Beta Reader Group discussion
Beta reader venting
You'd think with today's spell checkers this wouldn't be an issue. You turn spell checking on, you watch for its complaints, you click 'Add to dictionary' for names and such. End of problem.Know, if I only knew why there was a 'k' in front of 'new' when I meant the opposite of 'old'. I think it must have been my cat.
What do you read, Robin?
Robin wrote: "I apologize in advance, but I MUST vent and get this out. I'm sure other beta readers/authors will agree, I'm sure others will disagree. But that's neither here nor there.Authors: PLEASE, for the..."
It really shouldn't be an issue. Look for the squiggly red line, fix it. Then read back through your work so you can catch the correctly spelled, yet still incorrect words.
I mostly beta read for newer independent romance authors. A few best selling ones, as well. Though one of my regular authors writes thrillers. Though I will read anything, so long as it keeps my interest.
I'm an ESL writer and I've had to beta-read other indies (usually a fair swap) - but was sometimes appalled by how their English was worse than mine. So I hear you, Robin. My first drafts are not perfect, and you might find some strange grammar every now and then, but I try to make them as clean as I can... Also, some published indies still had those omophones spelled wrong (like "principal" and "principle" - for me they're two very distinct words, but it's true that in English they sound the same)...
Be strong, we're not all that choppy! :) Maybe you could ask for a sample before taking on a new author?
Barbara, ESL?English as a Second Language?
Martin wrote: "Barbara, ESL?English as a Second Language?"
yep! :) Mother tongue: Italian
Barbara wrote: "I'm an ESL writer and I've had to beta-read other indies (usually a fair swap) - but was sometimes appalled by how their English was worse than mine. So I hear you, Robin. My first drafts are not p..."I come across odd grammar and incorrect homophones quite often, even with the best selling authors I read for. It happens, I like to think it's an honest mistake, but sometimes I wonder...
I already won't take new authors on blindly. I like to chat with them, preferably on Skpye, before I agree to read for them. I like to get a feel for what they're looking for from a beta, and to let them know how I operate as a beta. What I will and won't do, timelines etc. I will most definitely be adding a no-first drafts clause in there from now on!
And I know what you mean, as well! I have one author who is an ESL writer as well. Her writing is so proper and almost TOO correct at times! Trying to help her loosen up a bit for her book was a challenge at times! English really is difficult language to master, particularly "American" English with all the crazy slang.
OMG. Yes. It's one thing when I get paid to do it (hey, if you're paying me, I'll fix anything you want me to). I'm also ok with getting a draft if all the person wants is for me to say whether the story is worth polishing. But if I'm reading someone's stuff FOR FREE, I don't want a rough draft they haven't bothered to spell check. I don't have time for that.
OMG! I gently mention to these people they have lots of typos and they tell me "Oh, I'll fix them all at the end..."I tell these people who sent me three chapters with a hundred typos to fix them now before you have a thousand typos and it's overwhelming. But nobody listens.
I often get: "Oh, my writing program doesn't have a spell checker..."
What? What word processor in the universe doesn't have a spell checker?
I refuse to correct them any longer.
A Beta copy is just a Beta copy. I don't expect it to be perfect. But what I can't understand are published books where in the acknoledgements the authors thank their proofreaders for their excellent work - with uncountable typos and wrong grammar.
Ed wrote: "OMG! I gently mention to these people they have lots of typos and they tell me "Oh, I'll fix them all at the end..."I tell these people who sent me three chapters with a hundred typos to fix them..."
YES!!! I actually just did that the other day. It sort of promoted my venting rant! Less than 30 pages in and I had made 79 comments in the margins, and idk how many in-line corrections. MOST of those being correcting spelling. Had to message the author and back out, at least until she gets it cleaned up.
And yes, if any author ever told me "I don't have spell checker." I would likely up and quit on the spot. EVERYTHING has spell checker these days. Even our phones. It's not a good excuse, it's pure laziness.
