Bright Young Things discussion
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Kim
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July 2015- Kim by Rudyard Kipling
Nigeyb wrote: "The copy I got (but - ahem - didn't read) was from the children's section of the library." Yes this is exactly my point. I just had a quick look on some book websites and although there are a couple of editions in adult fiction, overwhelmingly this is marketed in the children's section, with childlike front covers. I don't think this seems right at all and would think it might deter some people from even considering it.
^ Agreed. It does seem more adult orientated. From what I can glean is pitched at children over the age of 12 - perhaps the issues for that early teen age group are relevant to Kim's experiences? And Kipling is pretty unfashionable so perhaps the publishers reckon adults, in the main, just won't be interested?
I think in terms of the issues involved and their suitability for a child/teen audience, it fits with other books such as Of Mice and Men, Animal Farm, To Kill a Mockingbird, Little Women etc. All great books to read in your mid teens perhaps, but surely not to be fully marketed as children's books? Plus I think Kim is harder to understand the language and themes than those I've mentioned above. I wonder if Kipling thought it more suitable for a younger audience at the time? This might explain things, otherwise I'm at a loss.
The copy I got from the library was from the children's section. I can't imagine anyone younger than high school age enjoying it. There's so much philosophy in it. If it were abridged to include just the adventure parts, I could see it as a children's book, but that would change the whole essence of the book. Of course, it was written in a different age....
The fact that it was written in a different age, when children were perhaps reading different sorts of books, is the only explanation I can think of.
Mod
Children's books were definitely written differently back then, thinking of The Wizard of OZ and Peter Pan, but even they weren't as philosophical as this.
Mod
Considered by many to be Kipling's masterpiece, opinion appears varied about its consideration as children's literature or not. Roger Sale, in his history of children's literature, concludes "Kim is the apotheosis of the Victorian cult of childhood, but it shines now as bright as ever, long after the Empire's collapse..."
I think it's very different from Oz or Peter Pan. Perhaps it's simply because Kim is a child himself? I really need to continue this book.
Me too! I ended up re-reading another book for another book group.
Mod
Maybe. He does seem to be like a young man many boys would like. Full of adventure, pulling one over on the grown ups, yet trustworthy and loyal to those he deems worthy.
Good point, Jennifer.
I do plan on still reading this. It's been nice to keep up with the conversation though so I can think on things when I get to it. :)
I'm still having trouble getting into it. But I will keep plugging away.
How far are you into it Jan?
3% which apparently translates to page 15. So I'm not very far in.
It took me a couple of chapters to get into it....but I still haven't read past chapter 7 yet.
I read a bit more this morning, I'm on chapter 9 now. Slow going, but I think I'll read 1 chapter each morning to get through it.
Yes, I thought it that it is a bit slow going too. The earlier bits were more interesting I think.
As an English Teacher and a very early reader I can tell you right off that Rudyard Kippling was a writer of short stories , novels, children's literature , and Science Fiction for kids . The first I ever read as a child was The Jungle Book . I loved it as a child . I would read it over and over and it was made into a Disney classic . Next , Gunga Din was one of the first Poems I ever read as a child . Just So Stories were a bit strange and I guess science fiction . If - is another war poem and is very sad like Gunga Din , Kim was first published in serial form in a magazine . Kim is an orphan during the second Afghan war which ended in 1881 but before the third from 1893- 1898 . Kim was the son of an Irish soldier and mother who both died . He is left as a ragtag living in India under British rule. Few realize he is white.
So Kim is the first novel that is showing everyone the culture and historical time period through the eyes of a child . But, it is considered a classic .
I never finished it because I was not familiar with the historic period when I was so young and reading all of Kippling. I believe I was only in 4 th grade by that time I found Kim .
But, that is what I remember .
Hope my memory helps some . I did look up the dates and the dates are a bit out of our range. I do know now that we had British in India and the desert .i thought it was later too. I guess that is from reading other books .
Dawn
Roisin wrote: "Yes, I thought it that it is a bit slow going too. The earlier bits were more interesting I think."I'm in trouble if the early parts are the most interesting.
Mod
Oh right! Interesting...
Jan C wrote: "Roisin wrote: "Yes, I thought it that it is a bit slow going too. The earlier bits were more interesting I think."I'm in trouble if the early parts are the most interesting."
Oh dear me too. Fingers crossed.
Kim's 'professional' development- erm, I'm a bit confused about what is happening there, it doesn't seem to have good outcome, some of the characters I suspect have other motives, but it is not clear and wrapped up too much superstition among the Indian characters including Kim. A very odd book!
Ahh! I see what Jennifer means! It has picked up a bit and got more interesting.
Mod
Ahh! I see what Jennifer means! It has picked up a bit and got more interesting."
