Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Divine Comedy, Dante
>
Paradiso 3: The Moon/Inconstancy/Piccarda
It is interesting to consider this Canto in light of Pope Benedict's announcement. As we live into an era where advanced old age is a very real possibility for many, especially those with good care available to them, the Pope's decision hardly seems like inconstancy to religious vows and responsibilities to at least some of us. One wonders if the same would have been the judgement of Dante and his peers. Contemporary judgement likewise appears to be deeply divided.The following is from a Reuters article:
"The last pope to resign willingly was Celestine V in 1294 after reigning for only five months, his resignation was known as 'the great refusal' and was condemned by the poet Dante in the 'Divine Comedy'. Gregory XII reluctantly abdicated in 1415 to end a dispute with a rival claimant to the papacy." [Bold added.]
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/0...
Timely article, Lily. My take was that "the great refuser" (if it was Celestine that Dante was referring to) was deemed so bad because he put his own intersts ahead of the intersts of the Church...and as a result a bad man became the next Pope (boniface). But when I read the article below...maybe Celestine WASN'T fit to be pope. Mmm. And if the pope to follow Benedict makes policy changes that many believe to be wrong, mmm, then yes, maybe some would think poorly of Benedict for refusing to serve to the end. Interesting. Thanks, Lily.
http://www.christianity.com/church/ch...
http://www.christianity.com/church/ch...
Interesting opening.
"The sun who first had warmed my breast with love
in proving and reproving showed to me
the sweet and lovely visage of the truth,
For which I raised my head just so, to say
that she had made me certain, and confess
myself corrected from my errant way,
But a new vision rose before my eyes,
so seizing me to fathom what it was
that my confession vanished from my mind" (Para. III.1+)
So if the sun in some way refers to God, then God has shown Dante the truth--the error of Dante's thinking.
And Dante is in the act of raising his head---like Beatrice's head is raised (Canto II.22)...to look upwards.
And Dante was just about to confess. Wouldn't it be necessary to confess and admit one's errors before one can come face to face with God? So won't Dante at some point in The Paradiso have to confess?
But just before Dante confesses, his mind is pulled back to what the rational/earthly source/explanation of the faces might be. He's still spiritually deficient, yes? Still easily turned aside from his spiritual focus?
"The sun who first had warmed my breast with love
in proving and reproving showed to me
the sweet and lovely visage of the truth,
For which I raised my head just so, to say
that she had made me certain, and confess
myself corrected from my errant way,
But a new vision rose before my eyes,
so seizing me to fathom what it was
that my confession vanished from my mind" (Para. III.1+)
So if the sun in some way refers to God, then God has shown Dante the truth--the error of Dante's thinking.
And Dante is in the act of raising his head---like Beatrice's head is raised (Canto II.22)...to look upwards.
And Dante was just about to confess. Wouldn't it be necessary to confess and admit one's errors before one can come face to face with God? So won't Dante at some point in The Paradiso have to confess?
But just before Dante confesses, his mind is pulled back to what the rational/earthly source/explanation of the faces might be. He's still spiritually deficient, yes? Still easily turned aside from his spiritual focus?
http://www.lockportstreetgallery.com/...
Salvador Dali: Paradiso Canto 3. “Piccarda Donati.”
Once again, the delicacy of color, the arms outstretched and uplifted as if in joy, the streaming light, .... This is Paradiso, albeit the humblest ring.
Okay -- I keep messing this one up. I just tried erasing it, so it appeared only in this thread, where it belongs. But, it has been commented upon in the Canto 2 thread, so I'm going to leave it both places. C'est la vie!
Can hierarchies be humble? Only if everyone wants only the place he is in.
Roger wrote: "Can hierarchies be humble? Only if everyone wants only the place he is in."I think that is a masculine assessment of the nature of hierarchies?
Lily wrote: "Roger wrote: "Can hierarchies be humble? Only if everyone wants only the place he is in."I think that is a masculine assessment of the nature of hierarchies?"
Are nunneries any different from monasteries?
Adelle wrote: "Timely article, Lily. My take was that "the great refuser" (if it was Celestine that Dante was referring to) was deemed so bad because he put his own intersts ahead of the intersts of the Church....."Very interesting, Adelle and Lily!
