On Paths Unknown discussion
ATWOOD-BLIND ASSASSIN
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Blind Assassin thread 4: Part XI - End & Large SPOILERS
iris never gave a fig about Richard...she married him because she did not have enough imagination or zest to oppose her father. I never saw any warmth or even much interest between them, but I don't think she loved Alex that much either
Mod
I agree that Iris comes across as very passive and that she certainly seemed to enjoy the comfort of her "position" as Richard's wife, but there are many clues that she was most definitely 'in love' with Alex in the way that girls have crushes... even that she cared a lot about him - just not more than being comfortable and cared for, I guess. :(
Traveller wrote: "In a way, The Blind Assassin story that Iris wrote, was a way to keep Alex alive indefinitely, in the sense of that the written word tends to have a certain degree of immortality. "I was never sure if Iris was writing that part or if it was just memories. But now that you put it that way, I think she would have included the story in what she wrote for Sabrina, because it's a way to mend another betrayal: Alex's publication of a bastardized version of "her" story.
Traveller wrote: "At the end of the book Iris makes it clear that the clinic was investigated and that uncomfortable correspondence between Richard and the clinic staff was discovered:"
Absolutely, and that was enough to end his hopes of a political career, but while the clinic may have suffered from exposure, there's no suggestion that Richard was ever named publicly.
btw, I have vague recollections that there really was such a clinic in Arnprior at the time.
Traveller wrote: "We have no proof that he ever even thought of Laura, although he did hint at admitting to infidelity towards Iris"
I never even imagined that that infidelity involved Laura. I'd actually expected that he was seeing prostitutes.
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Yes, indeed. While there is no "proof" either way, Iris does hint at prostitutes when they sit in the Be rage diner.
Traveller wrote: "The big difference between American and English tea is that English tea tends to be hot with milk (not compulsory) and usually not with lemon. What Americans call "tea" Brits tend to call "iced tea" - right, Cecily?"Broadly. Iced tea isn't common over here, and as for serving hot tea with a slice of lemon, it might be an option at a very refined (or wannabe) table, but again, is not the norm.
What about Canada, though?
Traveller wrote: "Have you people forgotten that Alex asked Iris to leave Richard for him and to run away with him...We have no proof that he ever even thought of Laura"
I don't recall why, but I had the impression that he was fond of Laura, but in a primarily paternal or brotherly way.
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"
Hmmm, I think he was fond of her, but there are hints that he found her a bit too... prescriptive with her admonishments about his physical and spiritual health.
My two most significant discoveries about this book are (1) the possibility Iris may have killed Richard, and (2) thinking of it in the sense of classical tragedy. I really didn't look down on or feel critical of Iris as some others of you seemed to. I didn't think she was bad or weak. She was one unfortunate lady, and I was sorry for her sad life--especially since I didn't get any sense of redemption or catharsis from it! I think that's just not Margaret Atwood's way.I even learned something from the discussion that continued in the other thread.
I'm not planning to read the other proposed books with the group. I joined it just to discuss "The Blind Assassin." So somebody please let me know when there's another one you think I may want to get in on.
Being one of those who could not bring much charity to poor old Iris, still find it a stretch to see her actually murdering Richard. Can you explaib?
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Regarding Richard's death, I definitely lean towards an interpretation that the accusation is made with reference to Iris's actions which ruined Richard's reputation, rather than implying direct, physically murderous actions.
I think there's a lot of symbolism and imagery going on in the story.
Also, sometimes people say cruel things when they want to get back at somebody, so I think Winifred's accusation that Iris killed Richard, was referring to the fact that Iris had The Blind Assassin published and that she tipped off the authorities about the clinic. That should be quite enough to justify such an accusation under the circumstances, and seeing who it was coming from and whom it was directed to.
When we deal with even unreliable narrators, the author usually lets the reader know by little slips that the narrator makes as to what is "really" going on - a sort of reading between the lines, and I never saw any evidence in the story that would place Iris physically at the scene of Richard's death.
Traveller wrote: "I can agree with the Greek tragedy comparison. Fate seems to intervene at the most inopportune times, eh?Regarding Richard's death, I definitely lean towards an interpretation that the accusatio..."
I agree with Traveller. Same goes for Laura's death...Iris's disclosure was a catalyst, but not a direct cause. I think Iris knew her disclosure would hurt Laura, but I don't think Iris wanted Laura to die. Iris may have felt that Richard's death, on the other hand, was well deserved.
