Support for Indie Authors discussion
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Amazon paying for pages read only
April wrote: "Susan wrote: "C.B. wrote: "April wrote: "Here is Amazon's explanation of the new payment policy for KU books read: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A...According to Amazon's sample c..."
Using a "normalized" page count from a few months back, Amazon said there were about 1.8 billion pages read. Yikes!
Scott wrote: "April wrote: "Susan wrote: "C.B. wrote: "April wrote: "Here is Amazon's explanation of the new payment policy for KU books read: https://kdp.amazon.com/help?topicId=A...According to Ama..."
Thanks, Scott. I was guessing it would be something at least over a billion. I knew Amazon had to have at least some idea of the normalized page count read before they implemented the new payment system this month. It will be fun to watch, to see what happens.
April
April wrote: "Iffix wrote: "Thankfully, this won't effect me at all, since my books are AWESOME! :DSeriously, though, it is interesting to see how Amazon encourages authors to sign up with them as a publisher t..."
I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many of the "articles" (translate as hatchet jobs or propaganda) deliberately leave out key facts and steer the reader into thinking things that aren't so. The Telegraph piece does just that in the article lead-in, making the reader think that even sold books are paid by the page. Only after getting half way in do they mention it's for KOLL. I'm not worried in the least as I'm confident most of the people borrowing my book Haunted Tree will finish it. The lending program has been a real boon to me.
Scott
Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many of the "articles" (translate as hatchet jobs or propaganda) deliberately leave out key facts"I've noticed there's a definite Amazon "hate club" out there. I, for one, am NOT a member of that club. I love Amazon. They made it possible for me to fulfill my lifelong dream of becoming an author.
April
April wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many of the "artic..."Check out J.A. Konrath. He's a very successful writer who has sold over a million kindle books. He's also very "pro-indie author" and spends a considerable amount of time giving sound advice and encouragement to new (and not so new!) authors. Check out his blog sometime, it's well worth it. Also, since you are with KU, I'd be honored if you would sometime take a look at my book and tell me what you think of it. It's not romance, though (although there's a touch of it). Anyway, welcome to Goodreads and congrats on getting a book DONE and published. A big accomplishment.
Scott
Scott wrote: "April wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many..."Thank you, Scott. And thanks for the recommendation to read J.A. Konrath. I will certainly look at his blog and advice. I'm trying to learn as much as humanly possible, especially about marketing.
Sure, I'd love to take a look at your book. I've been writing for many, many years, and I've taught writing at the college level for years. I'd be happy to look at your writing and give you some constructive feedback.
Thank you for the kind words on my first release. It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, but I never had any interest in dealing with the traditional route. I'm too much of a do-it-yourselfer. When the indie publishing market started really taking off, I knew I'd found my opportunity. I'm indie, all the way! :)
Feel free to message me, to make arrangements for you to send me your work.
April
Scott wrote: "April wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many..."I got "Haunted Tree" on KU.
April
April wrote: "Well, that makes much more sense. Why would they use such an inaccurate value on their website sample calculations?Does anyone have an idea what the total count of pages read might be for a month? Any ballpark figures? They use 100,000,000 in their example calculations, but I assume that is WAY too low."
Amazon used number that I imagine they thought would be easy to understand in that example. They were not meant to be taken seriously, but they probably should have thought of that.
Amazon released the total KENP count for June. That's where the estimate of 0.6-cents per KENP comes from, assuming a total payout of $11 million. ($0.0058 more specifically. There are more details father up in this thread and elsewhere)
BTW: Amazon paid $11.3 million into KU for June -- $300,000 over their previously announced figure.
Susan wrote: "Jack, how do you know how much you're getting per book? Amazon hasn't done any payouts under the new program."True. But Amazon did publicly state the payout for July would be (at least) $11 million. They'll have a hard time going back on that (if only for July).
So the only way the estimates are badly off is if the KENP count is quite a bit different than June. If the KENP count goes way up, Amazon can add money to the program to match the payout implied by their releasing the June numbers -- they've done this the past to sustain the payout level.
If KENP count falls a lot for July, authors in KU are going to see a nice bonus, unless Amazon goes back on the $11 million statement. In that case, I'd expect Amazon to dial back the payout for August.