Adelle wrote: "Interesting opening. "The sun who first had warmed my breast with love
in proving and reproving showed to me
the sweet and lovely visage of the truth,
For which I raised my head just so, ..."
I think you're right, Adelle. Stand by for a confession. But--didn't that occur at the end of Purgatorio?
Lily wrote: "(Is Paradise, as presented by Dante, a place of humility? That question is still open for me. Can hierarchies ever be innately humble?) ”"
I think Piccarda answers this when she says, " Brother, the power of love quiets our will and makes us wish only for that which have and gives us no other thirst." (3.70)
Just like those in Purgatory are freed when they desire their punishment as much as they desired the sin, those in Paradise desire their status in accordance with God's will. To love God is to love his hierarchy. It sounds somewhat similar to Islam in that regard.
@10 Laurele wrote: "..Stand by for a confession. But--didn't that occur at the end of Purgatorio? ."
Not that I remember, but I'll go back and check. ;) A lot of that going back and checking in these Western Canon works.
EDIT ADDED. I couldn't find anything like a confession at the end of Purgatorio.
Not that I remember, but I'll go back and check. ;) A lot of that going back and checking in these Western Canon works.
EDIT ADDED. I couldn't find anything like a confession at the end of Purgatorio.
Thomas wrote: "{Regarding hieracrchies]
I think Piccarda answers this when she says..."
I think you're right, Thomas, about the similarity with the acceptance of punishments in Purgatory.
Since there is free will, I'm supposing that those who push themselves to their utmost--who strive to develop themselves spiritually--will find themselves further up in Paradise.
But perhaps not... I suppose I should wait and see who Dante has placed near the top.
I think Piccarda answers this when she says..."
I think you're right, Thomas, about the similarity with the acceptance of punishments in Purgatory.
Since there is free will, I'm supposing that those who push themselves to their utmost--who strive to develop themselves spiritually--will find themselves further up in Paradise.
But perhaps not... I suppose I should wait and see who Dante has placed near the top.
Roger wrote: "Lily wrote: "Roger wrote: "Can hierarchies be humble? Only if everyone wants only the place he is in."I think that is a masculine assessment of the nature of hierarchies?"
Are nunneries any dif..."
I'm not about to suggest that nunneries are necessarily humbly organized establishments. I've seen them allow a lot of room for ambition as well as for servanthood. Now, I realize one can argue, the greater the scope of responsibility, the greater the servanthood provided back into the world.
But, I have perhaps been reading the Beatitudes and the pleas of the disciples as to who shall be first a few times too often in recent months to not affect conceptions of what God's will "on earth as it is in heaven" might possibly be.
Matthew 5: 1-12.
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matt...
Mark 9: 33-37
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Mark+9
http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Gustave Doré: Paradiso Canto III.49. “Piccarda Donati and Souls Whose Vows Had Been Broken.” c.1868. Engraving.
"Piccarda Donati: Sister of Forese and Corso Donati. Piccarda became a nun around 1212. Between 1283-88, Corso abducted her and forced her to marry Rossellino della Tosa so that the family might effect an advantageous political alliance." (The dates on this quotation don't make sense. Other sources are needed. Below is more from Wikipedia, but it does not supply dates:)
"Through Dante's encounter with Piccarda, we first begin to learn about the nature of Heaven. For example, we learn that souls in Heaven become much more beautiful than they were on Earth; in fact, it takes Dante a while to actually recognize Piccarda as the woman he knew. In higher spheres, souls become so beautiful they cease to resemble their earthly selves. Piccarda is the only person Dante will recognize, unaided, in Heaven.
"Dante asks Piccarda if she does not long to be placed higher in Heaven. Her answer (she does not wish to be higher) highlights another important point. According to Piccarda, blessed souls long only for what they have, and so their wills are entirely in agreement with that of God. If they desired to be higher in heaven, then their wish would differ from God's will, which is an impossibility. Though they know there are others in higher spheres of Heaven, they rejoice in their placement."
