems to take his words for facts.

'He claims the soul returns to its own star,
from which he thinks that it was drawn
when nature gave it bodily form.

'But perhaps his meaning differs
from what his words seem to express
and may have an intention not lightly mocked.

'If he intends to assign to these wheels
the honor of their influence and the blame,
then his shaft may strike a certain truth.

'This principle, wrongly understood, once misled
nearly all the world so that it went astray
and named stars Jupiter, Mercury, and Mars. (hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

Okay, who is "Timaeus"? (Line 49.) Okay, answer my own question, not "who" but "what" (one of Plato's dialogues).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timaeus_...


I find no Doré and no Blake for Canto IV.

[Lily]

For Paradiso Canto IV images from the Bodleian Library 14th century manuscript try these:

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwms...

Paradiso, Canto IV. "Dante and Beatrice Conversing."

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwms...

Paradiso, Canto IV. "Beatrice and Dante Conversing."

[Laurel]

Lily wrote: "And the three questions are? (I haven't read Canto 4 yet.)"

1. If we're forced to not fulfill our vow, why is the degree of our reward less?
2. Do our (saved) souls return to our birth star?
3. Can we mend our broken vows by doing good works?

Beatrice answers the second question first, 4.1-63, and then the first question, 4.64-117. She saves the third question for canto 5.

And the answer to the second question is?

The answer to the first question?

[Roger]

The answer to the first question seems to be this: The souls were forced to break their vows, but at some point their will ceased fighting and acquiesced. But remember that their eternal bliss is not lessened, because their desire is entirely for the position they're in. It's just a less exalted position.

[Lily]

Laurele wrote: "...2. Do our (saved) souls return to our birth star?... And the answer to the second question is? ..."

It seems to be in these lines (Hollander), but am not certain I correctly extract their meaning. (I think it means they do not "literally" return to "their star", but there may be some mystic truth that is exemplified by how people have reacted [in naming planets, for example, which were still believed to emit their own light, rather than being simply surfaces for reflection].):

'What Timaeus has to say about the souls
does not resemble what one here observes
because he seems to take his words for facts.

'He claims the soul returns to its own star,
from which he thinks that it was drawn
when nature gave it bodily form.

'But perhaps his meaning differs
from what his words seem to express
and may have an intention not lightly mocked.

'If he intends to assign to these wheels
the honor of their influence and the blame,
then his shaft may strike a certain truth.

'This principle, wrongly understood, once misled
nearly all the world so that it went astray
and named stars Jupiter, Mercury, and Mars.'

[Laurel]

Lily wrote: "Laurele wrote: "...2. Do our (saved) souls return to our birth star?... And the answer to the second question is? ..."

It seems to be in these lines (Hollander), but am not certain I correctly ext..."

I think she's saying that Plato was either wrong or meant something different from what his words seem to express ( nice way to put it, Beatrice). The stars under which we were born ( says she) might determine our tendencies, but we have free will and thus can choose to go against those tendencies.

Is that how others read it?

[Thomas]

I think Beatrice means that souls don't actually return to the stars, just as the souls that appear in the stars (such as Piccarda) do not actually reside there. Souls in Paradise are with God in the Empyrean, but they appear as "signs" in the lower spheres, since only through sense perception can Dante apprehend what he will later understand with the intellect. I think we are still in the realm of allegory here, and the physical structure of Paradise must be taken symbolically.

[Laurel]

Thomas wrote: "I think Beatrice means that souls don't actually return to the stars, just as the souls that appear in the stars (such as Piccarda) do not actually reside there. Souls in Paradise are with God in t..."

Oh, good. Thanks, Thomas.

[[deleted user]]

"Three Questions"

On reading those words I couldn't help but think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

"Answer me these questions three,
ere the other side you see."

Although it's Dante ASKING questions, not answering them here, there IS the fact that Dante won't get to the other side of Paradise without asking...and probably answering questions....

Makes me think back to Inferno, Canto IV: Virgil to Dante: "You do not ask." Mmmm. Dante's STILL not asking. Beatrice, like Virgil, reads his mind.