But keep in mind that Amazon knows exactly what the KENP numbers have been since KU started. They picked the payout for July based on what they want to pay KU authors per KENP, and the number they picked is a bit more than 1/2 a cent per KENP. They could have picked a lower number, but they didn't.
Given all those factors, there is an excellent chance the July payout will be between $0.005 and $0.006 per KENP.
April wrote: "Scott wrote: "April wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon..."April,
Oh, wow, thanks! I was literally just about to message you to find out what format to send you (mobi, PDF). Well, you got the got the best format already. Thanks, professor.
Scott
April wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups. Many of the "artic..."Absolutely agree with you, April. Were it not for Amazon, I'd be making chump change selling print books.
TO be honest, I've read the information several times and I'm still a bit lost. And I do have a half decent brain! I have just decided to wait and see what happens at the end of the month, as when I tried to estimate I came up with two very different figures.
The truth is, all numbers being thrown around here are pure speculation based on some info that Amazon threw out in the press release. No, the ten cent per page number was not in any way close to accurate, but the half cent per page is assuming that the nearly two billion pages they cited for June presumes that June's numbers were typical. Sure, we can all speculate, but we won't know anything until August 15th and what we all need to keep in mind is that what we see in August is indicative of nothing more than the reading habits of subscribers in July. When I began with Amazon in 2012, the Prime borrows paid anywhere from $2-4 and swung wildly. Every time there was a dip, people freaked out. When KU was introduced and it became obvious that the same level of royalties was not sustainable, people freaked out. Yes, the payout went down, but the potential audience increased quite a bit, and everyone missed this point.
My advice is to stop speculating and don't start spending money that isn't earned yet. You could do what I do, and smile fondly at the pretty blue graph that looks a heck of a lot more interesting than it used to. ;)
I haven't had a single movement on my KU since the new system went into place. :\
Charles wrote: "I haven't had a single movement on my KU since the new system went into place. :\":(
Try adding KU to your Twitter ads.
I haven't run any in awhile. Mostly trying to build a base of followers by retweeting.I did get retweeted by Keith David twice. :D
Rob wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups."Great, I love co..."
Rob, obviously some people are worried, but there is also a lot jumping to conclusions going on. You say: "As for all you doorstop writers (that's us, BTW) happy about coming out on top at the expense of novelette/novella writers: congrats on coming out on top, I'm happy for you, but a bit of consideration for those hardworking novelette/novella writers might be in place." Now, I'm confidant you are aware this is an unfounded assumption. No payout has been made, and who will come out on top has not been determined yet -- nor will it be for a long time.
As Christina points out, everything is speculation at this point. I'm perfectly willing to believe that it might be in your best interest to not be in KU, but again, this is speculation. Offering advice to other authors based on the outcome of future events, seems a highly dubious proposition.
You might also want to note two things: one, whenever rules are changed is always mid-game -- this game never ends. Two, it appears that Amazon is allowing KDP Select authors out of the program on demand (this was mentioned above), not holding them to waiting out the rest of the 3-mo commitment.
I can imagine you are frustrated with the price-matching situation, but of course Amazon has no obligation there to do anything, as is well known. Amazon is not a public utility, as some people seem to imply.
Lastly, it clearly premature to "acknowledge its turning out to be a terrible deal for a lot of people". It hasn't turned out to be any kind of deal for anyone, yet. In 6-months, a 1 year, or 3 years, a judgements be made on who won and who lost. Many people (ourselves included) who might seem -- after a meaningless 15 days -- to be doing well, may be doing badly in 6 months. Others may be in the opposite case.
I'm afraid these arguments are running ahead of the facts and ahead of logic. Yes, people do give into irrational fears and I also understand they wish to vent. I'm less clear in how venting supports the endeavors of anyone else.
Time will tell (as always). Best of luck with your work, wherever you choose to place it.
Christina wrote: "Charles wrote: "I haven't had a single movement on my KU since the new system went into place. :\":(
Try adding KU to your Twitter ads."