Much of which begs the questions of what is the place of ugliness (physical) and suffering (if any) in heaven. My thoughts go to Eco's History of Beauty and On Ugliness . Does the little boy with the cleft palate find it restored? Is the ordinary woman simply one with a "good face" rather than a "plain face," as Stephen King's mother taught him to distinguish, or at least acknowledge?
http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Giovanni di Paolo: Paradiso Canto 3.46. “Meeting with Piccarda and Costanza in the Heaven of the Moon.” c.1450. Manuscript illumination. Yates Thompson 36. British Library.
Lily wrote: "http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...Gustave Doré: Paradiso Canto III.49. “Piccarda Donati and Souls Whose Vows Had Been Broken.” c.1868. Engraving.
"P..."
Doré keeps surprising me. All that light!
Lily wrote: "http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Giovanni di Paolo: Paradiso Canto 3.46. “Meeting with Piccarda and Costanza in the Heaven of the Moon.” c.1450. Manuscript illuminatio..."
Somehow I had pictured a full moon.
Giovanni di Paolo: Paradiso Canto 3.46. “Meeting with Piccarda and Costanza in the Heaven of the Moon.” c.1450. Manuscript illuminatio..."
Somehow I had pictured a full moon.
Adelle wrote: "Somehow I had pictured a full moon."http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Thank you for the comment, Adelle. Somehow, I missed that it wasn't full. I had to look again. My only guess is that the artist wanted to be certain it was a moon depicted, rather than a sun or planet?
My question is even more fundamental -- which figure is Dante, which is Beatrice? And what is happening at the fountain on the right?
Here is a good article on the Pope's resignation. I should probably have put this in another thread, but since we have been discussing it here relative to constancy of vows, I'll take this freedom:http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/11/opi...
From the article: "And by some accounts, Benedict made three pilgrimages to the tomb of Pope Celestine V, who resigned from the papacy in 1294."
Web pages like the one above tend to morph without warning, but this morning I was able to watch Pope Benedict reading his resignation as a voice stated the text in English. I found the video moving, including watching two priests in the background, one virtually motionless and expressionless, the other willing to allow eye movement.
http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
John Flaxman: Paradiso Canto III.16. “Dante Sees Faces of Many Spirits Ready to Speak with Him.” 1793. Engraving.
Canto 3.7-27 (Hollander)
but then appeared a sight
which so drew my attention
that my confession quickly slipped from mind.
As through clear, transparent glass
or through still and limpid water,
not so deep that its bed is lost from view,
the outlines of our faces are returned
so faint a pearl on a pallid forehead
comes no less clearly to our eyes,
I saw many such faces eager to speak,
at which I fell into the error opposite to that
which inflamed a man to love a fountain.
As soon as I became aware of them,
believing them to be reflections,
I turned around to see from whom they came
Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Somehow I had pictured a full moon."
http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Thank you for the comment, Adelle. Somehow
, I missed that it wasn't full. I had t..."
Di Paolo's moon in the Canto II painting is like a crescent moon. I thought for the same reason you put forward...so we would know it was the moon. So I wondered??? Did people in di Paolo's time think that when they saw a crescentmoon that part of the moon was actually missing??
Off on the right-hand side, I'm thinking that that is to represent that Dante had THOUHGT that the faces he saw were "like a reflection in water.".EDIT ADDED: maybe the reflection is in such a "fountain" as was in the quote you posted at 21. EDIT ADDED: The guy at the fountain is probably Narcissus.
Maybe the flying woman with the glowing orb is Beatrice...what with her being able to stare into the sun and all. "in my glance she blazed like lightning fire, so bright I found it unendurable" (Para. 3.128).
Maybe the wispy, blowy character on the left side is to remind of us of Henry VI! whom I think
Constance was forced to marry...called a "the second gust of wind" at line 119.
http://www.worldofdante.org/media/ima...
Thank you for the comment, Adelle. Somehow
, I missed that it wasn't full. I had t..."
Di Paolo's moon in the Canto II painting is like a crescent moon. I thought for the same reason you put forward...so we would know it was the moon. So I wondered??? Did people in di Paolo's time think that when they saw a crescentmoon that part of the moon was actually missing??
Off on the right-hand side, I'm thinking that that is to represent that Dante had THOUHGT that the faces he saw were "like a reflection in water.".EDIT ADDED: maybe the reflection is in such a "fountain" as was in the quote you posted at 21. EDIT ADDED: The guy at the fountain is probably Narcissus.