Barbara wrote: "A Beta copy is just a Beta copy. I don't expect it to be perfect. But what I can't understand are published books where in the acknoledgements the authors thank their proofreaders for their excell..."
I agree! I've been known to contact authors when I spot that. One published a book with so many mistakes that I had to DNF it. But her acknowledgements list TWENTY SEVEN individually named beta readers/editors/proof readers. I couldn't let it sit.
And I don't expect my beta copies to be perfect, but I do expect a bit of effort to have been put into self editing. I may expect too much from my authors, according to some, but I'm not here to do all the heavy lifting for them. I'm here to merely dust things off and occasionally rearrange a few things.
I guess I can comment on this one from the author and beta perspective since I just finished my own novel and have beta read in the past. I definitely try to go over my novel before submitting it to any betas, but I know I still have tons of mistakes on there. But I also expect a beta to give me more than just 'This is a great book' or 'This book sucks...' I want to see the edits and in-depth comments because it's the only way that my writing can get better.
As a previous Beta I understand your frustrations. I had one that was so bad I had to constantly make comments, spelling corrections, re-write sentences....I was basically a free editor. It makes you realize why some people have said 'enough!' and started charging for it. Although, I wouldn't pay for a beta reader lol.
As for the 'no spell check', I didn't even know those still existed haha. I use Scrivener, and a lot of times it doesn't catch spelling issues, so I'll switch it over to Word for edits.
Oh! And an author's vent! I honestly do not mind an honest opinion for my book. If you hate a scene, let me know. If you think a scene is unnecessary, let me know. And if my intimate scenes suck and need spicing up, let me know. But I absolutely hate overly rude betas. I just had a beta that was so bad... I wrote a PNR. Now everyone knows there are certain things that can be expected from a shifter PNR. Alpha males, hierarchies, etc. And she attacked all of it as though I was a horrible author and sexist...hmm.... If I could share what she said to me I think some people would laugh lol. And I would have taken it to heart if any of my other betas said the same thing, but this was SO out there!
Heather wrote: "I guess I can comment on this one from the author and beta perspective since I just finished my own novel and have beta read in the past. I definitely try to go over my novel before submitting it ..."
I completely agree Heather! A beta reader isn't worth jack squat if all they do is say "this book was good/bad" Elaborations are needed. Otherwise your beta is just a regular reader.
I personally comment quite a bit when beta reading. Both issues I am seeing/having and random thoughts that pop into my head while reading. Even my emotional outbursts! I literally JUST commented on my current beta project: "What a fucking BITCH!" In regards to something one of the characters said! Haha!
Heather wrote: "Oh! And an author's vent! I honestly do not mind an honest opinion for my book. If you hate a scene, let me know. If you think a scene is unnecessary, let me know. And if my intimate scenes suck an..."I'm with you there as well. There's no need to be rude when beta reading. Though, I've been known to get snippy when I continually find the same mistake over and over and over and over. When I start seeing my comments get like that I'll usually say something like "this is the umpteenth time you've used their/they're/there wrong, so this is my last comment. I trust you will move forward and fix the future mistakes from here on out."
But seriously? She attacked everything? Shit, if you don't like PNR then don't freaking beta it!
Robin, OMG! I love when betas get attached to books like that. It really makes for the best comments. I think that you deserve being snippy when someone makes the same repetitive mistake. In fact, I'm critiquing a book right now and it's driving me crazy. There's never any variety. Every sentence begins with he/she/her/him. I'm losing my mind.
Yeah EVERYTHING. She said my characters are stupid...literally stupid (as in having no brains). Mind you she only made it to my second chapter. One of my characters makes a comment like "Why don't you use your little Alpha powers to make her change back?" And she commented: Oh man well that's stupid! Mind as well say 'hey let's all get together and rape her while we're at it...' 0.0 I was like WHAT?!?!?! hahahaha
When I beta something and the repetitive mistakes are making me crazy I send it back and just say: Fix this, and then I will continue.Most of my Betas end a few chapters in with me saying: Fix these things, basically re-write the whole thing, and then send it back. :P Maybe that's not what an author wants to hear but I just can't concentrate when I see the same mistake over and over.