[[deleted user]]

"Doubts or Desires" Canto IV, line 6/16

"If, then, I stood there mute,
drawn equally by my two doubts..." (Musa)

"She said, 'I see how you are torn
between your two desires, so that
your eagerness is choking itself into speechlessness.'"

The doubts put me in mind of Doubting Thomas. Dante himself has undergone a pretty mircaculous journey...but but his desire is still for explanations ... he hasn't made the transformation of moving ahead on faith...

And it would seem that the fact that he has doubts in some ways incapacitates him... renders him incapable of moving forward...

He does need Beatrice to help him.

[[deleted user]]

"Poisonous Doctrine"

Beatrice says, line 26, "I first shall treat the [question] that is more poisonous."

WHY is that question the more poisonous? I know Beatrice says, line 50, "it contradicts the truth we witness here," but Dante's believing that there those he sees on the Moon are somehow "less" than those further up contradicts the truth too.

[[deleted user]]

"Faint" (last line)

"with eyes cast down,
I was about to faint."

Surely, these instances of Dante fainting...in Inferno..etc...must mean something.

Is it that he cannot move on to the next level with his consciousness engaged? Is it something else?

[[deleted user]]

@14 Adelle wrote: ""Poisonous Doctrine"



OK. I found an answer. From Critical Companion: (view spoiler)[

"Dante did not know the Timaeus directly...but through a translation... Thus Dante's understanding of the Timaeus goes beyond what Plato actually said....

All souls, as Dante understands it, preexisted in the stars before being placed into human bodies, and each soul returned to its same individual star upon the body's death.

The fact that the souls of the inconstant reside in the Moon makes it appear to Dante as if Plato's doctrine is true.

This doctrine, attractive to many in the early church, was specifically declared heretical at the Council of Constantinople in 540 C.E., when it was decided that each soul was specially created by God at the birth of the individual.

But the real shortcoming of Plato's doctrine is its denial of free will--if the soul is predestined to return to the same star as whence it sprung, then human choice on Earth becomes meaningless.

(hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Roger wrote: "The answer to the first question seems to be this: The souls were forced to break their vows, but at some point their will ceased fighting and acquiesced. But remember that their eternal bliss is..."

This position is apparently from Thomas Aquinas.

"...Thomas Aquinas (citing the authority of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics) asserts that actions performed through fear are 'voluntary rather than involuntary' actions" (ST 1.2). [The Alcmaeon example is from Aristotle.]" (from Companion to Dante, page 184).

[Laurel]

Adelle wrote: ""Three Questions"

On reading those words I couldn't help but think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

"Answer me these questions three,
ere the other side you see."

Tolstoy wrote a story with that title. I also thought of Bilbo and Gollum. And your post made me think of Parsifal, or Purceval, who did not ask the question that would lead to healing. Any questions to pop today?

Although it's Dante ASKING q..."

[Laurel]

Adelle wrote: "@14 Adelle wrote: ""Poisonous Doctrine"



OK. I found an answer. From Critical Companion:

"Dante did not know the Timaeus directly...but through a translation... Thus Dante's understanding..."

Thanks, Adelle! She who is not afraid to ask shall find the answer.

[Lily]

Great conversation! Thank you, all!

I especially noted this phrase from Adelle in msg 13: "And it would seem that the fact that he has doubts in some ways incapacitates him... renders him incapable of moving forward..."

A great reminder that we are dealing here with a faith journey.

http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...



Sandro Botticelli: Paradiso Canto IV.1. “First Planetary Sphere (Heaven of the Moon); Beatrice Explains to Dante Where the Blessed Reside.” c.1480 - c.1495. Drawing.

[Lily]

http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...



Giovanni di Paolo: Paradiso Canto 4.13. “Dream of Nebuchadnezzar.” c.1450. Manuscript illumination. Yates Thompson 36. British Library.

(Mislabeled 4.43 on The World of Dante site.)