Magdelanye wrote: "Being one of those who could not bring much charity to poor old Iris, still find it a stretch to see her actually murdering Richard. Can you explaib?"Short answer: It was Derek's comment #27 on p. 1 of this thread that originally gave me this idea. I responded to it in my comment #42. I haven't looked back at the relevant passages. Prior to that, I hadn't thought of it myself.
Longer answer: Whatever the story-within-a-story reminds you of--ancient Hebrews, Hittites, etc.--what does it have to do with the main story? Maybe this has been discussed and I missed it. Why is the book even named The Blind Assassins?
There has been a lot of discussion about the dysfunction in Laura and Iris' family of origin. But unless one is going to be like those early feminists who thought all families were hell, there's nothing in that alone that would automatically lead to the analogy to sneaking around assassinating people. Dysfunctional families and badly treated children are a dime a dozen, but blind assassins are rare. That's why I observed that, if she had murdered Richard, the title would make sense.
Richard's modus operandi including his treatment of Iris and spiked by his abuse of Laura raise the ante.
For me, unfortunate comments made by Iris aren't equivalent to murder. I don't think that makes the one who uttered them a "blind assassin."
Not all books have to make sense. Tartt's The Secret History didn't, and for me that added to the eerie spookiness. For most books, though, making sense helps. I thought the analogy in The Blind Assassin, if that's what it is, was disproportional and wish I understood it better.
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Yeah, I got the feeling that the decision to tell Laura was on a spiteful impulse that she later regretted, possibly even as soon as she said it...
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At a certain point, when he gets to the part where the Blind Assassin falls in love with the mute victim, you realize that Alex is talking about himself and Iris. In his telling of the story, one interpretation is that he is the Blind Assassin and she is the mute girl, but then one realizes that it actually works better the other way round.
In the part of the story that involves Iris, Laura and Richard, it is Iris's blindness that causes the deaths of both Laura and Richard: Iris is blind to what is going on between Richard and Laura, and therefore also blind to the fact that it is NOT Alex who was the father of Laura's baby, but Richard. While she was still in this blind state of hers, of believing that Laura and Alex had been having an affair, in her blind jealousy she let slip the words that ended up being the catalyst for the whole drama that led to Laura's death, and that leads to Iris eventually feeling vengeful towards Richard, which ended up with -his- death.
So in the latter scenario, it is Iris who is "blind".
As for the assassin bit, an "assassin" is usually someone who kills in a stealthy manner; and the analogy for me lies in that Iris did not kill them directly, but yet she feels that her actions led to Laura's death, and I am sure she knows her actions, even though indirectly, played a large role in Richard's death.
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Cecily wrote: "Iced tea isn't common over here, and as for serving hot tea with a slice of lemon, it might be an option at a very refined (or wannabe) table, but again, is not the norm.What about Canada, though? "
I'm sorry, I totally missed what is, to me, a vital comment.
Tea is a huge part of my life. I make a trek into the city every few months to buy my 2kg bag of loose Earl Grey.
So, the story goes that the Americans, at what is now known as "The Boston Tea Party", threw the tea into Boston Harbor, and ever since that's been the way they make tea.
Most American's don't know tea except as "iced tea". The ones who do, call the other stuff "Hot Tea". Which we, in Canada, laugh at just as much as we laugh at most of the world calling our national game "Ice" hockey. As if there's any other kind...
However, though Canadians look down on American tea, there are very few places you can get a half-decent cuppa here. Generally they use tepid water and make you add the tea bag yourself (there's NOWHERE [I know, hyperbole, and someone no doubt has a counter-example—there's too many Canadians here] you're ever getting tea made with loose tea leaves unless maybe in a tea-house in Victoria), so that you get the joy of looking at a brown bag sitting in a cup of clear water with maybe the slightest tinge of tanning blurring the edges of the bag. And it tastes like dish soap.
And that's if they even care whether your tea is contaminated with coffee. Frequently they'll heat the water in coffee percolators, and all I can taste is coffee.
Lemon: I think a lot of Canadian poseurs think that's the way to drink tea. Me, I just buy my expensive Earl Grey, then steep it so long I might as well have bought whatever was cheapest … :-)
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "...Tea is a huge part of my life. I make a trek into the city every few months to buy my 2kg bag of loose Earl Grey...."Tea and its proper brewing figured heavily in the Anne Tyler book I just completed, Digging to America, with its Iranian-American characters.
Traveller wrote: "...it is Iris's blindness that causes the deaths of both L..."Maybe. Except that assassins do it deliberately. And Laura wasn't someone who deserved it. And remarks don't kill. If they did people would be dropping like flies and we wouldn't have to worry about gun control over here.