Maybe the flying woman with the glowing orb is Beatrice...what with her being able to stare into the sun and all. "in my glance she blazed like lightning fire, so bright I found it unendurable" (Para. 3.128).
Maybe the wispy, blowy character on the left side is to remind of us of Henry VI! whom I think
Constance was forced to marry...called a "the second gust of wind" at line 119.
Or maybe Frederick Ii...maybe Frederick II ends up in Heaven...and Dante called him "the final gust of wind." EDIT ADDED: I had forgotten....Frederick II is in the Inferno. Canto X.
And I would designate the red head in the short tunic as Dante...because his feet are still below on earth.
And I would designate the red head in the short tunic as Dante...because his feet are still below on earth.
For another amazing image for Canto III, try this site, for Amos Nattini:http://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/pdp...
"In 1921, on the occasion of the 600th anniversary of Dante Alighieri’s death, the Istituto nazionale dantesco in Milan commissioned a new, illustrated edition of the poet’s Divine Comedy. The artist chosen for the project was Amos Nattini, who was charged with creating one plate for each canto. For the next twenty years, Nattini worked on his Dante, releasing each of the three volumes are they were completed in 1928, 1936, and finally 1941.
"Princeton is fortunate to hold two sets of Nattini’s elephant portfolios, one of which needed to be moved recently. Special thanks go to John Walako and Mike Siravo who helped to lift volumes. No question that this is the heaviest poem ever published."
http://blogs.princeton.edu/graphicart...
Pursuing the illustrations of Commedia is becoming more fascinating as we go. My reaction to this one: absolutely gorgeous!
Now, back to the 14th century and the Bodleian manuscript:For Paradiso Canto III images from the Bodleian Library 14th century manuscript try these:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwms...
Paradiso, Canto III. "Beatrice Leads Dante to Piccarda and Costanza, Who Are Followed by Other Souls."
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwms...
Paradiso, Canto III. "Costanza and Other Souls Listen as Piccarda Speaks to Dante; Beatrice."
Lily wrote: "For another amazing image for Canto III, try this site, for Amos Nattini:http://etcweb.princeton.edu/dante/pdp...
"In 1921, on the occasion of the 600th anniversary of ..."
Why is does Nattini show this circle inhabited only by women?
...only women break their vows???
well, no. VERY nice observation.
well, no. VERY nice observation.
Roger wrote: "Why is does Nattini show this circle inhabited only by women? ..."I have wondered, too, about the preponderance of women in so many of these "soul" or "spirit" images. Very different than Inferno. Now, Nattini is working 1921 - 1944. If anyone sees any comments in the background material they have been reading, please do at least send us that way. (I have been interested, too, in the use of Beatrice as the "Wisdom" or "Sophia" figure. I have seen commentary that links Christ, not Beatrice, with Wisdom. All nicely not "either-or" thinking, as an online Columbia lecture yesterday decried as not particularly useful in today's [managerial] world. Now, try following the "nots" in that convoluted sentence. Hope I got the meaning I intended. Sorry.:-( )
(The Bodleian manuscript seems to show women in this circle, too.)
Wisdom is usually personified as a woman. The noun is feminine in Hebrew (Proverbs 1:20) and in Greek (Matthew 11:19).
Roger wrote: "Wisdom is usually personified as a woman. The noun is feminine in Hebrew (Proverbs 1:20) and in Greek (Matthew 11:19)."Which is apparently part of why the "Holy Spirit" is sometimes "imagined" as the feminine of the Trinity. There is some Old Testament verse that I can't recall right now that is frequently the one quoted. But thanks for the Hebrew/Greek lesson. I have probably heard that before, but could not have recalled it. For me, equally interesting was the note that linked Christ with Wisdom, but I don't think that idea was entirely a new thought either -- just don't recall the linkages and cross linkages.
Lily wrote: "Much of which begs the questions of what is the place of ugliness (physical) and suffering (if any) in heaven. My thoughts go to Eco's History of Beauty and On Ugliness . Does the little boy with the cleft palate find it restored? Is the ordinary woman simply one with a "good face" rather than a "plain face," as Stephen King's mother taught him to distinguish, or at least acknowledge? "Fascinating questions. And relative to that, did you see the oblique reference to Narcissus?
