To Kill A Mockingbird by Harper Lee (Group Classics Read June/July '15)

[Robin P]

I think he felt his kids and his work were most important, his own social and emotional life wasn't primary.

[Alice]

Re: Aunt Alexandra wanting to get rid of Cal: Another reason I could think of is that Alexandra is just jealous that the children love Cal more than her!

[Alice]

Greg wrote: "Well put Alice! That was exactly how I saw it too! :)

Reina does bring up a interesting point though .. I wonder why Atticus didn't remarry.

What does everyone think? Did he just love his dead w..."

I don't recall any obvious hints in the book suggesting why Atticus didn't remarry. I would guess that maybe he hasn't met anyone suitable yet, or maybe he's still in love with his dead wife.

[Alice]

Robin wrote: "I think he felt his kids and his work were most important, his own social and emotional life wasn't primary."

I think that's true too Robin!

[Greg]

Robin wrote: "I think he felt his kids and his work were most important, his own social and emotional life wasn't primary."

That makes a lot of sense Robin - I hadn't thought of that. Maybe you're a mom yourself? :)

I was originally thinking along the lines of what Alice said, but your explanation could well be so! He definitely seems the sort of person who would put other people's needs ahead of his own. He has a strong moral fiber, just another thing in him to admire.

[Evelyn]

Alice, I agree with you about Calpurnia and the Aunt, that was my feeling as well.

I think that Atticus didn't remarry because he didn't want to. He was set in his ways, his house was run competently by Calpurnia, he worked a lot, and he seemed to be fulfilled with his life. I am sure there would have been no shortage of willing applicants, but he just didn't seem interested in the slightest.

[Greg]

Evelyn wrote: "I think that Atticus didn't remarry because he didn't want to. He was set in his ways, his house was run competen..."

That's possible Evelyn. Given his depiction, it would be awfully hard to imagine him going on dates at this point in his life. He doesn't seem interested .. whether for the kids' sake or because he's already fulfilled in his life or because he still loves his late wife, I don't really know.

[Greg]

It felt a little bit sentimental in chapter 15 when (view spoiler)[Scout unknowingly talks down the mob (hide spoiler)], not impossible because life is strange sometimes .. I'd certainly like to believe that would happen, but thinking of various historical events, I fear that (view spoiler)[compassion isn't always a mob's strong suit (hide spoiler)].

I'll admit though that I did cry in chapter 22 when (view spoiler)[all the black families deliver food to Atticus' house the morning after the verdict (hide spoiler)]. That did ring true. I love the way that part unfolded, with (view spoiler)[Cal bringing out the one dish for breakfast, being questioned, and then the discovery of the rest of the food in the kitchen. What a grace filled moment, the giving and receiving of that simple gift in gratitude. (hide spoiler)]

[Free]

"Tom was a black-velvet Negro, not shiny, but soft black velvet. The whites of his eyes shone in his face, and when he spoke we saw flashes of his teeth. If he had been whole, he would have been a fine specimen of a Man."

I just read this and wow a little too much to be coming from a child.

[Free]

Greg wrote: "Well put Alice! That was exactly how I saw it too! :)

Reina does bring up a interesting point though .. I wonder why Atticus didn't remarry.

What does everyone think? Did he just love his dead w..."

Honestly maybe at first but I think as time went on there really was no need plus Cal filled the mother role for his children. If he were to marry it would have upset the routine of his life which I think most of the family enjoyed. I personally still think there was something between him and Cal.

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Hi Reina, I think this was supposed to be Scout's memoir, written after she was an adult. I thought a lot of the writing would have been over the head of a 9 or 10 year old.

[Greg]

Terry wrote: "Hi Reina, I think this was supposed to be Scout's memoir, written after she was an adult. I thought a lot of the writing would have been over the head of a 9 or 10 year old."

I agree Shirley - for instance, on the first page, Scout says "When enough years had gone by to enable us to look back on them, we sometimes discussed the events leading to his accident." That certainly sounds like a much older Scout looking back.

[Paulfozz]

The style reminds me a little of The Body (made into the film Stand By Me) by Stephen King; it might have been an influence on King. I just finished reading To Kill A Mockingbird a few minutes ago and it's definitely up with the very best books that I've read.

[Teri-K]

I'm really enjoying reading everyone's comments. :)

Since TKAM is written as Scout looking back on her childhood, I don't think it's completely reliable. We don't remember our childhoods exactly as they were, but as we perceived them and also as they were filtered by the intervening years. And I think Harper Lee was smart enough and a good enough writer to take that into consideration.

