Challenger Deep, by Neal Shusterman → Start Date: August 29, 2015

[Vicki]

If you've never read a Neal Shusterman book or if you've read and loved him or if you didn't like him but want to give him another chance, please join Clementine and me!

[Mandiann]

I might join.

[Vicki]

Yes! You must join! It'sz a Neal Shusterman book! LOL

[Mandiann]

lol. Yes, I should. I still have to finish the unwind dystology.

[Vicki]

I shamefully never finished book 2.

[Clementine]

I shamefully haven't read the second book ebven though I have it. LOL

Glad to have you on board, Mandiann! :)

[Mandiann]

lol. you need to get it done so we can do book three.

[Clementine]

I shall, I shall! LOL

[Vicki]

Mandiann wrote: "lol. you need to get it done so we can do book three."

Okay, that's my new goal then. :o)

[Megan]

I'll join you guys!

[Vicki]

YIPPEE!! Glad to have you Megan! :o)

[Clementine]

Welcome, Megan! :)

[Vicki]

Clementine and anyone else who plans to join, I totally forgot to order my book until just now. The issue is that I had to order it from Link + so I won't probably have it until the end of next week. I don't want to hold anyone up though, so feel free to read and I'll catch up or read when I get it and discuss it at that time.

I am SO sorry I messed up!

[Trisha, lives on coffee]

aww, no worries Vicki! I think I'll be a day late with starting (or a few)

I have a lot of books to finish up but I may need to start Monday

I'll still be here when you get to it though :)

[Trisha, lives on coffee]

Clementine, Mandiann, and Megan

how are you guys with starting on time or a little late??

[Vicki]

Thank you, Trisha. I know I won't get my copy that fast from Link + but you never know! I just looked and it is already in transit! Now all our libraries are open six days a week, so it just might happen.

I'm trying to figure out how to sync my already planned BR's with the 30 days...forget what it's called. LOL Bingo blackout, smash 30 books, don't sleep for 30 days...something, but it'll be fun trying and (for me) quite humbling. LOL

[Trisha, lives on coffee]

don't sleep for 30 days! LOL
I love that idea for a challenge!! :)

[Vicki]

I do too! Lol

[Clementine]

Trisha: I have no choice but to start on time since someone placed a hold on my copy. :/

@Vicki: Hope you will catch up soon, Vicki. :)

[Trisha, lives on coffee]

Clementine wrote: "Trisha: I have no choice but to start on time since someone placed a hold on my copy. :/

@Vicki: Hope you will catch up soon, Vicki. :)"

ooh gotcha! Alright, I'll try to start just a day late :)

[Vicki]

Thank you, Clementine.

[Vicki]

OMG you guys! It suddenly dawned on me that I BOUGHT this book so I looked at Amazon and I bought it back in April. LOL Looks like I can start on time. Oh man, I'm losing it!

[Clementine]

Oh my god! Lol Vicki! :P

[Clementine]

Chapter 15: (view spoiler)[I still don't get the Captain/sea chapters. LOL Someone told me it was a metaphor and not a hallucination and I'm praying it's true otherwise it would head back to a Made You Up-like fiasco. However, Carden has disorganized thoughts, which is a much more accurate portrayal of schizophrenia than Made You Up claims to be. (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

Chapter 29: (view spoiler)[I still don't get the Captain angle of the book, but the rest is accurate portrayal of schizophrenia. The narrative is as scattered as his thought process. Brilliant. I'm enjoying this a lot. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Whoa, these chapters are shorter than James Patterson's books. LOL

Is this a book about (view spoiler)[schizophrenia? (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

@Vicki: (view spoiler)[yes. (hide spoiler)]

Yes, LOL, so short that I feel like I'm flying through this while I'm just 20% in. :P

[Vicki]

(view spoiler)[Okay, that makes more sense then. The disorganized thoughts, jumping around, etc. I didn't realize this was a book about schizo illness. Reading it with that in mind should be helpful. (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

(view spoiler)[Yes, the scattered thought process is well done. I still don't understand the captain and his crew though lol. It's metaphor for something I just don't see what lol. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Ch. 15

Is it possible that the captain is a (view spoiler)[metaphor for the doctor or psychiatrist? (hide spoiler)] I'm only 15% done, I think, but do you think that's feasible?