Lily wrote: "Pursuing the illustrations of Commedia is becoming more fascinating as we go. My reaction to this one: absolutely gorgeous! "I cannot help contrasting the art you've been wonderfully giving us with what passes for art today. What an art vacuum our children are growing up with. (Ditto music. Sigh.)
Everyman wrote: "I cannot help contrasting the art you've been wonderfully giving us with what passes for art today. What an art vacuum our children are growing up with. (Ditto music. Sigh.) ..."Thank you, Eman. And, at the same time, I'll suggest that today's art poses the challenges our children and grandchildren must face in addressing the world we have left them. (Can't speak for music -- don't have the same feel for it.)
I'm fascinated that Dante sees levels in Paradise. I know those in the lower level are supposed to be satisfied with where they are, but I do wonder how the Christian establishment, and the ordinary worshiper, would have taken this -- you live a devout life, you get to Heaven, but you're still only good enough for one of the bottom rungs. And apparently no hope of ever going higher. I wouldn't have thought that this would be very encouraging to the devout.And where did Dante get this from, anyhow? It hardly seems Biblical, does it? Laurel, is there anywhere in the Bible that suggests that you can make it to Heaven but only so-so? Perhaps these are the many mansions in God's house, but if so, it seems that the mansions vary from castles to huts.
Anyhow, I can't think that the clergy were all that happy being told that while their parishioners might make it to Heaven, a bunch of them were likely to wind up down at the bottom of the place and never get any higher.
Everyman wrote: " you live a devout life, you get to Heaven, but you're still only good enough for one of the bottom rungs. And apparently no hope of ever going higher. "This is explained in the next Canto. It seems to be a basic structural problem with Dante's Paradise, so he has to explain it away pretty quickly.
Everyman wrote: "I'm fascinated that Dante sees levels in Paradise. I know those in the lower level are supposed to be satisfied with where they are, but I do wonder how the Christian establishment, and the ordina..."They are not really on the part of the heavens where they appear to Dante. They descend to that level just to talk with the pilgrim--to accommodate to his level of understanding.
I don't think the medieval churchmen would blink an eye about hierarchies in heaven, though, since their entire worldview was hierarchical--the Great Chain of Being.
The Bible definitely teaches that there are differing ranks of angels and other heavenly beings (angels, archangels, seraphim, cherubim, etc.) As to the saved humans, the Bible says that some are saved "yet so as by fire"--which, I suppose was the reasoning the church used when they came up with Purgatory in the 1200's. There are differing rewards in heaven, but since there is no envy, I don't think anyone will mind.
1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
I suppose we should be keeping in mind the last two chapters of the Bible--Revelation 21 and 22--as we read Purgatorio:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?...
at 34 Everyman wrote: Perhaps these are the many mansions in God's house, but if so, it seems that the mansions vary from castles to huts."
Found something that addresses that.
"In this Dante follows the interpretation of Saint Thomas Aquinas of the words of Christ in John 14.2: 'In my Father's house there are many dwelling places.' Aquinas asserts that these dwelling places or 'mansions' are metaphorical degrees of bliss:
'Now the heavenly kingdom is compared to a city,' he writes. 'Therefore we should distinguish various mansions there according to the various degrees of beatitude' (ST 3)(Companion page 183).
Found something that addresses that.
"In this Dante follows the interpretation of Saint Thomas Aquinas of the words of Christ in John 14.2: 'In my Father's house there are many dwelling places.' Aquinas asserts that these dwelling places or 'mansions' are metaphorical degrees of bliss:
'Now the heavenly kingdom is compared to a city,' he writes. 'Therefore we should distinguish various mansions there according to the various degrees of beatitude' (ST 3)(Companion page 183).
Thomas wrote: "Everyman wrote: " you live a devout life, you get to Heaven, but you're still only good enough for one of the bottom rungs. And apparently no hope of ever going higher. "This is explained in the next Canto. It seems to be a basic structural problem with Dante's Paradise, so he has to explain it away pretty quickly."