So descriptions of people are mixed with how she came to view them later. And some things aren't included because they didn't impact Scout directly. For instance, I think that's why we don't really know why Atticus didn't remarry. It wouldn't have occurred to Scout when she was small that he might have. At that point in her life her father isn't a real man with needs of his own, he's just "Atticus", the man who makes sure she's taken care of. In fact, this summer is really the beginning of her seeing people as individuals, apart from herself. IMO

To me Lee showed how well she remembered childhood that she left out some things grownups want to know, but included those little details that matter to kids that older people tend to not even notice.

Also - am I the only reader to wonder if Lee or someone she once knew dressed up like a ham for a pageant? That detail is so funny - and almost bizarre - that it feels to me like it must have really happened. Who would dream that up? :)

[Greg]

Teri-k wrote: "I think that's why we don't really know why Atticus didn't remarry. It wouldn't have occurred to Scout when she was small that he might have. At that point in her life her father isn't a real man with needs of his own, he's just "Atticus", the man who makes sure she's taken care of. In fact, this summer is really the beginning of her seeing people as individuals, apart from herself. IMO..."

Really excellent points Teri-K! The book is a great window on childhood, and the things a child would value & notice get the emphasis as you say.

Teri-k wrote: "Also - am I the only reader to wonder if Lee or someone she once knew dressed up like a ham for a pageant? That detail is so funny - and almost bizarre - that it feels to me like it must have really happened. Who would dream that up? :) ..."

No idea if Lee had pageant ham experience, but I did really laugh when (view spoiler)[Scout feel asleep in the ham costume and came out late (hide spoiler)]. :)

[Teri-K]

Greg wrote: "Teri-k wrote: "I think that's why we don't really know why Atticus didn't remarry. It wouldn't have occurred to Scout when she was small that he might have. At that point in her life her father isn..."

I remember when I first read this book, as a young girl, I didn't think the ham scene fit. It didn't make sense to me, after all the drama of the trial.

But this time around I thought it made perfect sense, because to Scout the pageant and her costume really were as important as the trial - again it's that child's perspective.

And it does add some very welcome humor, doesn't it? As well as give a reason to (view spoiler)[ "out" Boo. (hide spoiler)]

[Alice]

Teri-k wrote: "So descriptions of people are mixed with how she came to view them later. And some things aren't included because they didn't impact Scout directly."

Great observation, Teri-k!

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

I just wanted to add that I love reading all the member's observations on this book. Great combination of the quality of the book and the quality of discussion!

[Ron]

This is one of the best novels I've ever read, and it's my top pick for exemplary parenting in fiction! The movie is excellent, especially Scout, Atticus, Boo Radley, and the powerful Mayella - what a courtroom explosion!

I want to read Harper Lee's new release.

[Ron]

Greg wrote: "Well put Alice! That was exactly how I saw it too! :)

Reina does bring up a interesting point though .. I wonder why Atticus didn't remarry.

What does everyone think? Did he just love his dead w..."

[Ron]

good questions, Greg. From the film, more so than the novel, Atticus seems preoccupied, even before he takes on the Tom Robinson defense. I imagine, like many people, he gets caught up in his work, perhaps to bury his grief.

[Free]

Just finished reading Tkamb. Such a good book. I am planning on reading go set a watchman. I was just wondering who else is planning on reading it too?

[Greg]

Ron wrote: "it's my top pick for exemplary parenting in fiction!..."

I agree Ron!

[Greg]

Teri-k wrote: "I remember when I first read this book, as a young girl, I didn't think the ham scene fit. It didn't make sense to me, after all the drama of the trial. ..."

I had that feeling at first too Teri-k, as though the story meandered a bit after (view spoiler)[the conclusion of the trial and Robinson's death (hide spoiler)], though I did enjoy the pageant, and what you say is true. Not only was it significant to her as a child but she needed to do something to wrap things up in the (view spoiler)[Boo Radley (hide spoiler)] storyline.

I'm still about 20 pages from the end. I have been reading another book while I'm vacationing in Seattle since I'm away from my car .. and my audiobooks! When I get back, I'm sure I'll finish it that day! :)

[Greg]

Reina wrote: "Just finished reading Tkamb. Such a good book. I am planning on reading go set a watchman. I was just wondering who else is planning on reading it too?"

Not sure Reina .. I'm torn since the novel was so delayed. I hope the author really did polish it and put it in its final form while she was still independent and alert, though I have to admit .. I am quite curious about Go Set a Watchman after this readalong.

[Alice]

I don't know how everyone feels about the ending - I'm a bit troubled by it, the dishonesty involved.

[Greg]

Alice wrote: "I don't know how everyone feels about the ending - I'm a bit troubled by it, the dishonesty involved."