Jessica wrote: "When I beta something and the repetitive mistakes are making me crazy I send it back and just say: Fix this, and then I will continue.Most of my Betas end a few chapters in with me saying: Fix th..."
Hahaha sometimes that is what a book (and the author of it) needs though!
An author should have pride in their work. Sending something unreadable to a beta doesn't show any pride, and I'm betting that the final work has major problems as well. What a lot of new authors don't understand is the beta's role. It's not a substitute for an editor.As to some other comments here, I received a report on a book from a beta that upset me so much that I couldn't think straight for two days. In the end, I bit my tongue and I won't use her anymore.
I usually try to find as many beta readers as possible. If I can get 12-18 who will give me honest feedback and engage in a dialogue to help me fix the issues they find, the finished product is sooooooo much better. God bless beta readers.
I am a very new author with my first book Moving On which was out in May it is the first in the Moving series and i had 3 beta readers help me with.As a new author I do really try to make it a prefect as I can before I send it of to anyone, but when I read the same thing so much I know that there will be mistakes and I think that is what I am looking for in a beta reader to pick up the things that I have missed.
I am always thankful to a beta reader because they have taken time out to read and give feedback. So thank you to all beta reader.
I do agree with everyone that people should at least try to edit before they give it to someone to read, because your not showing your best work or showing something that you don't want anyone to see.
B.R. wrote: "If I can get 12-18 who will..."How the hell do you do that? I'd KILL to get 12-18 honest beta readers. And my PDFs are at least publication quality regarding typos and grammaros.
And to the few who've read for me, I LOVE YOU! (Especially you, Gretchen, though you make me think so hard and revise so much. Acacia is so smart!)
Beta readers: if you like erotic romance and happy (mostly) endings: MartinRinehart at gmail dot com.
Martin wrote: "B.R. wrote: "If I can get 12-18 who will..."How the hell do you do that? I'd KILL to get 12-18 honest beta readers...."
Hahhahaa I would like to know the same thing! I've gotten 3-4 that were really good, one of them had to back out because of personal issues (which broke my heart because she was amazing), and about 2-3 that just send me 'oh this is good...' -_______-
Heather, don't go steeling my readers! One of mine stopped because of "health issues" and I've not heard from her since. I'm worried about her. (She was far enough along so that I know this wasn't a euphemism for not really liking my work. Dawn? You OK?)
Hey, all you tentative readers! I just signed up the lady who rang up my order in the liquor store. I'm desperate for readers! If you're here on GR, you're miles ahead of the pack. Let us know!
Heather: you do reciprocal beta reads? You like erotic romance? MartinRinehart at gmail dot com.
I can hardly believe it's so difficult when I see all the posts from potential beta readers seeking authors.My problem: nearly all the authors seem to write paranormal or erotic romance. That's not really my favorite but I think this week I could help someone in this genre and the cooperation will continue for a while.
I would never write only "That's nice" or "that's crap". And I don't mind proofreading as well.
The first thing my husband said to me was "maybe she didn't like your book and told you that to spare your feelings." Thanks husband haha. But she said she liked it and couldn't wait for me to publish, so I think she was honest. I'm already working on my CP's book at the moment and a little overwhelmed with school and my book blog haha. It depends on the erotic romance too. I've read some that were.....interesting lol.
You bashful lurkers: if you like erotic romance (lots of sex!) I'm MartinRinehart at gmail dot com.If you like something else, everyone here wants to hear from you. Don't be bashful. We want honest opinions from folks who might buy our books. To all of us, you're gold. Speak up! If you're broke and only here because you can't afford to buy new novels, speak up! We need you! A freebie (it costs us nothing) in return for one intelligent how-to-make-it-better thought is a huge win for us. A thousand thanks!