[Clementine]

That's what I thought since (view spoiler)[he's giving him out asignments, but at the same time... I hardly see how he's being helpful. And the stuff he says always ends up being a paradox... I thought at some point he was the Dad, in fact. But now I just don't know. (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

I mean it's feasible, technically, but (view spoiler)[ the navigator or even the parrot felt more like psychiatrist to me. I know the boat is his mind though. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

I just finished chapter 25 but I'm on my phone and on my way to my daughters house for dinner and a night of games. I will read more when I get back and post my thoughts later and read your spoilers.

[Clementine]

Chapter 34: (view spoiler)[What if everything on this boat is a metaphor for his mind and not for people? (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Yeah, I finished Ch. 40 and I'm still not sure, but one thing I am sure of (I think lol) is that the (view spoiler)[ship is definitely not reality...a hospital, perhaps? He goes down halls to go to the bathroom, there's that one guy with the mop, etc. (hide spoiler)] I still am not sure but keeping my options open. LOL

[Clementine]

I'm at chapter 40. The reason I think it's (view spoiler)[ his mind is because we use the metaphor of a sinking ship or a train passing a bridge to explain mental illness to patients and their relatives. So yeah, I'm biased. :P (hide spoiler)] But it's as you said; the auction is still open LOL. It kinda bothers me though that this part of the novel isn't clear. It feels unnecessary at the moment...

[Vicki]

I think that is be design and quite purposeful, because from what I know of (view spoiler)[schizophrenia, which is not much) the thoughts are quite scattered and without order. Schizos also either are or can be delusional. I am totally speaking of only what I've heard, but obviously you know what it is all about. I am hoping it all becomes clear. (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

Yes, but (view spoiler)[his thoughts are scattered in "the reality POV". I can tell more of his symptoms in fact from this POV than from Captain and Swabby. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Yes, I totally agree with you on that. In fact, I totally understand the (view spoiler)[reality POV. (hide spoiler)] Maybe I'm trying to hard to understand the other. LOL

Finished Ch. 60 and that's pretty much what I was going to talk about, his (view spoiler)[reality POV (hide spoiler)]

Oh my goodness, my heart breaks for Caden and (view spoiler)[others with schizophrenia. As a non-psychologist/psychiatrist, I only know about the illness in a generic way: the schizo has random thoughts and is delusional, often thinks his life is being threatened by others; however, never have I "witnessed" that thought process like I just did with Caden. My gosh, I can't even BEGIN to imagine hearing voices the way he does, knowing they must not be real but they still won't go away and sound very real. It's odd to me that he tends to "know" they aren't real and knows they are trying to get him to do things he doesn't want to, but he is quite capable (at least at this point) of saying, "NO. I don't want to do that!" But I have read before that someone killed or whatever because they kept having voices tell them to. So, as a non-pro in the field of brain disorders, I don't know what really happens. LOL Do they (schizos) or do they not do what the voices tell them to, or is that contingent on how bad their illness is? (hide spoiler)]

[Clementine]

My speciality is not (view spoiler)[schizophrenia (hide spoiler)] (yes, that's a speciality in itself, distinct from other psychiatric disorders LOL) but I think I can answer your question nonetheless. One of my friends is presently doing her clinical internship in (view spoiler)[schizophrenia and she told me once she had a patient butchered his own face because a voice told him that if he didn't, they would kill his parents. Hearing voices is contingent with a psychotic episode; patients with schizophrenia do not ALWAYS hear voices. They have episodes during which they do. These episodes often have a fearful valence. Patients are scared out of their minds (quite literally), because they think "it's not there", but then "what if it is and "reality" is just fiction?" It all goes hand-in-hand with their disorganized thoughts. If they listen to the voices, it's only to lower their rising anxiety and fear. So yes, even if "rationally", they know it's not there, they are afraid and to lower their anxiety, they need to do something in a certain manner, just to be on "the safe side". It has nothing to do with the gravity of their schizophrenia, but more with the resulting fear and anxiety of an acute episode and evidently, whether they are or not on their medications. In the case of Caden, it's the onset (first occurrence of symptoms) so that is probably why he's still able to say no to the voices. Second episodes are usually more much acute. But even if he says "no" to the voices now, you should note that he's more and more convinced of things he just happens "to know". He can't be yet diagnosed with schizophrenia because we usually wait until the second psychotic episode before making an official diagnostic (otherwise it could be a bunch of other disorders AND he's quite young... 15... Usually it's 17-18 years old in male patients). Some time usually passes between the onset and the second episode. (hide spoiler)] Hope that helps you out! ^_^