As I said below, I haven't quite finished yet, but I'll certainly respond when I do. I expect to finish it up on the way to work Tuesday morning

[Alice]

I look forward to hearing your views Greg!

[Deborah]

Hmmm...the Atticus not remarrying thing - very well put, Terri-k. Aside from anything, as it's from another person's viewpoint - a child, in retrospect, to boot - why would his reasons be mentioned? If it was not important to her, she would not think to mention it, just to satisfy we, the onlookers!

Not sure I'd call Atticus humble - but then, I don't really 'get' why people praise it as a quality -

......meek, deferential, respectful, submissive, self-effacing, unassertive, unpresuming.....


now, if we merely use the definition of modest, maybe. He's got an ego, for sure - star performer in the courtroom! But he seems able to supersede his ego in the interests of his children, something not common in my observation.

This has been a many-times re-read for me - first read it when I was too young to really appreciate it - around 8-10. However, I made up for that over multiple re-reads!

[Free]

I honestly understood the cover up and dishonesty and I think it showed how much Scout grew from the start to the book, to be able to understand and accept it so quickly. I do wish she would have end it a few days after Jem woke up and they had talked about it. It really bothers me that we never got Jem's point of view.

[Alice]

Reina, what bothers me is actually (view spoiler)[Atticus's acquiescence to the sheriff's idea. He is a lawyer and he should know better than agree to a blatant obstruction to justice. Scout is too young to understand the legal principles involved. I empathize with Boo, but a cover-up can't be right. (hide spoiler)]

[Deborah]

Hmmm....being/doing right isn't always the 'right' thing to do/pursue. Sometimes the truth does more harm than good; Atticus understands this, despite his lawyerly ethical perspective.

To me, this is the MOST important lesson he teaches Scout.

Obviously Atticus does know better - but also knows that nothing is black and white (if only some dastardly writer hadn't nabbed the term Shades of Grey - tut!)

[Greg]

No problem everyone (nothing was given away for me), but if you have the ability to add spoiler tags on your platform, please go back and edit your posts to add them if you can. Most of us that have been posting are either done reading or very close to being done, but others might start reading later since this group read technically goes on through the end of July! :)

Adding the spoiler tags is very easy: just type < spoiler> without the space after "<" at the beginning of any key plot points.

Then type < /spoiler> without the space after "<" at the end of any key plot points.

For example: In chapter 99, when < spoiler>Colonel Mustard killed Mrs Plum with the candlestick< /spoiler>, I was annoyed.

I know some people might have issues editing posts or viewing spoilers in the app; if it's not possible, no worries! But please use spoiler tags around major plot points where you can.

But great discussion everyone! :)

[Greg]

Deborah wrote: "Not sure I'd call Atticus humble - but then, I don't really 'get' why people praise it as a quality - .."

Deborah, for me I usually think of this definition of humble (the first in my dictionary):

"having or showing a modest estimate of one's own importance."

That I think is a very good thing! .. to realize that other people are equally important, valuable, and in some cases knowledgeable as oneself.

I see the words you list as synonyms (submissive, etc) in one of my dictionaries, but oddly, I really don't think of them as equivalent to what I think of as the word "humble."

[Teri-K]

I think "humble" is one of those words that's hard to pin down and can mean different things to different people. To me humble means you don't think you or your opinions matter more than other people. As Greg said above.

I value humility, especially in someone like Atticus, who is a strong person, good at his job and a leader, because without humility people like that become cruel, self-centered, and uncaring about others.

I have mixed feelings about the ending. For me I think it shows that life isn't always black-and-white and sometimes people have to compromise one thing to achieve a "greater good". In this case, protecting the weak and innocent. But, again, I'm not totally comfortable with that. (But real life is flawed and less than perfect and I'm not always comfortable with it either. lol)

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

Reina wrote: "Just finished reading Tkamb. Such a good book. I am planning on reading go set a watchman. I was just wondering who else is planning on reading it too?"

I plan on reading Go Set a Watchman
in July. I noticed there was some discussion whether it should have been published, given that the author is advanced in years and in an assisted living facility, I think. The debate was whether she really wished it to be published at all, or it was published without her knowing consent by a greedy agent.
Well, maybe it is just selfish of me - I want to know further about Scout and her family.

[Free]

Terry wrote: "Reina wrote: "Just finished reading Tkamb. Such a good book. I am planning on reading go set a watchman. I was just wondering who else is planning on reading it too?"

I plan on reading [book:Go Se..."

I totally agree. But I also heard they brought people in to make sure she understood what she was doing. I think that she finally realized how much Tkamb impacted readers and let go of whatever reservations she had about publishing the other book. It's a gift.