So my concern as a beta reader- (and yes I also have seen tons of bad grammar, bad spelling, wrong words used (half instead of have), sentences that have no conjunction but are somehow abnormally combined, no "?" at the end of a question, etc)is how much do they really want to hear from me?
I mean I try to be honest as a reader and tell them parts that seem out of synch, unnecessary, purple prose, etc. I try to give suggestions to "liven up" a part that may be bland. Things like that. I don't try to change someone's tone or voice, because every writer has their own voice (thankfully- as the world would be boring if everyone told a story the same way).
But do you worry about hurting people's feelings?
That is what worries me the most. I want to be helpful, and to be helpful I have to be honest about what I think works and doesn't work. But do you think people just want to hear "great story" and not a real beta-read?
I am beta-reading for a person now who has an interesting story but there are some very unrealistic parts to it (it is a fantasy and I am not talking about the fantasy elements, I am talking about motivations and actions of the characters). There are some aspects to the descriptions of things- several sentences that are a list of descriptions of a character for no seeming reason other than just to describe someone (and extremely dry and difficult to read these descriptions because all action stops during this paragraph as we describe a person), using words such as "majestic room" and "beautiful scenery" (what I call purple prose type of descriptions- words so generic as to render them bland), etc
I am a few chapters in and have tons of comments and suggestions in the margins and am starting to feel badly about that - I have actually stopped reading it, and am trying to decide if I should continue.
Opinions? Will she want to hear what I have to say or is it too much?
Yes, I'm always concerned about hurting the author by giving an honest opinion that includes a certain amound of critique. I try to stay kind and friendly, to mention the positive parts, to encourage for improvement. My (yet small) experience is that they are very thankful. The first time I was sure I'd never hear again from her - but three days later she sent me her already published book asking me to have a look at it because she thought it would need some changes.I guess she won't like what you have to say but will still consider it.
Gina wrote: "So my concern as a beta reader- (and yes I also have seen tons of bad grammar, bad spelling, wrong words used (half instead of have), sentences that have no conjunction but are somehow abnormally c..."I also have those same issues as a beta reader. It's MUCH harder for me to read through books that I don't enjoy. I'll note what I see an unrealistic or illogical, note grammar issues and then at a certain point (maybe 30 pages in) ask the author if he or she wishes me to continue reading. I do continue if asked (one person did ask me, so I kept criticizing the book). It's much harder emotionally for me to be honest - I try to be kind, but I also want to be honest (otherwise what's the point of beta reading). I just envision these authors having friends and relatives skimming through their book (if they even read it) and assuring them it's great and I don't want to do that. It's JUST my opinion - they are free to ignore it (and there are bestsellers I think are drek - like Fifty Shades of Grey), so what is my opinion worth? I do point out what specific text I like or try to pinpoint specific issues rather than just saying I don't like the book as that's too vague to be helpful.
I'm also not a writer so I never ask how many hours/years it took for this poor author to create this tome that I don't like because I feel bad for the author, but I have to be honest (or I'll just stop beta reading). It would help also if authors told me if this was his/her first book as then tend to be a little kinder.
I feel if an author doesn't want an honest opinion from a stranger with no skin in the game, then he or she shouldn't be asking for a volunteer beta reader (just stick to friends and relatives and publish).
Gina wrote: "So my concern as a beta reader- (and yes I also have seen tons of bad grammar, bad spelling, wrong words used (half instead of have), sentences that have no conjunction but are somehow abnormally c..."My other thought is maybe Goodreads could let beta readers rank themselves on how tough they are (and Gina and I could both be a "3" or something for pretty tough). Those authors who are worried about negative feedback can then avoid all the "3" reviewers and go for "1" or "2". I did note in my bio for beta reading that I tend to stop reading a lot of free Kindle books and list my favorite authors and what I like/don't like in reading in the hopes that authors would try to match up with my reading interests/testiness(?) level!
Martin wrote: "B.R. wrote: "If I can get 12-18 who will..."How the hell do you do that? I'd KILL to get 12-18 honest beta readers. And my PDFs are at least publication quality regarding typos and grammaros.