Thomas -- I laughed out loud when I read this! Thanks!
I think maybe the ability to "explain away" has been becoming one of the endearing attributes of Dante to me over the course of reading the Commedia, but I doubt I would have seen that clearly enough to put into such succinct words! lol!
Adelle wrote: "Found something that addresses that."In this Dante follows the interpretation of Saint Thomas Aquinas of the words of Christ in John 14.2: 'In my Father's house there are many dwelling places.' Aquinas asserts that these dwelling places or 'mansions' are metaphorical degrees of bliss: "
Great find! I haven't touched Aquinas since leaving St. John's, which is probably my loss but there are so many books, so little time ...
There ARE so many books...
And I know this is me wanting Heaven to reflect my Earthly wishes...but I would have Heaven as an awesome library with comfortable chairs, good lighting, and non-fattening cafe mochas.
And I know this is me wanting Heaven to reflect my Earthly wishes...but I would have Heaven as an awesome library with comfortable chairs, good lighting, and non-fattening cafe mochas.
A "new" Paradiso?http://www.actualitte.com/images/news...
I still want a recliner, to say nothing of "real" books.
Hmmm... maybe: http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml...
Lily wrote: "A "new" Paradiso?http://www.actualitte.com/images/news...
I still want a recliner, to say nothing of "real" books.
Hmmm... maybe: http://www.shutterstock.com/cat.mhtml......"
I'm sitting in my recliner in my library of beautiful books reading the Hollanders's Paradiso on my Kindle and comparing it to paperbacks of Longfellow and Sayers and pausing a moment to send this post via my iPad. And yes, my cat is here supervising. I want it all. Is this paradise? (I also just finished a bowl of mocha chocolate almond ice cream.)
@ 34 Everyman wrote: I'm fascinated that Dante sees levels in Paradise. I know those in the lower level are supposed to be satisfied with where they are, but I do wonder how the Christian establishment, and the ordinary worshiper, would have taken this -- you live a devout life, you get to Heaven, but you're still only good enough for one of the bottom rungs. And apparently no hope of ever going higher. I wouldn't have thought that this would be very encouraging to the devout.
And where did Dante get this from, anyhow? It hardly seems Biblical, does it? Laurel, is there anywhere in the Bible that suggests that you can make it to Heaven but only so-so? Perhaps these are the many mansions in God's house, but if so, it seems that the mansions vary from castles to huts.
Anyhow, I can't think that the clergy were all that happy being told that while their parishioners might make it to Heaven, a bunch of them were likely to wind up down at the bottom of the place and never get any higher. "
Been thinking about this.
You know, initially, your remarks seemed quite acceptable...logical even...maybe even "obvious."
But I've had to return and rethink.
And now...lol, many days later... two things seem worth considering.
(1) I would think that --- based on Dante's structure -- those who have accepted and embraced God AND who had been the most loving (Hope, Faith, and Charity...and the greatest of these is Charity) would have been "reflected" in the highest spheres.
I would think, too, (after several days), that the ... "better" Christian [for lack of a more appropriate word I use "better"], whether that Christian was a member of the clergy or a poor parishioner, would accept/embrace--during earthly life or once in paradise---where God would place them spiritually. "Not my will, but Yours."
It rather strikes me that the kind of people who would be bothered by the lower status/light/location they thought God might accord them are precisely the kind of people who WOULD ... "deserve" ... to be represented in the lower spheres.
And (2) I think maybe there's a message here for the people on earth. The people in Italy. The people in Florence.
There's such political instability. Various groups fighting for position. Church members fighting for position.
Perhaps Dante, here, is also putting forward the thought that if people would accept where God had placed them in life the world would be a better place to live.
If Dante could get people to see the similarities:
God loves all his souls in Heaven; but those souls have been accorded differing power and light and position; and all accept this and are happy.
God, Dante might be trying to say???, loves all his people on earth; but the people on earth have been given differing power and influence; and that if the people could accept where God had placed them the people would have a life without constant civil wars, etc. A stable life on earth might be a happier life on earth.
I don't know the Church's position in the 1200s, but there was limited wealth....I kinda thought that the Church (along with the secular world) did believe that generally speaking people WERE where they were supposed to be...