I agree with Christina. I include "Kindle Unlimited" on all my ads, and my KU traffic is bustling. I don't know what "average" traffic looks like on KU, so I don't know how mine compares, but it's rising steadily from one day to the next. And I attribute that to advertising "Read FREE on Kindle Unlimited."
April
Rob wrote: "Scott wrote: "I've been following the negative press on the KDP Select change since day one and I can't help but think that most of it is orchestrated by "we hate Amazon" groups."Great, I love co..."
Rob, how does the new payment policy disadvantage novella writers? If one writer puts out a 400-page novel, and another writer puts out four 100-page novellas, they both have the same number of pages to offer readers. If they put out equally good and engaging work, then their KU traffic should be comparable. Am I missing something?
April
This has become a circular argument. Again, I will implore all of you to wait and see what happens after at least one month of payouts is complete. Also, do keep in mind that the KU program is barely more than a year old, so at this point, changes should not be considered curve balls thrown at unsuspecting authors as much as tweaks to a new program in its infancy.
Mod
Well that is a great idea I didn't think of. Silly CB!
Thanks, I'll do that now.
Rob wrote: "It's only fair to speak out against the dice being loaded "before" you role the dice and find out they might be loaded to your advantage. But anyhow, it doesn't take a genius to do the short term m..."And again, I will remind you that the name of this group is Support for Indie Authors and the first rule is no negativity. I understand that you may see the program as unfair to you and other who write short novels. Founded or not, please do not make derogatory comments regarding authors who write longer works. What other authors write and the quality of their work is not something that we want anyone here making assumptions about.
For any additional clarification, please see Ann's introductory topic: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I wish I had a dose of that long winded verbosity.
I have to work hard to make anything I write of substantial length.
Mod
There really are two sides to this. I had an idea for a short story, which turned into a 3 part full length series over the course of a week.
I tried to write a different short story for a contest, and my verbosity blossomed it into a behemoth concept overnight.
I can write flash fiction and keep it short, but once I have some time to think... watch out! :D
As I see it, the wand chooses the wizard, Harry... Er... Rather, the story lets the author know what the proper length is. I had an idea for a short that might now be a trilogy of full length novels and conversely, I had a novel idea that I think works better as a short bit of flowery prose. Just roll with it.
Just like when I'm reading, I want to get to the good stuff.
Christina wrote: "As I see it, the wand chooses the wizard, Harry... Er... Rather, the story lets the author know what the proper length is. I had an idea for a short that might now be a trilogy of full length novel..."I guess we should take this discussion to another place instead of hijacking, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. ;) I'm almost finished with my draft, and already thinking of subplots to layer in on the rewrite.
When I first started writing, my shorts ballooned way past the recommended word count for magazine publication, and I had to cull them. Now I can't get back to that way of writing. I never cut anything anymore, I actually have to go back to add things to flesh it out.
B.B. wrote: "Exactly."This is not a one size fits all situation! :)
Rob wrote: "Christine? seriously?As far as I can see, I've spoken out in support of Indie authors against Amazon's mid-game rule changes
and against your/Owen's idea of just letting the dice roll and wait how things turn out.
As you state the name of this group is Support for Indie "Authors", not Support for "Publishing Platforms", but you are the mod, so it's your rules, so I'll respectfully opt to not pick a fight with the mod and will retract myself from this thread now.
"
The old way was broken. I was getting paid as much for a 10 page short as I was a 300 page book. No matter how you look at it, that is not fair to anyone, and only floods the market with shorts. Now that people will be writing longer works to capitalize on the new arrangement, that gives us a better chance of our shorts being noticed.
If it weren't for Amazon, I wouldn't even be published. They're the ones spearheading the movement, and everyone else is just following the example they've set. So in that aspect, supporting Amazon is supporting Indie Authors. Amazon controls 65% of the ebook market, and ebooks make up 35% (and growing) of the overall publishing market. If they can't keep KU solvent, it will fail, and none of us will get anything. If Amazon fails, we all fail. Smashwords ain't gonna save us. Smashwords would get bought out by one of the big 5 and either altered or shut down completely if Amazon wasn't taking all the heat.
Mod
At the end of the day, Amazon is going to Amazon. They'll listen to customers before they'll listen to anyone else.
