As requested - Penhallow thread!

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Ok let the discussion begin!

[Jackie]

it's been awhile since I've read it but I recall not liking it AT ALL on the first read but liking it more and more over time. the characters are interesting, even though there are too many of them. the plot twist where

(view spoiler)[the oldest son turns out to be illegitimate (hide spoiler)]

surprised me.

Penhollow is not a 3D character - he's just mean, through and through - but his family is interesting.

maybe I will re-read now. :-D

[Critterbee❇]

All right, new thread, I am diving into Penhallow for the first time.

First impressions to follow when obtained! :D

[Karlyne]

Critterbee wrote: "All right, new thread, I am diving into Penhallow for the first time.

First impressions to follow when obtained! :D"

Haha, Critterbee! I just let you know over on the Cousin Kate thread that this one is up...

[Karlyne]

I think I'll start this one in a day or two, too!

[Critterbee❇]

Thanks again for the Penhallow thread! I finished it last night and had to sleep on it to fully absorb and form my thoughts. It really is like a strong blow to your brain.

At first, there just seemed to be so many characters, I did not know if I would be able to differentiate between characters. But, they all turned out to be really well defined, unpleasant and (sadly) believable.

Ahhhhh, should I avoid spoilers? I would hate to ruin it for anyone. How much detail can I discuss?

[Mary]

I read Penhallow for the first time last week and would love to comment on what bothered me the most as soon as someone says we can discuss it all out.

[Jackie]

do it!

[Critterbee❇]

!!!!

I do believe I have finally read a GH book that has not one character in it that I liked! It is quite shocking! Usually I fall in love with at least 2 or 3 of the characters. I actually disliked, or did not like, everyone in Penhallow.

Now I am not so hasty as to say that I did not enjoy Penhallow, which was very surprising because I was uncomfortable almost the entire time that I was reading the book.

I wanted to learn more about each person, and to see what was going to happen to everyone.

[Critterbee❇]

So far every GH book that I have read has had some happiness at the end. Even the mysteries usually end with clouds clearing, and love matches, to some degree.

Being used to the varying degrees of happy ever afters, Penhallow was a first, ending with almost everyone unhappy. Well, except perhaps Clay and Loveday?

Not taking into account those emotionally stunted family members who, to me, seem devoid of feeling. Is that too harsh? Is that lack of emotion just them defensively distancing themselves from a horrid situation?

[MaryC]

Critterbee, couldn't you like even Loveday? She reminded me a bit of a similarly situated character in Margaret Kennedy's The Ladies of Lyndon.

[Critterbee❇]

Everyone was pretty negative about her, excepting Mrs. Penhallow at first. Did that influence my feelings towards her? hmmm maybe.

She did have some good traits - she seemed to really care for Bart. Possibly her behavior could be seen as doing everything out of her love for Bart. And she was a strong woman. And practical.

But, no, I did not really like her. She seemed very calculating, and I felt she wanted Bart AND the farm, not just Bart by himself. In my romantic mind, I would rather that she wanted Bart most of all, with or without the farm. I might just be too harsh.

[Karlyne]

I generally only love books with characters I can at least identify with or semi-like, and, I agree, Critterbee, that there weren't any of those in Penhallow! They were all so completely self-absorbed or selfish or distant that there wasn't much to like about them. (I won't even bring up the whiners or the hypocrites.) But, somehow, it's still a fascinating book; I think it's because the story is more about what happens when evil, posing as good, is unleashed on a closed set of people than about the characters themselves. It almost seems as though fate rushes through the book!

[Barbara]

Critterbee wrote: "!!!!

I do believe I have finally read a GH book that has not one character in it that I liked! It is quite shocking! Usually I fall in love with at least 2 or 3 of the characters. I actually disli..."

I do think this is a good summary ! I agree wholeheartedly - uncomfortable, liked nobody , positively hated some, but compelling reading nonetheless.

[Tina]

This is the one and only GH book I have not gone back and re read.
I read it first twenty or thirty years ago and found it disturbing and unsettling. There seemed to be joy or lightness any where.
However after reading some posts on here I downloaded a e version which I will read at some point.
I seem to remember an unsatisfactory ending and I do like things to turn out well in the end

[Barbara]

Just re-reading it on Kindle and I am struck by how there are subtle hints and clues given , right up to the deed . I don't believe I saw them the first time. But I'm not always good on clues anyway!

[Karlyne]

Barbara wrote: "Just re-reading it on Kindle and I am struck by how there are subtle hints and clues given , right up to the deed . I don't believe I saw them the first time. But I'm not always good on clues anyway!"

It's subtle and hit-you-over-the head, both, at the same time.

[Tina]

Ok so now I am intrigued and will go back and read it

[Critterbee❇]

I think, knowing the tone of the book, I would be willing to revisit it and see how it reads the second time.

[Karlyne]

It's such an odd book, especially if you're a rabid Heyer fan. The first time I read it, I was perpexed, but just because I did adore Heyer, I gave it another chance. And then I really was wowed. But it's still an unusual book!