Mod
Maybe. Except that assassins do it deliberately. And Laura wasn't someone who deserved it. And remarks don't kill..."
Laura most certainly did not deserve it, most definitely not. Though I have a feeling that perhaps Iris may have felt that Richard did. After all, he was the cause of a lot of grief for Laura, Iris and their father, and can be said to be responsible for the deaths of Iris's father and for that of Laura.
But also, this is why she is a "blind" assassin. Firstly, it is her blindness, her inability to read a situation correctly, that caused the deaths. Also, a person blindly stumbling along can cause more harm than a seeing person through sheer clumsiness. ..and because he/she cannot see, he or she can do things accidentally. Like accidentally kill someone.
Granted, Laura's death was out of clumsiness and Richard's not so much. But a blind person eventually becomes less clumsy, just like the blind assassin in the story eventually became deft.
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I suppose you'll hate me, but I plead guilty to using teabags. They're just so convenient! :P
You'd hate me even more if I told you that Earl Grey is probably my least favorite tea/tisane blend. Tastes a bit too much on the medicinal side to me.
But when I have time, I do like to experiment with tea and Tisane blends. I love Jasmine tea, and mint teas, and I love mixing one bag of Ceylon tea with one bag of Rooibos tea, the latter which has an interesting, sweet aroma and is said to contain tons of antioxidants. :)
Oh, and just chamomile on it's own, or a chamomile/rooibos mix is nice for bedtime.
And that's if they even care whether your tea is contaminated with coffee. Frequently they'll heat the water in coffee percolators, and all I can taste is coffee."
Oi, now you are reminding me of the disgusting swill we used to be served in the large urns at uni res. We could never figure out whether it was meant to be tea of coffee, and called it cateaffy. (Cateaffy instead of coteaffy to bring in a suggestion of cat's urine. XD ) (To make matters worse, you could taste more than a hint of powdered milk in what they served as milk).
Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "However, though Canadians look down on American tea, there are very few places you can get a half-decent cuppa here. Generally they use tepid water and make you add the tea bag yourself "I drink Earl Grey, Lapsang Suchong, and various green and white teas - but I make all of them with tepid water (and never any milk, lemon or sugar)!
For Earl Grey, I put 1/4 cup of cold water in the mug or pot, top up with boiling, then add the tea, without letting it brew for long. With green and white teas, it's 1/3 cold.
I arrived at this by trial and error (if the water is too hot, the drink tastes of actual tea, rather than bergamot or whatever).
More recently, my son has turned into a serious tea buff. Apparently, most teas get burnt with boiling water, and some green and white ones are traditionally made with water ~60 degrees. For Christmas, we gave him a kettle where you can set the thermostat (I just stick to my cold/boiling water combo).
Mod
Aha! So that's why my tea tastes so bad when I microwave it with the teabag in the cup. I pour my water from the kettle just after it had boiled, but into a cold teapot or cold mug so it will be just under boiling point when it brews, but I never knew that there is a specific reason for what I had observed, and for the habit I learned from my parents. I definitely would not call it tepid - it's still hot enough to burn you, but it's not boiling either.
So it would seem that people who put their teapot on the boil and brew the tea boiling, will get that horrid taste as a result, but not even if you're just a degree or two under...
Traveller wrote: "I suppose you'll hate me, but I plead guilty to using teabags. They're just so convenient! :PYou'd hate me even more if I told you that Earl Grey is probably my least favorite tea/tisane blend. "
There's nothing really wrong with tea-bags, though I guarantee you that it's lesser quality tea. Tear one open and compare the "dust" inside to the contents of a bag of loose tea (even cheap tea).
The problem with Earl Grey is that it's made with Bergamot. There are two entirely different plants named Bergamot—a citrus and a herb—and afaict they use either one... If you're lucky. I'm pretty certain that some bagged teas only use an artificial Bergamot. The stuff I usually drink doesn't taste at all like Twinings bags...
Cecily wrote: "I drink Earl Grey, Lapsang Suchong, and various green and white teas - but I make all of them with tepid water (and never any milk, lemon or sugar)!
"
Gross, gross, gross! You're absolutely right that green and white teas are generally made with cooler water, but black teas should be made with—near—boiling water. Otherwise you get dish-water. I'd almost rather drink coffee.
Traveller wrote: "So it would seem that people who put their teapot on the boil and brew the tea boiling, will get that horrid taste as a result, but not even if you're just a degree or two under... "
It's very traditional here in Nova Scotia to make your tea and then leave it on the stove all day. THAT makes bitter tea!