[EDITED ADDED: Perhaps, "Work hard, do your best, but don't envy those richer than you; don't despise where you are."
Perhaps something along the lines from Coleridge:
"He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all."
Could be mistaken.
Thanks, Eman, for making me think about it.
And where did Dante get this from, anyhow? It hardly seems Biblical, does it? Laurel, is there anywhere in the Bible that suggests that you can make it to Heaven but only so-so? Perhaps these are the many mansions in God's house, but if so, it seems that the mansions vary from castles to huts.
Anyhow, I can't think that the clergy were all that happy being told that while their parishioners might make it to Heaven, a bunch of them were likely to wind up down at the bottom of the place and never get any higher. "
Been thinking about this.
You know, initially, your remarks seemed quite acceptable...logical even...maybe even "obvious."
But I've had to return and rethink.
And now...lol, many days later... two things seem worth considering.
(1) I would think that --- based on Dante's structure -- those who have accepted and embraced God AND who had been the most loving (Hope, Faith, and Charity...and the greatest of these is Charity) would have been "reflected" in the highest spheres.
I would think, too, (after several days), that the ... "better" Christian [for lack of a more appropriate word I use "better"], whether that Christian was a member of the clergy or a poor parishioner, would accept/embrace--during earthly life or once in paradise---where God would place them spiritually. "Not my will, but Yours."
It rather strikes me that the kind of people who would be bothered by the lower status/light/location they thought God might accord them are precisely the kind of people who WOULD ... "deserve" ... to be represented in the lower spheres.
And (2) I think maybe there's a message here for the people on earth. The people in Italy. The people in Florence.
There's such political instability. Various groups fighting for position. Church members fighting for position.
Perhaps Dante, here, is also putting forward the thought that if people would accept where God had placed them in life the world would be a better place to live.
If Dante could get people to see the similarities:
God loves all his souls in Heaven; but those souls have been accorded differing power and light and position; and all accept this and are happy.
God, Dante might be trying to say???, loves all his people on earth; but the people on earth have been given differing power and influence; and that if the people could accept where God had placed them the people would have a life without constant civil wars, etc. A stable life on earth might be a happier life on earth.
I don't know the Church's position in the 1200s, but there was limited wealth....I kinda thought that the Church (along with the secular world) did believe that generally speaking people WERE where they were supposed to be...
[EDITED ADDED: Perhaps, "Work hard, do your best, but don't envy those richer than you; don't despise where you are."
Perhaps something along the lines from Coleridge:
"He prayeth best, who loveth best
All things both great and small;
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth all."
Could be mistaken.
Thanks, Eman, for making me think about it.
I've been wondering from the beginning why Dante's afterworld is so highly structured. For all its beauty it also seems artificial, and that seems especially so in Paradise. What is the purpose of these levels? Later Beatrice says that souls appear to reside at a certain station, but they don't, really. The appearance is just for the sake of Dante's instruction. In one of Mazzotta's early lectures he says that the Comedy is an encyclopedia in poetic form, and that one of his goals was to educate his readers about all aspects of the world. I can see this now, though I don't think it's his only goal. But it seems to apply especially in Paradise. Does Dante (the pilgrim) really need to know about the spots of the moon? Not really, but it gives Dante (the poet) a chance to explain some things about the nature of light, which operates in an analogous way to God's grace. He is creating a model for education.
Thomas, you bring a good point forward: Dante had long been engaged in a search for knowledge; it does seem as though he is trying to bring some of this knowledge forward to his readers (Italian).
I read something else this week that seems worth considering. That fundamentally there is a requirement that the various saved souls in the Paradiso reflect differently. Because God saves individuals; therefore there must be individuals in Paradise. Not a collection of souls indistingishable one from another/ all equal; but souls that in truth reflect the value and worth of their spirituality.
I know that as Dante rises the individuals he meets will be less recognizable to him---but that's only because what was their human aspect is more and more overlaid by their spiritual aspect---after all...the spiritual aspect is of core importance in Paradise.
I know that as Dante rises the individuals he meets will be less recognizable to him---but that's only because what was their human aspect is more and more overlaid by their spiritual aspect---after all...the spiritual aspect is of core importance in Paradise.