An..."
I've built up a list of readers over time. I've published 7 books, and I haven't had that many betas for all of them. Some are friends (who happen to be technical writers/editors), I belong to a critique group, I find people on this GR group, and I trade betas with other authors.
Different people offer different perspectives, and the quality of feedback is uneven from person to person, but it gives me a good cross section.
Reading the comments as to how tough to be with authors:It depends. Some people just want a pat on the back and will argue with you about anything you find. As long as the beta is polite and constructive, I'll take just about anything they wish to dish out. I don't always agree with them, and it does set up some interesting dialogue when different people say, "I loved that part," and the other says, "I hate that part, cut it out."
The two beta comments I will never forget were: "It's like wading through molasses. I think you need to condense this section by about 6,000 words." and the other was, "This thing is a hot mess," followed by a five-page in-depth beta report. Both of those books were far better for the feedback. If I had listened to everything they said, the books probably would be even better.
Gina, Barbara, et al:I don't like the word "tough" but you have to be honest. Beta reads are supposed to help the author improve the book. That means fixing what's broken.
I like Linda's idea of ratings for beta readers! Never thought of that! I am a writer also, and I much appreciate getting more detail from beta readers- it's very helpful, whether I make all the suggested changes or not. It really makes me think about if I was able to correctly communicate what I thought I was writing.I appreciate all the responses. I am trying my best to be kind, but at times feel it is hard to know how someone will take what I say regardless of how I say it. Really, I guess if you want to be a writer, you need to be able to handle criticism, whether you agree with it or not.
I also liked the idea of going to a certain point in the manuscript and sending them your comments and asking if they want more. I pondered that, but was unsure if that was acceptable. It's good to know that people do that- I may do that with this one. Thanks!
Melanie YES! I just gained a Critique Partner and her MS is so hard to read.....
Gina wrote: "So my concern as a beta reader- (and yes I also have seen tons of bad grammar, bad spelling, wrong words used (half instead of have), sentences that have no conjunction but are somehow abnormally c..."As a beta reader I feel it's my responsibility to give an honest report of how the book felt to me--as a reader. My dad used to tell me I was such a beautiful writer that I could write anything I wanted. He never gave specific praise, it was all general. Instead of reassuring me, it made me feel more insecure. So I remember that as I beta read.Specific comments are what is needed. If a plot line isn't working or a character doesn't come across as credible, why not? What doesn't work for me plot-wise, and what about that one character do I find incredible? I tell the truth, but I'm not going to harm someone's dignity in the process. I've beta read some excellent stories, and I've beta read some pretty dismal ones. But even in the dismal ones I can find some redeeming quality. I look at it as walking beside a writer on this journey they're on. They need me to warn them of dangers and pot holes, and they also need some encouragement. Flattery isn't going to help them, and neither is impatience. I try to approach each beta read as I would hope someone would approach one of my own novels.
Deb- that's what I think as well- I want this sort of critique of my writing, so that is what I give. I always tell people- I really DO want to know if this dress makes my butt look fat! Please! ;)
Ha ha, you've got it! That's exactly what I want too, even if the honesty makes me cringe. Someone flattering me with pretty sounding words isn't going to help my writing one little bit.
Deb wrote: "Ha ha, you've got it! That's exactly what I want too, even if the honesty makes me cringe. Someone flattering me with pretty sounding words isn't going to help my writing one little bit."I also wish Goodreads would limit the beta readers to strictly volunteer because I see so many readers who say "Oh, that sounds fascinating and I love (whatever "niche" the author writes in" and then "Here's my pricing schedule." It gives me, at times, a false sense of how many others have already responded (and, so at times, I don't bother), but then if I look a little deeper I see that most are those who want to get paid.
Yes, Linda. I've seen that too. I wish they had a "group" for paid beta-readers and then one for only non-paid ones. That way writers could post in the group they want.