Canto 4.10-18 (Hollander)(view spoiler)[

I kept silent, but my longing
and my questions all were painted on my face
more ardently than words could have expressed.

Beatrice did what Daniel did
when he freed Nebuchadnezzar from his wrath,
which had made him cruel unjustly,

by her words: 'It is clear to me you feel the pull
of two desires, so that your divided craving
binds itself so tight it can't breathe out. (hide spoiler)]

Daniel II, NRSV (view spoiler)[

In the second year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, Nebuchadnezzar dreamed such dreams that his spirit was troubled and his sleep left him. 2 So the king commanded that the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans be summoned to tell the king his dreams. When they came in and stood before the king, 3 he said to them, ‘I have had such a dream that my spirit is troubled by the desire to understand it.’ 4 The Chaldeans said to the king (in Aramaic), ‘O king, live for ever! Tell your servants the dream, and we will reveal the interpretation.’ 5 The king answered the Chaldeans, ‘This is a public decree: if you do not tell me both the dream and its interpretation, you shall be torn limb from limb, and your houses shall be laid in ruins. 6 But if you do tell me the dream and its interpretation, you shall receive from me gifts and rewards and great honour. Therefore tell me the dream and its interpretation.’ 7 They answered a second time, ‘Let the king first tell his servants the dream, then we can give its interpretation.’ 8 The king answered, ‘I know with certainty that you are trying to gain time, because you see I have firmly decreed: 9 if you do not tell me the dream, there is but one verdict for you. You have agreed to speak lying and misleading words to me until things take a turn. Therefore, tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can give me its interpretation.’ 10 The Chaldeans answered the king, ‘There is no one on earth who can reveal what the king demands! In fact no king, however great and powerful, has ever asked such a thing of any magician or enchanter or Chaldean. 11 The thing that the king is asking is too difficult, and no one can reveal it to the king except the gods, whose dwelling is not with mortals.’

12 Because of this the king flew into a violent rage and commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be destroyed. 13 The decree was issued, and the wise men were about to be executed; and they looked for Daniel and his companions, to execute them. 14 Then Daniel responded with prudence and discretion to Arioch, the king’s chief executioner, who had gone out to execute the wise men of Babylon; 15 he asked Arioch, the royal official, ‘Why is the decree of the king so urgent?’ Arioch then explained the matter to Daniel. 16 So Daniel went in and requested that the king give him time and he would tell the king the interpretation.

17 Then Daniel went to his home and informed his companions, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, 18 and told them to seek mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that Daniel and his companions with the rest of the wise men of Babylon might not perish. 19 Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision of the night, and Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

20 Daniel said:
‘Blessed be the name of God from age to age,
for wisdom and power are his.
21 He changes times and seasons,
deposes kings and sets up kings;
he gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to those who have understanding.
22 He reveals deep and hidden things;
he knows what is in the darkness,
and light dwells with him.
23 To you, O God of my ancestors,
I give thanks and praise,
for you have given me wisdom and power,
and have now revealed to me what we asked of you,
for you have revealed to us what the king ordered.’

24 Therefore Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, ‘Do not destroy the wise men of Babylon; bring me in before the king, and I will give the king the interpretation.’

25 Then Arioch quickly brought Daniel before the king and said to him: ‘I have found among the exiles from Judah a man who can tell the king the interpretation.’ 26 The king said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, ‘Are you able to tell me the dream that I have seen and its interpretation?’ 27 Daniel answered the king, ‘No wise men, enchanters, magicians, or diviners can show to the king the mystery that the king is asking, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has disclosed to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen at the end of days. Your dream and the visions of your head as you lay in bed were these: 29 To you, O king, as you lay in bed, came thoughts of what would be hereafter, and the revealer of mysteries disclosed to you what is to be. 30 But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me because of any wisdom that I have more than any other living being, but in order that the interpretation may be known to the king and that you may understand the thoughts of your mind.