I also wonder if they're seeing all the shorter works and encouraging Authors to put them into short story collections instead of releasing individual shorts that cost as much in some cases as a full length book.
It boils down to what Amazon feels is best for their bottom line.
Well, apparently someone deleted before I got here, but the point seems to be missed. This is Support for Indie Authors and by claimimg that other authors who are 'verbose' are somehow inferior (as has been stated in many of your previous posts), you are violating Ann's first rule. As for the comments about supporting a publishing platform, yes,the majority of us who have been discussing the changes are in fact, published with Amazon and enrolled in KDP Select, so this affects us. You, are not, which means that regardless of your opinion on Amazon, you truly have no reason to take offense. If you want to take umbrage with the program, by all means, do so,but doing so in a group meant to be supportive of others on a website owned by the very company you despise is counterproductive at the very least.
@ ramon,Nothing wrong with being a computer programmer. Being a female one in the hood where you constantly have to threaten to bust knees to get paid for assignments is the problem... I write to supplement my income because projects tend to be few and very far between....
I've been watching this thread on and off, as I'm trying to wrap up my book. I'm sorry if this has been said, I hate to be repetitive, but I do believe Amazon is giving authors the opportunity to opt out of the KU program before your 90 days is up if an author finds the new program not compatible with their work. Again, sorry if that has already been discussed.
If I could redirect the conversation, I am concerned about the measuring mechanisms being used to count our new KENPC page count. I have an author friend whose books are shorter than mine by 10k and 15k words respectively. Both her books are an average of 100 pages longer in KENPC than mine. I've emailed Amazon about this. She uploaded her books double spaced and mine are single spaced. Basically, the measuring mechanisms aren't working. This has distressed me more than anything about the new process.
I'm not sure if word count is a more fair way to compensate, but something is amiss.
Brynne wrote: "I've been watching this thread on and off, as I'm trying to wrap up my book. I'm sorry if this has been said, I hate to be repetitive, but I do believe Amazon is giving authors the opportunity to ..."Hi Brynne,
Yes, I posted about this issue a while ago and have since spoken to Amazon. Apparently yes, they are aware that there are still some things like font and spacing that cause issues, but that there are caps in place at the moment and they are reviewimg what to tighten up next. Gibe it time and the normalized page counts will be more normalized. In the meantime, your beat bet is to make sure that all of your work is uniform and uploaded at what you would consider readable. I'm currently reformatting my first series to match the rest of my books and my page count as become more uniform as well. I wouls, however, stick to single spacing. It is not worth the extra few cents if it means putting off readers with odd formatting.
B.B. wrote: "Please refrain from trashing those who write ''verbose" long winded novels, Rob. You've expressed this several times, anymore and your posts will be deleted. This isn't the place to air your anger ..."Well, I hope this goes without saying... but just because a novel is "long" doesn't mean it's "verbose." Verbose implies using words just for the sake of padding. One definition of "verbose" is "too many words, or wordy." And that's NOT the case with any well-written novel.
If a well-written novel is long, that's because there's a rich, complex plot that needs time to play out. It's hard for me to believe that someone would write a lot of words simply to reach a certain page or word count. Some writers naturally write LONG stories, others naturally write SHORTER stories. Both are good, provided they're well written.
One of my favorite novels is 1,400 pages in print, and I savor every one of those pages.
April
For what it's worth, KU accounts for about 75% of my book traffic, so I have a vested interest in the ongoing success of KU... and in the success of Amazon as an e-book retailer. If it weren't for Amazon, I never would have published. That makes me a big Amazon fan.April
Christina wrote: "Brynne wrote: "I've been watching this thread on and off, as I'm trying to wrap up my book. I'm sorry if this has been said, I hate to be repetitive, but I do believe Amazon is giving authors the ..."Thanks, Christina. I've emailed as well. I'm pretty sure I received a form letter (haha) but they did add at the end that they were going to double check my calculations and get back to me by tomorrow. If something has changed or I get something that doesn't look like it was meant for the masses, I'll report back to you!
I do appreciate all the shared applicable information on this thread. I've found it helpful that you all have shared your research that I'm sure took a great deal of time to pick through. Thank you!
