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Standards and gatekeepers
message 51:
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Iffix
(last edited Jun 20, 2015 05:28PM)
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Jun 20, 2015 05:26PM
Less books in the market means any one of us has a better chance. (I'd compete for readers with any one of you, but as stated, I have little desire to compete with the 12-year-old whose mom decided to publish his homework. And for those unaware, we've had two moms request publishing help for their kids' homework assignments since I arrived in April.)
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The questions that you're posing open up a huge can of other questions.
Have you given up on shopping because some retailers out there refuse to adhere to quality standards? I took my son to a fast food chain the other day -- I won't name it -- and with his hot dog, he received a toy. It was, quite frankly, junk. Cheap plastic. To me: Junk. But he LOVED it. It's still in the car and he wants it any time we go anywhere.
When you start giving people control over "standards" and "gatekeeping" in an industry, you give those people control over what gets published and what doesn't. Then the system inevitably corrupts because NO ONE is impartial.
So let's take that scenario with my son and adjust it slightly. I'm a book gatekeeper. This book comes through my email and I think "Oooooh, yeah, sorry. Doesn't live up to our standards." And I refuse to allow it to be published. My son just missed out on a book that he would have LOVED because I made a decision based on my opinion alone. Ridiculous.
And consider the implications for art and artists.
How dare we, mere individuals, try to put standards on a form of art. Shame on those of you who frown on so called "crap." That IS NOT what this group is about and I'm quite sick and tired of hearing about it.
Don't like the indie book you're reading? Return it. If you got it for free and "wasted" 15 minutes and can't find a damn thing to take from it, that's what, 5 commercials worth of your attention span? Deal with it.
Grow up.
So this is about crony capitalism? Controlling the market so you have a better chance? If you think you're in competition with a 12 year old's homework, that says more about your writing than it does the indie market. I for one am not in competition with any other author at all.Turning this into some kind of competition is all in your head bro.
More power to that 12 year old and his mother. I wish them all the luck in the world.
Reading a 10% sample and crowd source reviews sort the wheat from the chaff. Fewer and fewer people really care about the publisher names anymore.
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And it's NOT ALL coming from Indie authors. Why would someone give up on Indie books just because an occasional Indie book is not up to their standards? Like Christina said, do people give up eating pizza just because one pizzeria isn't up to their standards?
Indie authors that are worried about readers abandoning all Indie work because of dissatisfaction with a few would do better to continue to improve their own work and promote and support Indie authors that are up to their personal standards. Worrying about the work of authors you find sub-standard and wishing to have some kind of standards set up against them is not productive. It only feeds into the unproven notion that all Indie authors are somehow inferior to traditional ones.
Interesting take on what I actually said, Charles. The truth is, the writing industry IS competitive. Anyhow, I tend to agree with Anne when she said "This thread is giving me a headache." Good luck all of you with this debate.
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I have read some Indie work I wasn't fond of. Know what? I moved on and continued looking for good works. I found you, Christina, Ann... lots of good Indie authors out there.
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Grow up."
Amen, Ann. Amen.
Not even sure why anyone would join this group if they have such a distaste for Indie Authors. There's plenty of other places in Goodreads where this kind of bellyaching is the norm.
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But... again... who decides?
I personally don't think anyone is taking food out of my mouth when they sell a book. This all sounds like category error. It's not like one person buys one book per lifetime. It's more about being noticed on an individual level than beating the guy next to you in sales.
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Well, it can be, yes. I compete with myself, personally. I can't control the works of others and would never wish them to go away by some set of "standards", so all I can do is continue to improve my craft.
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Right on. My sales have never been where I want them to be. Never. So, I am working to improve my craft. Studying the stuff that does sell to see why it sells. Looking for ways to improve and build on what I have. The sales are increasing, slowly. My fan base is growing. Slow, but it's growing. I think the best thing we can do is focus on our own work (just like our third grade teachers said) and see how far we can take this.
The next best thing to do is focus on the Indie authors we like. Buy their work. Give them good reviews. Show support.
Indie writing does, indeed, have a poor reputation. These are steps that can be done to change that.