[Barbara]

Karlyne wrote: "It's such an odd book, especially if you're a rabid Heyer fan. The first time I read it, I was perpexed, but just because I did adore Heyer, I gave it another chance. And then I really was wowed. B..."

Yes indeed , very odd and interesting. Of course almost everyone in it is detestable or pathetic in some way , though I have a lot of time for Faith , a classic abused wife , not that NL would have acknowledged such a term nor, more to the point, had much real sympathy.

Loveday too, though scheming is basically making the best of what life hands her and bravely too.

Another interesting aspect I think, is the gendered aspect of several characters ( I mean this in the fuller sociological sense, not as synonymous with 'sex of' as seems to have become the usage nowadays)
Aubrey, Eugene and perhaps Clay too ( what an odd NL name) are all attributed with various levels of androgyny don't you think? None of them is gay of course , but the older two at least display , deliberately, a studied effete ,effeminate air . I love the way this enrages the alpha male types btw .Bart , Ray, Conrad. No mistaking those for girly names!

And Charmian is frankly portrayed as lesbian, complete with femme partner .

Loving it all the second time around !

[Karlyne]

Barbara wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "It's such an odd book, especially if you're a rabid Heyer fan. The first time I read it, I was perpexed, but just because I did adore Heyer, I gave it another chance. And then I rea..."

I had completely forgotten about Charmian! I've always thought that her name was deliberate, too, since she had so little charm.

[MaryC]

I remembered Charmian's "poor little me" friend from my first reading, but I also remembered that she has the guts (and the resources) to stand up to the old man and that she also has a small spark of kindness, manifested in getting up at night when Faith loses it and in urging her half brother to pull himself together or buck up--her mannish way of offering sympathy. When Faith winds up in a mental hospital, Charmian is probably the one who will (roughly) take the boy under her wing and see to it that he keeps his head above water. Sorry I can't remember his name!

[Barbara]

Mary said of Faith and Penhallow's son , " Sorry I can't remember his name;

It's Clay, I always thought it a very un-Heyer ish-name. Though, come to think of it , the boy is very malleable .

Leila is Charmian's ( so true - strong, not so charming ) friend . 'A woman as like a pink marshmallow as it is possible to be ' or something that . Charmian, however, says she is a very interesting woman with advanced views!

A quick( and unscientific) look at the meaning of some Penhallow names is interesting .
Adam - red earth ( plus first man of course)
Bartholomew - son of farmer
Conrad -Bold counsel
Eugene - well born
Aubrey - elf king
James ( Jimmy ) -supplanter
Raymond - advice/protector/counsel
Faith - trust/belief etc
Vivian - alive/life
Rachel - ewe ( but was the favourite wife of Jacob and mother of nations etc)
Delia - many suggestion , but mostly merely 'from Delos'

Maybe I'm drawing too long a bow.....?

[Karlyne]

Barbara wrote: "Mary said of Faith and Penhallow's son , " Sorry I can't remember his name;

It's Clay, I always thought it a very un-Heyer ish-name. Though, come to think of it , the boy is very malleable .

Leil..."

Hmmmm! They do seem to fit... I think I need to put this on my re-read list and keep these meanings in mind.

[Jackie]

the names' meanings are very interesting

[Barbara]

Are we still talking about Penhallow, and if so, are spoilers OK. ? Only I want to talk about the last scenes involving Ray.

[MaryC]

I'm eager to read your thoughts on those scenes! (Have you read Nicholas Nickleby?)

[Barbara]

I shall go ahead Mary and do the 'spoiler in brackets' thing . I'll send the code to you in a pm , in case you forgot how to do it

And yes, I have read Nicholas Nickleby but would have to be go back and read it again, it's too long ago, maybe even in my serious teens!

I think the scenes where Ray (view spoiler)[ is told so maliciously and sadistically of his true parentage, and his subsequent actions are unbearably poignant . Though I disapproved of his irrational hatred of his real mother , poor crushed Delia, I did find it sadly realistic. And find the scenes of him putting his affairs in order, riding out see his beloved Demon colt and the final act on the Dozmary pool bank are amongst the saddest I have ever read. And then of course , the classic tragic irony of his secret actually NOT having been discovered by Jimmy the Bastard. Not that he( Ray)could have lived with it anyway .... >/spoiler> (hide spoiler)]

[MaryC]

The passage in Nicholas Nickleby that I'm thinking of is the one in which a young man whose name I can't remember is on his way to a duel with Sir Mulberry Hawke.

[Critterbee❇]

Barbara wrote: "I shall go ahead Mary and do the 'spoiler in brackets' thing ."

That part really broke my heart. So much malice in Penhallow. And so much glee in causing pain. That part will stay with me forever.

[Barbara]

Yes, indeed. Penhallow is rather powerful writing I think.
The character of Faith for instance and her action and lack of understanding of it's consequences I find perfectly believable, given the rather masterful way we have been shown her inner crumbling under his onslaughts.