31 ‘You were looking, O king, and lo! there was a great statue. This statue was huge, its brilliance extraordinary; it was standing before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32 The head of that statue was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 As you looked on, a stone was cut out, not by human hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, were all broken in pieces and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 ‘This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king, the king of kings—to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the might, and the glory, 38 into whose hand he has given human beings, wherever they live, the wild animals of the field, and the birds of the air, and whom he has established as ruler over them all—you are the head of gold. 39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these. 41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so will they mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from the mountain not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. The great God has informed the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation trustworthy.’

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face, worshipped Daniel, and commanded that a grain-offering and incense be offered to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, ‘Truly, your God is God of gods and Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you have been able to reveal this mystery!’ 48 Then the king promoted Daniel, gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon and chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon. 49 Daniel made a request of the king, and he appointed Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego over the affairs of the province of Babylon. But Daniel remained at the king’s court. [Bold added.] (hide spoiler)]

[Lily]

http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...



Giovanni di Paolo: Paradiso Canto 4.82. “Martyrdom of St. Lawrence.” c.1450. Manuscript illumination. Yates Thompson 36. British Library.

I presume that is Mucius Scaevola on the right, the classical figure, a young man of ancient Rome, who vowed to kill Porsenna and let his right hand be consumed by fire when its thrust missed the mark.

Paradiso Canto 4.70-90 (Hollander) (view spoiler)[

'Since your human understanding is quite able
to penetrate this truth,
I shall content you as you wish.

'Even if violence is done when the one who bears it
in no way consents to the one who deals it out,
these souls were not excused on that account.

'For the will, except by its own willing, is not spent,
but does as by its nature fire does in flame,
though violence may force it down one thousand times.

'Thus, if it stays bent, whether much or little,
it then accepts that force, as indeed did these,
since they could have retreated to their holy place.

'Had their will remained unbroken,
as did the will that fastened Lawrence to the grate
and which made Mucius harsh to his own hand,

'then, once freed, it would have drawn them back
along the path from which they had been dragged.
But will so firm is all too rare.

'And these words, if you have correctly understood them,
have destroyed an argument
that would have often troubled you again. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

Lily, I find that I very much like the colorfulness of di Paolo.

[[deleted user]]

Laurele wrote: "

Tolstoy wrote..."

Nice, Laurele. I found the overview of Tolstoy's story on Wikipedia. Liked it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thre...

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Lily, I find that I very much like the colorfulness of di Paolo."

Oops, I lost a post. Let me see if I can quickly reconstruct before I need to get to a meeting. Yes, I too, love the work of the miniaturists with their deep, vivid colors. (I have two Book of Hours reproductions I cherish in my own library collection.) I am grateful the British Library makes so many of its precious collection of manuscripts available online. What a gift to the world!

Here is a link to some information on di Palo and the Yates Thompson Manuscript from "The World of Dante" page (note the suggested reading at the end):

http://www.worldofdante.org/gallery_y...

[[deleted user]]

Oh, wow! How beautiful!

[[deleted user]]

Regarding the swoon. For those who enjoy commentary, I like this. I don't believe it covers the swooning entirely---because Dante swooned crossing the river into the Inferno and I think he swooned or fell asleep and was lifted?? in Purgatory. Still, I found this interesting.

(view spoiler)[

I found this in Critical Companion to Dante.

"Dante's near-swoon at the end of Canto 4 is also worth noting. It recalls his swoon after speaking with Francesca in Canto 5 of the Inferno. The swoon here is intended to recall that earlier incident {Adelle: yes, I can believe that.} and encourage readers to see the parallels between Piccarda and Francesca: Each woman is the first contemporary figure the pilgrim meets in their respective canticles.

Both women discourse upon the power of love. Francesca, who speaks of 'Love, that excuses no loved from loving' (Inf. 5.103), presents amorous love as irresistably drawing her to desire Paolo, as it compelled him to love her.

This kindled desire is in their case an irresistibly destructive force.

Piccarda, on the other hand, describes 'the virtue of our heavenly love,' which makes the souls in the sphere of the Moon 'want no more/ than what we have' (Par. 3.70).

Divine love is not about destructive desire..."

{Ah!!! Thomas! There's that 'desire' you brought to my attention.).

