Gene Wolfe Fans discussion
Finally making my way through the Latro books
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the manumission ceremony is set up to "free" the slaves who help them ... to free them from life. the spartans execute them in the ceremony ... latro cant remember it consciously but it scars him terribly watching the slaughter, this along with the death of the amazon girl sers him into a depression and makes him almost ready to give up fighting and war ...
GIANT SPOILER (possibly)I'm thinking of starting on the Latro books after Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos. I looked up some background and came across a weird theory: what about this theory that Latro is really Ares the god of war?
After reading the first two, I'd say it's a valid theory. There are times when he is called an alternate name for Ares (I'd have to look up what it was right now,) in a very similar fashion to Horn/Silk. I haven't read the third, but that may or may not change in the their novel.There is also a valid theory that Latro may be a werewolf/Neuri. Again, a character or two refer to him as one.
that latro is ares/pleistorus is my theory .. expanded here .http://ultan.org.uk/shadows-of-the-ne...
the wolf is the symbol of mars and rome ... latro is not a werewolf. that is borski's theory. i much prefer mine in, amazingly, every way. go figure.
Maybe it's funny, but I tend to prefer that he is neither... Just has similarities to both. He is pre-Roman Italian; I just think that his affinity to the supernatural (and since Romulus and Remus were suckled by a wolf; as mentioned by one of the godesses) gives him traits which could make him appear to be Neuri or Pleistorus.
Back to my original post... So, the idea is to slaughter all the slaves. What I wasn't really clear on; was Latro meant to be part of the slaughter, or was the intention to spare him? He did wear the crown and was the head of the ceremony, etc. I guess I don't get why he wasn't killed with the rest of the slaves. Did he survive due to his ability? If so, no other character mentions it....
the subtext for pleistorus is that he is ahura mazda incognito ... thus making the entire text a syncretic one approaching Christianity when the God of War grows weary of battle and allows the eventual Pax Roman - the world of Peace which allows Christ's birth and the assimilation of the pagan into the christian. Ahura Mazda is as close to the all good God we are going to get in these myths. statements like "i am your mother and your mother's mother" in his memory palace are pretty clear.
i think his sponsor was going to spare him but i need to reread the scene - it has probably been a decade since I read it.
Marc wrote: "that latro is ares/pleistorus is my theory .. expanded here .http://ultan.org.uk/shadows-of-the-ne..."Much obliged. I'll read it with that interpretation in mind.
I have to admit: with Wolfe, I cheat. I wouldn't go near BotNS without a copy of Lexicon Urthus handy. As satisfying as it might be to puzzle out the secrets, I just don't have the time.
Might also check out Shadows otNS
Just finished Soldier of Arete (or more properly Latro in the Mist), and also just found out there's a 3rd book! Just beginning to digest the story so far, thanks for the help I've already received here! To definitely answer Dirk's question, I'd say yes, the Spartans definitely intended for Latro to survive. I thought it a ruse at first, but Pausanias desperately wants to win glory at the Games, and Latro is his ticket for that.
I picked up on the Ares/Ahura Mazda connection, but thanks Marc for ellucidating that more fully. I still don't think I understand what the quote "I amm your mother..." means.
What perhaps puzzles me most right now is I'm not quite sure what game the gods are playing. I made the decision not to worry too much about it as I read, figuring it would only become clear at the end. I have some time to reflect on it now before the next book arrives.
I'd like to ask if I may, why, in your opinion, does GW use the odd names for Greek city-states that he does? Why insist on Rope-Makers, which seems to be a pun, instead of Spartans? I assume "Thought" and "Hundred-Eyed" are similar puns or overly-literal translations.
Michael wrote: "I'd like to ask if I may, why, in your opinion, does GW use the odd names for Greek city-states that he does? Why insist on Rope-Makers, which seems to be a pun, instead of Spartans? I assume "Thou..."I'm thinking verisimilitude. That he's trying to recreate the mind of someone from the period speaking to us from within that period.
This is a quite excellent article on the first two Latro books:http://ultan.org.uk/some-greek-themes...
The author did appear to miss the off-screen slaughter at the manumission ceremony, but otherwise there is some enlightening commentary there.
I am a lover of Wolfe's fiction, except these books. I could not enjoy them at all. It's mostly just dialogue, and not interesting dialogue, but boring, stale, with lacklustre characters and a plot that trots along all too slowly, meandering along apparently without much reason. Many here will tell me I am wrong, and maybe I am, but that was how I felt when putting down the first Latro book about 80% of the way through. I simply did not care what would happen.New Sun, on the other hand, and Long Sun, The Wizard Knight, The Sorcerer's House, Pirate Freedom -- those are some of my all time favorite books.
Alan wrote: "I am a lover of Wolfe's fiction, except these books. I could not enjoy them at all. It's mostly just dialogue, and not interesting dialogue, but boring, stale, with lacklustre characters and a pl..."I loved these books, but loved them much more the second time through ... especially Soldier of Arete. They are just behind Short Sun for me as my favorite Wolfe ... different strokes for different folks, but I have always considered these books to be almost unimaginably good. Long Sun and Wizard Knight drag in parts for me, but obviously I still appreciate them. I guess part of the joy is it is obvious where you need to look up stuff to flesh out a scene, instead of wildly guessing as to the sources, as with some of the short stories. I think Wolfe's hand with non-modern characters is especially deft and memorable.
Any thoughts?