Thomas wrote: "I've been wondering from the beginning why Dante's afterworld is so highly structured. For all its beauty it also seems artificial, and that seems especially so in Paradise. What is the purpose of ..."And Beatrice, with all her admonition s to listen carefully and remember, is the model teacher, especially of young minds. One source that I read says that the levels of Paradise correspond to the liberal arts. Here it is, from Dante's Journey 3: Flight Log to the Highest Heaven, by J.C. Woods:
"Paradiso differs from the other canticles as Hell and Purgatory punish and correct. Figured as modern institutions, Hell is a prison, Purgatory a hospital, and Heaven a liberal arts university. The Heavenly curriculum replicates the Medieval Trivium (Grammar, Dialectic and Rhetoric) and Quadrivium (Arithmetic, Music, Geometry and Astronomy). These prerequisites prepare the candidate for post-graduate training in Physics, Metaphysics, Ethics and, the Queen of the Sciences, Theology.
"The pedagogy of Paradiso requires a change in poetic strategy. In Inferno and Purgatorio Dante meets shades where they dwell, but Heaven 'condescends.' The saints who meet Dante in the various spheres actually cohabit in the Empyrean. Heaven doles itself out in digestible portions."
Thanks, Laurele, Thomas.
Aesthically, Dante's Paradise requires multiple levels in order to correspond with the Inferno and the Purgatory.
But Dante must have meant for his most Paradise to have the most meaning.
I didn't know that Theology had been considered "the Queen of the Sciences."
Aesthically, Dante's Paradise requires multiple levels in order to correspond with the Inferno and the Purgatory.
But Dante must have meant for his most Paradise to have the most meaning.
I didn't know that Theology had been considered "the Queen of the Sciences."
Adelle wrote: "And (2) I think maybe there's a message here for the people on earth. The people in Italy. The people in Florence.There's such political instability. Various groups fighting for position. Church members fighting for position. "
That's a good reminder. Dante was not living through peaceful times, but rather through very tumultuous times. This has to have been reflected in his view of the world to come.
Also, he lived in a much more hierarchical world than we do, where it was the norm that people were assigned to various levels of the good things in life, and that's where they were. Could we really expect him to envisioned a world of total equality, where there was neither East nor West, border nor breed nor birth?
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Paradiso: a Verse Translation (other topics)History of Beauty (other topics)
On Ugliness (other topics)
------
AS DANTE IS ABOUT TO SPEAK to Beatrice he sees the dim traceries of human faces and taking them to be reflections, he turns to see what souls are being so reflected. Beatrice, as ever, explains that these pallid images are the souls themselves. They are THE INCONSTANT, the souls of those who registered holy vows in Heaven, but who broke or scanted them. Among them PICCARDA DONATI identifies herself, and then identifies THE EMPRESS CONSTANCE. Both, according to Dante’s beliefs, had taken vows as nuns but were forced to break them in order to contract a political marriage. Not all the souls about them need have failed in the same vows, however. Any failure to fulfill a holy vow (of holy orders, to go on a pilgrimage, to offer special services to God) might place the soul in this lowest class of the blessed. Piccarda explains that every soul in Heaven rejoices in the entire will of God and cannot wish for a higher place, for to do so would be to come into conflict with the will of God. In the perfect harmony of bliss, everywhere in Heaven is Paradise.
------
Reynolds/Sayers note:
------
Piccarda dei Donati, the sister of Corso Donati and of Dante’s friend, Forese (cf. Purg. xxiii and xxiv), entered the convent of St Clare in Florence while still a young woman. Her brother Corso obliged her to break her vows and marry Rossellino della Tosa, with whom he sought political alliance. Shortly after her marriage, Piccarda fell ill and died. Forese speaks tenderly of her beauty and virtue when questioned about her by Dante on the sixth cornice of Mount Purgatory. Her gentleness and sweetness of disposition, skilfully conveyed by her words to Dante, make her a fitting image in general of the nature that yields to the pressure of others and lacks the necessary steadfastness to remain constant to the will’s resolve. Specifically, both Piccarda and the Empress Constance, whom she names, are symbols of inconstancy to religious vows.
------