So would one have free will to direct one's desires toward earthly pleasures or heavenly virtures???

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matt 6:21).

Explained online as "If God be the treasure of our souls, our hearts, i.e. our affections and desires will be placed on things above.

I can see Dante making this point. (hide spoiler)]

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: " Incidentally, this is Shrove Tuesday -- so it is head out for pancakes and ice cream sundaes, with Lent starting tomorrow."

Can we suggest that members of this group give up all reading other than the Bible and the Divine Comedy for Lent? [g]

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "As Beatrice wags her finger..."

Hmmm. The first image that came to mind for me was the famous Raphael painting of Aristotle and Plato, Aristotle pointing down to earth and Plato (aka Beatrice?) pointing up to the Heavens.

[Everyman]

Roger wrote: "The answer to the first question seems to be this: The souls were forced to break their vows, but at some point their will ceased fighting and acquiesced. But remember that their eternal bliss is..."

But is anybody really forced to break their vows? What if Piccarda had just refused to leave the nunnery -- would they have entered the nunnery and removed her by force? Or would the nuns have rejected her? And what if she had just refused to take the wedding vow, but had declared before the priest brought in to marry her that there was indeed an insuperable impediment to her marriage in that she was already married to Christ?

How does one go about divorcing Christ, anyhow?

Given the example of the early martyrs who preferred death to renouncing their faith, didn't she actually have a choice? Not an easy one, I certainly agree, but at least a choice?

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "Okay, who is "Timaeus"? (Line 49.) Okay, answer my own question, not "who" but "what" (one of Plato's dialogues)."

Actually, both a what and also a who. He was an Italian (it is believed, though some argue that Plato invented him, but I doubt that since so many of Plato's other protagonists are actual people) philosopher who was one of the participants in the dialogue that bears his name (and was also a participant in the Critias.

As an off-topic but perhaps interesting aside, it is in the Critias that Plato discusses Atlantis.

[Everyman]

Adelle wrote: "But the real shortcoming of Plato's doctrine is its denial of free will--if the soul is predestined to return to the same star as whence it sprung, then human choice on Earth becomes meaningless."

For Christians, yes, since Christians' souls are judged worthy or not worthy of Heaven based on their deeds and acts on earth.

But for Plato, it wasn't so; your deeds on earth had little to do with your place in the afterworld.

[Thomas]

Socrates seems to believe that deeds make a difference, if the Myth of Er in the Republic is to be believed. (I'm not sure that it is, or if it is, that this is Plato's belief as well.)

[[deleted user]]

Everyman wrote: "
But for Plato, it wasn't so; your deeds on earth had little to do with your place in the afterworld."

So...if Plato viewed one's deeds as having little to do with one's place in the afterworld...did Plato believe in pre-destination?

(I never read his description of souls returning to the stars they came from.)

Well, for what it's worth, from Timaeus: "Each soul was assigned a star (41d); if a person lived well, upon the death of the body the soul would return and dwell in his home star; if not, then the soul would be reincarnated (42a-c). " http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/grphil/p...

Mmmm...and that seems to pertain to both sets of belief, yes? no?

It seems to say that a life well-lived is the life to live, ie, that one's actions in life can affect one's afterlife.

And yet, there also seems to be an aspect of pre-destination about it... no matter how good or worthy or well-lived one's life is, one returns only to the star from whence one began.

Are there other "better" "higher" stars?

And if there ARE "better" stars, does one have a better chance of ending up there if (1) one lives a less than good life on earth, and (2) is then reincarnated...

Is one reincarnated with source material from a different star?

Or from source material from the first star of origination??



Just mulling.

[Lily]

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "As Beatrice wags her finger..."

Hmmm. The first image that came to mind for me was the famous Raphael painting of Aristotle and Plato, Aristotle pointing down to earth and Plato (aka..."

http://hum120.files.wordpress.com/201...

That one?

Detail:
http://www.webphoto.ro/italia/school-...#

(Note the commentary, other figures, location in the Vatican, ....)