I want to clear up a lot of what is being said at me or about my comments. Look, I firmly believe in directing positive attention to Indie Authors, all of us. Yes, I would like this to be my source of bacon one day. And I wish I didn't have to view it as a competition. But in all sincerity, if I have to decide on the next book I'm reading, whether old favorite author with a new book (traditionally published, admittedly) or relative unknown Indie author without a review to his name, I don't think I'm alone in saying its a no-brainer. Sadly, we have the cards stacked against us from the start. I don't plan to perpetuate a stereotype about other Indies, but that stereotype is out there. It means, essentially, having to swim against the tide. And from where I stand, raising the quality bar (even if strictly doing all we can to proofread our books before they enter the market) helps ALL of us. So, what I'm suggesting is, not necessarily even external forces holding our works to a standard, but our willingness as authors to hold our own works to a standard we can be proud of. Proper steps like collecting a faithful set of beta readers, building up our own base of writing knowledge with free advice that fills the net, etc. And as for that 12-year-old, I wish him a long successful career as a writer, and not one that his mother ruins by dragging down his name when he's 12. (I actually think a 12-year-old with a good editor's eye stands a very decent chance of telling an incredible story. But I can tell you from my own life's journey when I look back on those first real full length stories I wrote when I was that 12-year-old, I would have been eaten alive by this market and given up.) So I've said my piece passively, and I will try to step away from this thread before it drags me down. I wish, for everyone's peace and sanity, that we all do the same.
Dwayne wrote: "Charles wrote: "I personally don't think anyone is taking food out of my mouth when they sell a book."Right on. My sales have never been where I want them to be. Never. So, I am working to improv..."
That was an awesome comment! Well stated.
Chances are that favorite old author's new book is just like the last 30 they put out, so give me something new and fresh.
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The reason why I encourage this group to refrain from that type of language is because it's not beneficial to anyone. Telling someone politely and with respect "Look, I think your book needs a little more editing before you consider publishing it" is a lot different than "This sucks. Someone needs to tell you before a reviewer tells you."
Positive encouragement here folks. The world has enough negativity in it without us hurling at one another within a support group.
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I can definitely get behind that. Set your own standards as high as you want the average Indie book to be, then go above it. Maybe if you write a brilliant Indie book, you just might inspire others to do the same and reach for your standards.
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I find it ironic finding an indie author that doesn't like to read other indie authors. It's like, I hope I make it while I choose to ignore or find someone that might be a new talent.
How can you expect others to take an interest in you if you don't take an interest in them.
Not to say every book deserves praise, but I never would have grown as an author without people offering feedback.
That being said, quit thinking of writing as a sprint. Lord of the Rings didn't take off until JRR died. There are TONS of stories like this just because a book hasn't hit the right eyes. Now back to the vacation.
@Dwayne & Charles: Agreed! (Problem solved?)
Adding to what Ann said (brilliantly, I might add), this isn't a matter of banning a word, rather discouraging a disparaging mindset. There are plenty of books I don't like. In my opinion, Tolkien was "crap." That doesn't mean it was bad, just that I don't have an appreciation for that particular style. I choose to simply move on as others have said. Now, on the subject of competition, I'm very sorry, but my opinion on that matter is that you are only shooting yourself in the foot if you view your contemporaries as competition. I see other authors, especially those in my genre, as allies, as people who I am willing to read and say, "Hey, if you liked my book, you'll like this one too." I even started a hashtag to pair up indie books that might be hard to label. But I have to say, I'm going to be a lot less inclined to share my audience with folks who see me as the enemy.
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How can you expect others to take an interest in you if you don't take an interest in them."
To each his own, I guess, but I'm with you on this Riley. Part of the reason I'm seeing an increase in sales, I should have mentioned, is taking an interest in other Indie authors and then they take an interest in my work. And vice versa.
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Aren't we, already? I know you put out good product. I would guess you have high standards for yourself.
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Same here. Charles has given me ideas. You and other mods have been very supportive of me when I run ideas by you. I named your burger joint, you encouraged Very White Jesus... wait... that may not be a good thing.
@Riley: I never suggested I wouldn't read another Indie author's work either. (I have the same feeling about any new author I'm reading for the first time. It's my general concensus. I have started reading far more books in my life than I actually finished.) I've been working with a number of Indie authors since I joined this group and I plan to continue to do so. But it does make sense from another perspective, which again you don't know about my life, and I don't pretend to know anything about yours. I am that starving artist you hear so much about. (Maybe you are too.) So I read books I can pick up from a library and not a bookstore. I let the government pay for my reading material. (How dare I! Scandalous!) And, as far as e-books go, I don't read much off of a screen.
As a writer, if I'm looking at a screen, I'd better be putting words on it. And since we find markedly few indie authors in the library, I can't pretend this is my fault. But someday, as indie authors continue to make a dent in this industry, there will be more indies in libraries, and I will read their works.