[Vicki]

Wow! That was very educational! :o) Thank you for taking the time to explain all of that.

Finished Ch. 85 and I'm literally (view spoiler)[in tears! I feel so bad for Caden. OMG! To see and hear different things and not to be able to differentiate between what is real and what isn't would be HORRIBLE!!! He didn't even know if he was inside the fish tank or not? Ugh! (hide spoiler)]

If I understood what I read, I still think the (view spoiler)[ship is the hospital. Right before his parents took him to the psych hospital, they told him they were taking him on a cruise; instead, they took him to the hospital. He brings up the White Plastic Kitchen again and it all (in my mind) fits together, but not 100% on how each thing/person fits. Example, Calliope. And when the nurses tell him about his vitals, he still isn't sure which things they are saying and which he is hearing, which seems to fit with your explanation above. I'd say Shusterman is a brilliant writer! (hide spoiler)]

This is probably not (in real life) laughable, but I couldn't help but to laugh when he said that the (view spoiler)[parrot wanted him to kill the captain and the captain wanted him to kill the parrot. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Finished ch. 112

No reason to post at this particular point but needed a break from reading. LOL

This is a very compelling read and (view spoiler)[journey into the mind of a schizophrenic. I really do think Shusterman's writing is brilliant. I feel Caden's illness progressing (or is that just me?). (hide spoiler)]

I'm not too sure of the characters right now. (view spoiler)[Who is Hal? I think both Carlyle and Callie (Calliope) were mentioned on the "ship" before, but is Hal new? (hide spoiler)]

I can see why the author titled his book Challenger Deep, too. I had to look it up and found this: "If you cut Mount Everest off at sea level and put it on the ocean bottom in the Challenger Deep, there would still be over a mile of water over the top of it!" So the title itself in my opinion has to do with the (view spoiler)[abyss or the total depth to which the schizophrenic mind can go. The severe pressure that the ocean's depth creates equates to the intense and even life threatening mental illness Caden is experiencing. It's all coming together now. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

Finished earlier tonight and I loved it.

I am not sure what to say here except that once I worked through the parts that were confusing (why the ship, was it a hospital, etc.) and I realized how Shusterman was using the ship, ocean, captain, etc. it really came together for me. I thought this was brilliantly written.

At the end of the book Shusterman explains that (view spoiler)[the book was based in part on many of his son's experiences with schizophrenia, making it even more interesting. Just knowing that made the book even more compelling for me. (hide spoiler)]

What a brilliant writer her is!

[Clementine]

Wow! You were on fire, Vicki! :P I'm hoping to finish this tonight or tomorrow. Can't wait to click on your spoilers! LOL

[Vicki]

I couldn't put it down when I wasn't eating or talking with my husband or whatever. I hope you love it too!

[Clementine]

I'm enjoying this one too! It helps that it's accurate. LOL It's just that I have been too busy over the weekend to read it in one sitting.

[Clementine]

I finished chapter 52 and I'm close to tears. I can literally see where this is going. Oh my god. My heart.

[Clementine]

Chapter 56: (view spoiler)[The way Calliope describes what she sees seems to hint towards delusions or hallucinations. I'm suddenly wondering is everyone aboard this ship is a metaphor for a symptom Caden's experiencing. (hide spoiler)]

[Vicki]

I feel you!!! I cried too. :(

[Clementine]

Chapter 78:(view spoiler)[I haven't commented on it until now, but I love that he's using the second person. It makes everything more powerful and this is an important story to be told. (hide spoiler)]