Thx for calling to our attention, Eman.

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "...The doubts put me in mind of Doubting Thomas. Dante himself has undergone a pretty mircaculous journey...but but his desire is still for explanations ... he hasn't made the transformation of moving ahead on faith......"

Having been working on the images, I suspect that is good foreshadowing for our story, Adelle!

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Explained online as "If God be the treasure of our souls, our hearts, i.e. our affections and desires will be placed on things above.

I can see Dante making this point...."

From Lenten study today of the Beatitudes:

Matthew 5:8

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God."

Discussed from the viewpoint that what you focus upon influences the parts of life you see and how you participate.

http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matt...

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "..."

From Lenten studies..."

Very nice, as the light of the souls in Paradise varied depending on what had influenced them...how they had acted on their values.

Thanks, Lily.

(liked the painting, too)

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "That one?"

Yep!

[Lily]

I read Canto IV for the Xth time this morning and found that the lines 64ff seemed like a commentary by Beatrice on some of the arguments about rape and violence that we have seen discussed around Hardy's Tess of the d'Urbervilles and the squabbles and babbling of certain politicians recently -- what is violence and what is giving in to violence:

(view spoiler)[Paradiso Canto IV, Lines 64-132 (Hollander translation)

64 'The other doubt that troubles you
contains less venom because its harm
could not lead you away from me.

'For divine justice to appear unjust
in mortal eyes is evidence of faith,
not of heretical iniquity.

'Since your human understanding is quite able
to penetrate this truth,
I shall content you as you wish.

'Even if violence is done when the one who bears it
in no way consents to the one who deals it out,
these souls were not excused on that account.

'For the will, except by its own willing, is not spent,
but does as by its nature fire does in flame,
though violence may force it down one thousand times.

'Thus, if it stays bent, whether much or little,
it then accepts that force, as indeed did these,
since they could have retreated to their holy place.

'Had their will remained unbroken,
as did the will that fastened Lawrence to the grate
and which made Mucius harsh to his own hand,

'then, once freed, it would have drawn them back
along the path from which they had been dragged.
But will so firm is all too rare.

'And these words, if you have correctly understood them,
have destroyed an argument
that would have often troubled you again.

'But now before your eyes you find
another obstacle, so vast that your attempt
to overcome it on your own would leave you spent.

'Assuredly I have set it firmly in your mind
that a soul in bliss could never tell a lie,
since it is always near the primal Truth.

'But then you may have heard Piccarda say
that Constance kept her true love for the veil,
so that in this she seems to contradict me.

'Many times, brother, has it occurred
that, if unwillingly, to escape from harm,
one does a thing that had better not been done,

'as Alcmaeon, exhorted by his father,
slew his own mother: so as not to fail
in piety, he steeled himself to pity.

'At this point, I would ask you to reflect,
the threat of violence so mingles with the will
that these offenses cannot be excused.

'An absolute will consents not to the wrong,
but the will does consent to the extent it fears,
if it draws back, to fall into still greater harm.

'Piccarda, thus, in that which she affirms,
speaks of the absolute will, while I refer
to the other, so that we both maintain a truth.'

Such was the rippling of the holy stream,
issuing from the source from which all truth derives,
that put each one of my desires at peace.

'O belovèd of the first Lover,' I said then,
'divine creature whose speech so floods and scalds me
that I am more and more alive,

'not all the depth of my affection
is enough to requite You grace for grace.
But may He who sees, and has the power, reward You.

'I now see clearly that our intellect
cannot be satisfied until that truth enlighten it
beyond whose boundary no further truth extends.

'In that truth, like a wild beast in its den, it rests
once it has made its way there -- and it can do that,
or else its every wish would be in vain.

'Like a shoot, doubt springs
from the root of truth, and its nature
urges us toward the summit, from ridge to ridge. (hide spoiler)]

The modern political, social, and moral questions have understandings to be applied to them that come out of medicine, psychology, and a whole bunch of other areas, but I found it interesting to find this passage suddenly seeming so contemporary in relevance.