P.S. I shall never again offer to play D.A. in any thread. It only leads to trouble. It is so much easier to be a part of the crowd with the pitchforks. Let's burn down the gates and throw caution to the wind! Arrgh! (Pirate? Angry mob? I told you this thread was wearing on my sanity. I don't even know who I am anymore.)
Dwayne wrote: "Same here. Charles has given me ideas. You and other mods have been very supportive of me when I run ideas by you. I named your burger joint, you encouraged Very White Jesus... wait... that may not be a good thing."I never said you should actually listen to my ideas! ;)
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I hear what you're saying, and I apologize for reading more into it than is there. I may be a bit biased, since I've opened myself up to new authors that aren't normally read, and have found a lot of talent and brilliant stories. I used to have the same reservations you do, but I've gotten past them as I've actually read other's works, and helped others become better at this whole publishing process. And I don't have pitchforks, I reserve the tar and feathers for those who chose to bash and smash instead of making reasoned arguments for their opinion(As this is all conjecture in the end, and as Dwayne as stated, to each their own.) I apologize if I came across as not caring about your view.
As for the ebook vs a real book debate, may it be one that never dies, since that means I'll have to continue putting out works in both mediums!
And @Christina (my most recent offense) I wish to extend my humble apologies. I don't think competing makes anyone my enemy. I have had plenty of healthy competition with my best friends. If I didn't feel it was necessary to help one another, I wouldn't promote this idea so firmly. So understand that for me, finding a competitive edge so that others know my product is out there and hopefully doing my part to make certain that Indie Authors as a whole are looked at in a more favorable light whenever my books are read are two aspects that go hand in hand in my book. With deepest respect.
Riley wrote: "And I don't have pitchforks, I reserve the tar and feathers for those who chose to bash and smash instead of making reasoned arguments for their opinion(As this is all conjecture in the end, and as Dwayne as stated, to each their own.) I apologize if I came across as not caring about your view."And I didn't think you were aiming a pitchfork at me, sir. (At least I never felt the pointed end.) But you have to admit, as we're looking back on this most exceptional debate, there have been some excellent pitchfork moments. (By the way, I plan to look back on this thread next week, and if it'd be okay, I plan to laugh it off and remember this is not the sort of topic to bring up or discuss at length EVER AGAIN.) We authors are a passionate bunch. That passion, when used for the right cause, can move mountains. May it be so, in our every pursuit as writers in the future.
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Iffix wrote: "But in all sincerity, if I have to decide on the next book I'm reading, whether old favorite author with a new book (traditionally published, admittedly) or relative unknown Indie author without a review to his name, I don't think I'm alone in saying its a no-brainer. Sadly, we have the cards stacked against us from the start...."Maybe you but there are very few trad published authors I would choose over an indie these days. Even Jim Butcher, an author I adore, I didn't finish the series (even though I have all the books in my library waiting to be read). As soon as I discovered indies I pretty much forgot about the trad pubs. The only ones I may still look at are the newer ones such as Rick Yancey and Allen Zadoff because they are so different from the usual trad pub. To me they are closer to indies.
Charles wrote: "Chances are that favorite old author's new book is just like the last 30 they put out, so give me something new and fresh."
Exactly!
Iffix wrote: "And @Christina (my most recent offense) I wish to extend my humble apologies. I don't think competing makes anyone my enemy. I have had plenty of healthy competition with my best friends. If I didn..."Likewise. Though I have to hand it to you if you can keep your competition both friendly and healthy. I cannot, therefore it's usually best if I stay away from anything competitive.
@G.G. I am inspired to continue swimming through the pool of Indies searching for a good one. My main issue is that I wish I could learn to turn my internal editor's eye off in the search for a good story. If I don't spot those errors and let them slide, I worry I may, in fact, weaken my own grip on the English language. (I gave a negative review recently about a book in my target audience that really did quite well but simply for a few hackneyed expressions.)
I read to improve my own abilities as a writer. So, though I'm not proud of it, I do merit the best seller. Because though he has an editor turn his book to perfection, I am responsible for getting my own book to that state of perfection. I'm not a perfectionist about most things, but as a storyteller, I am a perfectionist. Because this early on, I can't afford not to be.
For example, you've seen how, this week, I've fallen to pieces because my descriptions weren't up to par with what my readers have expected.
Every time I read, just as every time I sit in a movie theater, I strive for improvement upon the story. I wish I felt self-confident enough to just be me. Someday, I will be. And someday, G.G., I hope to actually read a book for the sake of enjoyment. And, that day, G.G., I will contact you and ask you for the best Indies out there, because you seem to have the same taste in stories that I do, and you'd give me a very solid lead.