Gina wrote: "Yes, Linda. I've seen that too. I wish they had a "group" for paid beta-readers and then one for only non-paid ones. That way writers could post in the group they want."I tell you, Gina, it's like we're twin daughters from different mothers! :)
:) love it! Maybe we should friend each other. Request is on its way :)
Gina wrote: "Yes, Linda. I've seen that too. I wish they had a "group" for paid beta-readers and then one for only non-paid ones. That way writers could post in the group they want."Perhaps the mods of this group could contain the "professional" beta readers to a specific forum.
At the risk of being a bit off topic, Gretchen has beta read for me and her honest, insightful opinions have been invaluable. You're lucky if you can get her, authors.
Beta readers are supposed to be first draft people. They are they to help with the plot holes and continuity. Why edit when you may need to revise the whole thing? It makes no sense. And if the author does self-edit then if you write, you know that an author still misses so much. That's why there are proofreaders and editors. Beta readers are not supposed to worry about grammar, but can correct if they like. I don't know what kind of manuscripts anyone has been receiving, but worrying about grammar, to me isn't the job of a beta reader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_re...
B.R. wrote: "Perhaps the mods of this group could contain the "professional" beta readers to a specific forum."on another GR group the moderator made a post about paid services... Apparently posts of a commercial nature - i.e. those advertising paid services - are not allowed under Goodreads terms of use. If only all the groups followed that...
I'll soon post my beta-reader request, I'm not giving up yet! :) I did find great betas in this group (thanks, Lissa!), but I never have enough...
Hi Gretchen. Would you beta read for me. I have a completed m/s 87k words. I have rewritten it two or three times and it has been 'parked' for six months so I could see how I felt about it. I have self-published several books mainly on Kindle. I have a website (www.guyhallowes.com)you can contact me directly on Guy@Guyhallowes.com
Abby wrote: "Beta readers are supposed to be first draft people. They are they to help with the plot holes and continuity. Why edit when you may need to revise the whole thing? It makes no sense. And if the aut..."Abby- I completely agree with you. To a point. Yes, beta readers shouldn't be concerned with grammar issues. I will tend to skip them unless I notice a consistent pattern of errors. However, an author really needs to take the time for basic self editing. If a MS is riddled with SO MANY spelling and grammar issues that a beta can't even understand what they are reading, then what's the point? We do realize authors will miss some of their mistakes, and that is perfectly fine. But when the basic mistakes (many which can be fixed with a simple use of spell check or grammar check) take away from the plot then my time is being wasted as a beta reader.
Linda wrote: "Deb wrote: "Ha ha, you've got it! That's exactly what I want too, even if the honesty makes me cringe. Someone flattering me with pretty sounding words isn't going to help my writing one little bit..."Ugh. That's ridiculous to me. I personally don't think any beta reader should be paid. At least not ones you'd find here. I am by no means a professional, I read, I give my thoughts. Can I point issues out better than the average reader? Of course. But I'm still just giving my opinions. I consider it more community service. I hate seeing badly edited/proofed books so I contribute to fixing that problem the best I can.
I have had authors offer to pay me, and I decline every time. I usually just say "If you really feel the need to pay me, know I will never turn down autographed books or coffee sent as a thank you gift." But money? No thanks. You've already allowed me to read your book for free before everyone else.
Authors: PLEASE, for the love of God, self edit your work BEFORE you send it off to a beta reader!!! I am sick and tired of receiving first drafts! (Though there are a few select authors I consistently work with that I allow to send me first drafts) I am not your proofreader, I am not your editor. I do NOT want to spend my time looking over something that you haven't even taken the time to spell check. It's rude and quite frankly it's lazy. Why would I want to read and comment on something when it appears that YOU as the AUTHTOR haven't even bothered to go read back through yourself?
Seriously, people. It's not that difficult to do! Don't you want to present the best work you can? Even unrefined diamonds can be dusted off before being sent for polishing.
Thank you for letting me vent. I feel better now.