Honestly, making black tea without getting the water close to a boil is the way to make "that horrid taste". But boiling extracts the tannin, so the hotter the water, the more bitter the tea will be. People tend to react very differently to tannin (or bitterness in general), so it's no surprise that some people don't like their tea steeped too long, but I'm totally at a loss as to how anybody can like black tea made with tepid water.
Mod
and this
The top one would be slightly too strong for me and the lower one too weak. But I do prefer mine with milk, no sugar, maybe more or less like in the bottom cup. The milk has its own sweetness, so that's enough for me. :)
Nice pictures, but the ideal colour depends entirely on the type of tea!I like Earl Grey and Lapsang between the top and middle one. Jasmine and green and white teas need to look like straw/wee. I'd never drink the bottom one.
Mod
Yes, indeed. I should have mentioned that I'm using Twinings English Breakfast as my point of reference.
Why would you never drink the tea in the bottom image? The milk?
I drank my first green tea in Taiwan and Japan where green rather than black teas tend to be the norm, and yes, they also drink it looking like a weak-ish green grass extract. (I mean actual grass as in what cows eat, not pot :P).
So I agree that green tea should look weak. But I prefer my Ceylon teas rather stronger and with milk. Sometimes I even drink my green teas and my tisane with milk. It takes the hard edge off the taste and gives it a much softer, rounder taste.
Sometimes I will add honey and lemon, (not with milk of course) especially to iced tea. Actually I have a wide tolerance for how I drink my tea, as long as there's no sugar in it.
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Might seem worker class to you, but maybe I'm just a pleb deep down. XD
Traveller wrote: "Why would you never drink the bottom one?"Because I never have milk in tea. (And no lemon or sugar either.)
This is about right for me, though the flowering ones are sometimes bigger on looks than taste:
Mod
Because I never have milk in tea. (And no lemon or sugar either.)
This is about right for me, though the flowering ones are sometimes ..."
Ooooh no, for black Ceylon tea? Nooo, I'm with Derek there - that's dishwater! :P That's what my chamomile tea looks like!
...and I add milk to everything, even my soup often times. Firstly because I can't handle my food and drink too hot and the milk helps cool it down, and secondly it's a habit I developed when I had stomach ulcers. I've grown to enjoy the softness of the milk, and it really helps protect your stomach. Oddly, it also helps to bring out the flavors of the various brews.
I can't resist tea talk. ;)I've been drinking mostly Earl Grey latelg, though from Higgins & Burke rather than Twinings. H&B has a stronger citrus taste than does Twinings. My brother commented on this on Saturday when we had Twinings for the first time in a couple of years. He thought it might be stale, but I'm pretty sure it was just different.
I only ever drink milk with chai, and never sugar or anything else. I don't really understand why one would want to change the taste of something which tastes good to begin with...
Is that your actual tea service, Trav? ;)
If I have to drink bagged tea, I like Higgins & Burke.
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Puddin Pointy-Toes wrote: "I can't resist tea talk. ;)
I've been drinking mostly Earl Grey latelg, though from Higgins & Burke rather than Twinings. H&B has a stronger citrus taste than does Twinings. My brother commented on..."
Well, like I said, milk (okay, fresh skim milk, that is) actually brings out the taste, rather than "change " it.
Since sugar is pretty flavorless besides the sweetness, I doubt that it would change the flavor the way that honey does. And unless you're a stickler for monotony, it's nice to experiment with tea the way the Americans drink it - I have found the most successful mixes being beer with iced tea, lemon and honey, which makes for a delightfully refreshing drink after a hard run or cycle in summer, and I have even mixed some iced tea into heated spiced glühwein in winter.
As for my teasets, I have ones that look similar to the following:
Royal Albert sets:
I inherited a Delft set similar to this one:
I actually find them all too busy and prefer just a plain white set. But the rims have to be paper-thin. I hate when tea or coffee cups have thick rims.
What does yours look like?
I must try out the Higgins & Burke Earl Grey. Will get back to you on that. :D
Traveller wrote: "Ooooh no, for black Ceylon tea? Nooo, I'm with Derek there - that's dishwater! :P "But I never drink Ceylon, or anything like it. The only black tea I drink is Earl Grey, and occasionally Lapsang. Both are better weak, and without milk, imo.
Traveller wrote: "Ichtoizone..."Google was no help with that. I presume I'm missing a pun or other joke, so I'm afraid you'll have to explain.
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Taking LOLcatspeak to its zenith. http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/20...
Oh, purleez, dahling. Lolcats are so last year. It's all about loldogs now.