@Christina; Thank you. I wish you the best in your writing endeavors.
@Ann: I hope to one day be as supportive of other authors as you are of this group. I truly admire that. And thank you for your efforts to keep this group peaceful.
At a previous place of employment that I enjoyed the experience of experiencing, we sold literature of a risque nature.We sold other stuff too. Some of it wasn't very good. Some of it was HILARIOUS. The other stuff and the literature both.
Also I'm durnk.
The point I'm terribly attempting to make is that ssss seeps through the cracks no matter how many stop valves you put on the process.
Charles wrote: "Also I'm durnk."Have I ever mentioned that late night weekend Goodreads is sometimes the best Goodreads?
Watev u don't no drurnk me. Durnk me is ffffff up.
Iffix wrote: "@G.G. If I don't spot those errors and let them slide, I worry I may, in fact, weaken my own grip on the English language..."It's doubtful it could weaken your grasp of the English language. I don't think one can become blind to typos and mistakes. It's a good eye opener though. :P
For example, I have spotted some obvious ones in a trad pub series I loved by Anton Strout. Funny thing is, my hubby read the books a few years after me and spotted them too (such as naming the enemy by the name of the girlfriend, for example). Did it lessen our enjoyment of the series? Not at all.
So yeah, if I can spot them in trad pubs, I'm bound to spot them in Indies too, in some works maybe a little bit more than in others, but over all, it has rarely been enough to ruin the stories.
Once I read a book with multiple typos, and I mean a lot more than it should have been. Later, I learned that the author was blind. Yet, the story itself was exceptional. She had a special attention to details I had rarely seen elsewhere. By that, I don't mean descriptions, but rather apparently insignificant hints here and there that became important towards the end. You know, the ones that give you those 'Ah!' moments. I couldn't give it more than a 3 stars with a good conscience because I know not everyone will close their eyes on typos, but to ignore such a book for that sole reason would have been such a shame.
Iffix wrote: "For example, you've seen how, this week, I've fallen to pieces because my descriptions weren't up to par with what my readers have expected."
Yes, I remember that post. I sincerely hope you'll build self-confidence. You can't fall apart because not all the readers love your style. (Heck, I hate Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy, and it's still a best seller. :P )
And when that day comes, I'll be glad to discuss books with you so we can find you the best possible match. ;)
People seem to look for issues with indie work, and as a result the issues they look for are amplified.
Charles wrote: "People seem to look for issues with indie work, and as a result the issues they look for are amplified."Very true. And then others sometimes pile on to "join the party". Which means we have to learn to cultivate faith in our work and be especially careful who we give credence to. Just because some people out there like to sound off about things does not mean they are always worth listening to.
Mod
I feel much the same, Ann. I've told you that one of the reasons I joined this group was due to the negative attitudes in other groups toward Indie authors. Daily posts about our work all being crap, daily posts against us offering our work for free, daily posts about us publishing "too much" and clogging up the market.
I suppose as the group continues to grow we'll continue to see this kind of attitude creep in. I just flat out don't get it. A lot of why I am Indie published is so I can have the freedom to publish what I want. To start expecting some universal standards or gatekeepers defeats one of the huge purposes of Indie published. If authors want someone controlling their standards and if they want gatekeepers telling them what is allowed and what is not, they should stick with traditional publishers.
But... But I want my cookie first. (Pouts.)But you already got your cookie, and you ate it.
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Some have tried, including yours truly. Maybe I'm just not grown up enough to listen to. I don't feel I get enough cookies, but you know what? That's on me, not other authors. I don't market enough and I don't right much with mainstream appeal. I realize this.
I think we should accentuate the positives of indie work.We offer value, especially on ebooks. Cutting out the publisher and agent saves the reader costs.
Book full of "A's" and kids homework will be quickly marked by readers, who can usually get a refund.
There are many great books priced from free to $2.99.
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We offer value, especially on ebooks. Cutting out the publisher and agent saves the reader costs.
Book full of "A's" and kids homework w..."
Excellent points, Anthony. The last is one of the main reasons I've switched to mostly buying works by Indie authors, even before joining this group, even before being an Indie author myself. Why spend $25 on the latest Stephen King novel (or whatever his stuff goes for today) when you can get 25 99 cent Indie books, many better than King.
And that's another plus for Indie authors. Lots of us are not mainstream. You won't find our kind of work in bookstores.
Hey. This is a renaissance!
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Picasso used to pay his bar tabs with signed sketches on napkins.
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Michelangelo. I can't imagine anyone with a back ache like he must have had that wouldn't cuss their head off about it.