How far are you? I'm still on chapter 11 and I'm still just getting the sense that things are shady, though I'm not quite sure what they're up to.
Chapter 13! Yes! shady indeed! I was too a bit unsure but in Chapter 12 and 13 it becomes clearer.
Dawn - I didn't realise that Kim originally was serialised.
Also, just went back to Edward Said's introduction. I wonder if Kim is a little bit based on Kipling? Since he was born there, spoke Hindustani and was sent of to an English school.
August 7, 2015Roisin- yes ! I think you are right ! Kim may be Kippling 's life either intentionally or not . I have never read too much about him personally . I think I would like to look into him . I bet he is interesting !
Dawn
Baa Baa, Black Sheep and The Gardener - this is a Penguin imprint celebrating an anniversary. Both stories are based on events in Kipling's life. When he went to England to go to school and when he lost his son in WWI.
Dawn - I'm intrigued to know a bit more about too. Thanks Jan for the link. I've just finished the book. The last few chapters are quite interesting and better than the middle bits. Quite touching in parts near the end.
I have just added my review of Kim.
Mod
Roisin and Jennifer, it sounds like it improved somewhat in the end for you both, so that's promising. I'm still reading....
Mod
Kipling got sent to school in England, as were all upper-class and most middle-class boys, but he returned to India afterwards. His semi-autobiographical story "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" would suggest he was not at all happy about his exile from the place he saw as home.A few of Kipling's books are about boys growing into men and learning some life lessons on the way. (I liked that one of Kim's was not to despise the natives.) We might class the books as 'young adult' now, rather than children's books, but I don't think they were written primarily for adults.
I first read this as a child and enjoyed it. I was lucky enough to have relatives who had lived in British India and could help with the cultural references (that copy did not have footnotes). A lot of Edwardian children might have had similar relatives; India held a great fascination for many people here at the time and a lot of them had spent time there.
Yep! Though we forget that this was mainly due to Britain having an empire. I'm many people young and old had a genuine interest in Indian culture, the tone was quite patronising at times and so would most British people's engagement with empire. I couldn't really take the Indian characters seriously. Very caricature, even though Kipling did have great knowledge of Indian culture.Bit like the French with Algerians, they were French but not quite enough to get a war pension even after spilling blood for France and the allies as many African people's did.
Mod
yes, Russia was interested in Central AsiaHere is a Wikipedia link that you can skim to get an idea. (Just look through The Great Game part)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gre...
Yes, very useful information to those who might not be familiar with the history. The 'chronology' section breaks it down and should make the Russian connection clearer.
This document is referenced in the wiki link that Kathy kindly posted. Just to confuse people further read from page 180 as a challenge to The a Great Game idea:http://www.britac.ac.uk/pubs/proc/fil...
This document is referenced in the wiki link that Kathy kindly posted. Just to confuse people further read from page 180 as a challenge to The a Great Game idea:http://www.britac.ac.uk/pubs/proc/fil...
This document is referenced in the wiki link that Kathy kindly posted. Just to confuse people further read from page 180 as a challenge to The a Great Game idea:http://www.britac.ac.uk/pubs/proc/fil...
Pants! Sorry had problems with posting this. I hate iPad!
Some of the characters are stereotypes, but I don't see the Indian ones as more so than their British counterparts and they are often shown more sympathetically. The lama has a more significant and more beneficial role than the British army priest or parson. Several uneducated villagers are shown with almost childlike simplicity, but with more richness and given more individuality than the working-class under-educated soldiers. Babu Hurree is sometimes a figure of fun, but also resourceful and brave, and I think comes out of the story better than Creighton (and neither of them get accepted for the Royal Society).I also think Kipling is less patronising than most authors of the time. Most of the major characters are Indian (or Asian), apart from Kim himself who crosses the cultural divide. They are also given the roles of teacher, guide or protector, the lama in Kim's spiritual development and Mahbub Ali in his adventurous career, with Hurree cropping up whenever he is needed. Most other authors would probably have made them all the white hero's faithful servants, not him theirs.
I don't think Lurgan's ethnicity is established, he dresses as and is addressed as Sahib, but we are told he is not one. He could be seen as the stereotype of a shadowy, sinister Asiatic, but Kipling subverts that by putting him on the same side as Kim instead of making him an adversary.
Mod
Here is a Wikipedia link that you can skim to get an idea. (Just look through The Great Game part)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gre..."
I just quickly browsed through it, but I had no idea. I especially find it interesting that it was really called The Great Game. I thought Kipling made it up!
Bright Young Things
Books mentioned in this topic
Kim (other topics)Baa Baa, Black Sheep (other topics)
Just So Stories (other topics)
Stalky & Co (other topics)
Kim (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Rudyard Kipling (other topics)Rudyard Kipling (other topics)
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2005...