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Chuldrenz can duz diz to yu
PS noet no punctuashun eggcept 4 eggsclamashuns!!!!!
having a bit of time on a real computer, I wanted to catch up on this site....finally bit the bullet and on antibiotics for my poor lost tooth and subsequent infection. Really I was looking for the discussion on the Hittites but somehow diverted to this discussion on tea. Of course, individual taste is the key determining factor to which kind and how to brew.Regardless, it all brews better in a TEAPOT (lovely photos there) that has been warmed by the boiling water fresh from the kettle. The addition of a splash of milk for tannin rich blends makes it more palatable for me.
Seeing as I gave up coffee decades ago, even the smell is revolting to me. In my early 20s I favored Earl Grey (constant comment anybody?) and spurned milk. Actually I dont do dairy either in general and its vanilla soy now. Please bear with me ( there must be some advantage to being Canadienne) i got bored with earl grey and cansay that now I drink what are called tisanes and make my own blends...peppermint, nettle and yarrow being a fave. When I am too lazy or rushed I will use a bag, steeped in a pot, generally green tea chai or a Traditional Tea Blend like breathe easy, ginger or echinaces slippery elm. If there is interest, I will reveal my super recipe for morning tea made of roots and barks...
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As a tea-drinking, Earl Grey drinking Canadienne, you will fit right in with the tastes if Canadians Derek and Puddin, and I suspect Chance is Canadian as well, but don't know her tea tastes. :)
With the tisanes & green tea, you fit in with myself and Cecily, and with the Chai myself and Puddin, (yes, I sometimes drink spiced Chai, -love the spices, but I hate pre-made spicy Chai because it's over-sweet).
Just reveal your recipe already, Magdelanye. :D
morning tea:sarsaparilla..
3x slippery elm bark..the powder is not good for this as it lumps
Angelika root
marshmallow root
licorice toot
rose hips
pour boiling water over this and simmer at least 15 minutes. add honey and lemon.
works best if you can wait 20 min or so before eating the rest of your brekkie.
I make a batch every 5 days or so, and its easy to heat up quickly on the days I am not brewing.
wild cherry bark can be added for coughs
in fact, I believe drinking a cup of this every morning keeps colds from developing.
Mod
hot yes.personally I don't like this mix cool tho no reason .
Siante!
I don't know how I missed the conclusion of the tea thread, but now I'm going to revive it!Magdelanye wrote: "Regardless, it all brews better in a TEAPOT (lovely photos there) that has been warmed by the boiling water fresh from the kettle."
I've been trying to get the physics of this right. I make tea that is, imo, perfect at my home in Nova Scotia. I have never been able to make it taste as good elsewhere. I have a second apartment in Dartmouth, and I experimented.
At home, I boil the kettle on the stove top. I place the (steel) teapot on the stove beside it. Then when the kettle boils, I put the teapot on the hot-spot where the kettle was, and pour the water over the tea-leaves, and I watch convection bring the leaves to the top of the pot.
In Dartmouth, I have an electric kettle, but an identical teapot. If I don't heat the teapot, or just pre-heat the teapot with some boiling water, I don't see the convection, and it tastes soapy. I have to put the pot on the stove, at its lowest setting, when I start the kettle. THEN when I make the tea, it convects and I get the full tea flavour.
Mod
Derek, I wonder if you could be STORING your tea (I presume it is exactly the same brand) in different enough places to make it taste different. Also, perhaps even tho the same brand, it tastes slightly different bought from different locations?
My student sun, who is a tea connoisseur, has a kettle that heats to different temperatures for different kinds of tea. Black teas should be brewed hotter than green and white, apparently. I don't remember the different temperatures, but I'd arrived at a similar conclusion myself: I always put cold water in the bottom of the cup, and more for white tea than green.
Fortunately, altitude is not really an issue in England.
just wondering how Derek can see the tea leaves in action through a steel teapot. personally, I prefer ceramic or glass teapots and covered is also important. never use soap in the washing up...it will retain a soapy flavor.as for different boiling times for different types of tea....isn't the boiling point uniform? I'm mean, when its boiling its boiling...do you mean the water needs to cool down a bit?
Magdelanye wrote: "as for different boiling times for different types of tea....isn't the boiling point uniform?"Yes, but the point is that for most tea, you should use tea that's NOT boiling, otherwise it burs the leaves and changes (spoils) the taste. I believe that kettles, where you set a specific temperature, such as the one we bought are son, are very common in Japan for exactly that reason.
Iris very explicitly tells us that the only possibility in her mind was Alex, which is why, at a few points I wanted to shake her for being so blind at what was obviously going on right under her nose. (Richard and Laura).