Dickens literally got paid by the word. Some people like that kind of writing, and they deserve to be entertained just as someone like me who prefers the bones to the meat.
Mod
Your works are the perfect length. At least the ones I've read. Size really doesn't matter when it comes to writing.
Mod
I think you're taking offense where none is meant. You have stated repeatedly that you feel you're being penalized because you have shorter works. No one is saying anything nasty, we're stating that your opinion is just that, an opinion.
If you are taking and ascribing feelings to things, then that's on you. As for the rest of it, I still say either accept that it's Amazon, and they're going to do what they want, or remove your books from KU to show your dissatisfaction. If enough authors were to do that, KU would change again.
It is what it is.
oh, and to quote you, "As for all you doorstop writers happy about coming out on top at the expense of novelette/novella writers: congrats on coming out on top, I'm happy for you, but a bit of consideration for those hardworking novelette/novella writers might be in place. "
That is a bit rude and condescending to those who write "Doorstop" books. This is what a rude condescending comment looks like.
Charles wrote: "Dickens literally got paid by the word. Some people like that kind of writing, and they deserve to be entertained just as someone like me who prefers the bones to the meat."
That's the way they usually paid writers until digital books came along. Almost all of my short stores were first published in magazines that paid by the word, and now I've put them in digital and paperback collections to get paid a different way.
That's the way they usually paid writers until digital books came along. Almost all of my short stores were first published in magazines that paid by the word, and now I've put them in digital and paperback collections to get paid a different way.
Ken wrote: "Charles wrote: "Dickens literally got paid by the word. Some people like that kind of writing, and they deserve to be entertained just as someone like me who prefers the bones to the meat."That'..."
Most of the places I submitted to had a flat rate for shorts, and a cap on length. But I didn't bother going for any of the big boys.
B.B. wrote: ""Don't you make that face at me. :p
Mod
If it weren't for Amazon, I wouldn't even be published. They're the ones spearheading the movement, and everyone else is just following the example they've set. So in that aspect, supporting Amazon is supporting Indie Authors. Amazon controls 65% of the ebook market, and ebooks make up 35% (and growing) of the overall publishing market. If they can't keep KU solvent, it will fail, and none of us will get anything. If Amazon fails, we all fail. Smashwords ain't gonna save us. Smashwords would get bought out by one of the big 5 and either altered or shut down completely if Amazon wasn't taking all the heat. "
Agreed with this whole thing, especially the part I bolded.
Just want to add this as one who mostly writes shorts and novellas (I will have novels out eventually) - I find it a very fair system. Why not? If someone writes a five hundred page book and I write a twenty page, why should I make the same money as they? But, here's the kicker - I have nearly 20 pieces published and more coming soon. So, maybe per piece I am not making as much, but one customer could borrow more of my works than they could if I only had two or three novels.
Mod
"
Exactly, remember guys, you aren't surrendering ALL your rights. Just your book publishing ones, to put it out through a network that Amazon has marketed hard for. I don't blame them for wanting to find what works best for them, and I look forward to watching where it goes. It's too early to really have an opinion on the matter other than that.
Isn't KU used mostly by indie publishers? I think I read somewhere that the big 5 publishers don't participate in KU. IF that's right (can someone confirm?), then KU gives indies an advantage over traditionally published authors... cause people like FREE. And that helps level the playing field.April
Mod
KU can only be used on works published exclusively through Amazon. They created it, they get to set the parameters where they wish. We're allowed to use it for free. It's a privilege, not a right. This is why I am not getting upset if they feel they need to tweak it a bit.
Dwayne wrote: "April wrote: "Isn't KU used mostly by indie publishers? ...cause people like FREE."KU can only be used on works published exclusively through Amazon. They created it, they get to set the paramete..."
@Dwayne... oh, right. I forgot the KDP Select aspect of it. Then, of course the big publishers don't use KU. Thanks for pointing that out.
April
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According to Amazon's sample c..."
While I said it wasn't a bad idea you make one good point, calculations. If the calculations go smoothly then I see no issue but if they mess it up or make weird calculations based on the number of pages read it could cause problems.