[Free]

Greg wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Not sure I'd call Atticus humble - but then, I don't really 'get' why people praise it as a quality - .."

Deborah, for me I usually think of this definition of humble (the first in..."

I agree!

[Alice]

Greg, sorry about forgetting the spoiler. Added now :)

[Alice]

I agree with Teri-k that nothing in life is black and white. But the message that one gets here is that (view spoiler)[one man (the sheriff) can arbitrarily decide what is right and what is wrong, which seems to override all that a legal system stands for. We are talking about the unnatural death of a man here. Trash though he was, Bob Ewell was still a human being. It is tragic that Boo accidentally killed him while protecting the kids. But that doesn't make it alright for the truth to be covered up. This is no lesson to teach kids, especially for someone as upright as Atticus. (hide spoiler)]

[Terry ~ Huntress of Erudition]

That's good to know, Reina.

[Teri-K]

Alice wrote: "I agree with Teri-k that nothing in life is black and white. But the message that one gets here is that [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I know what you mean. It does disturbs me, too. (view spoiler)[ If the problem with Tom's trial was that the jury ignored the law and went with their emotions, how does that make what the sheriff did right? Isn't it the same thing, only this time it's good people ignoring the law to protect someone so it's OK? (hide spoiler)] I think I understand her message, but I don't think I agree with it.

[Greg]

I agree with you Alice, but unfortunately if the choice was between (view spoiler)[submitting Boo to the same mob that unjustly killed Tom Robinson and concealing the truth, I would (at least in that era and in that place) probably do exactly what Atticus did.

I believe people are more important than the law, which is only an ideal, an abstraction. No abstraction will ever be more important to me than people. If I had faith in the justice system of the time, I'd behave quite differently, but it does seem clear that the justice system of the era described by To Kill a Mockingbird was hugely corrupt. Thank God I have never experienced corruption like that in my lifetime, but I have in my younger years had to deal with some corrupt authority figures. For better or worse, I had no trouble acting against people in authority that I believed in my heart were unkind and wrong, even if those people were invested with social or political authority.

Not an easy choice to be sure though because it's an act of arrogance to put oneself above the law. And I have no idea if what Atticus did was right. Atticus is far from clueless of this; I think that's why he really struggles with the decision.

It is a terrible lesson for his kids though, and I completely understand how you feel. Definitely a grey area as Teri-K says.

If Atticus had killed him and hidden the truth, that would be totally different. It would be a clear moral evil for him to avoid the consequences of his own actions, especially when he had a reasonable expectation of being treated fairly, but whether the expectation was fair or not, it would be evil nevertheless. On the other hand, to hide the truth of what Boo did to protect another person (a social pariah with almost no chance of being treated fairly), that's where the grey area comes in for me. (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Terry wrote: "That's good to know, Reina."

I agree! :)

[Alice]

Teri-k wrote: "Alice wrote: "I agree with Teri-k that nothing in life is black and white. But the message that one gets here is that [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I know what you mean. It does disturbs me, too. [spoi..."

Exactly, Teri-ki. (view spoiler)[In the Tom Robinson case, the legal process is still intact. Tom's case is well argued. Appeal could still go ahead. It is the jury who have to live with their inhumane decision. But in the Boo case, the legal system may as well be dead if the sheriff's word is final. What if next time Boo gets killed by Bob Ewell, and Bob wants the sheriff to say Boo fell on the knife? Also, how can Atticus tell his kids that it's alright for the sheriff to lie? (hide spoiler)]

[Alice]

Greg, please see spoiler in my message 95.

Also, I don't think (view spoiler)[the jury would treat Boo the way they treat Robinson. They are simply a racist bunch who are prejudiced against blacks. In my opinion, Boo would be quickly acquitted given the circumstances (his trying to protect the kids from harm). (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

Alice, you have some excellent points. You could well be right!

I (view spoiler)[don't have as much faith in the legal system of that era and place as you do though. Tom's appeal perhaps could have succeeded, but perhaps it might not have, regardless of the fact that Tom was so obviously not guilty.

Boo is an outcast too. Most of the town is prejudiced against him. I don't have a great deal of faith that Boo would be treated fairly by a jury of people so willing to disregard facts and evidence. Perhaps he's not black, but I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in their small minded hands!

I also don't think allowing the sheriff to free someone who is clearly innocent of wrongdoing is the same as carte blanche allowing the sheriff to do anything he wants for all time.

But Atticus is one who takes the high road, and I admire him for it. It does seem more consistent for him to put his faith in the justice system and do the best he could.

The book suggests that Boo's extreme reclusiveness would make the public nature of the trial unbearable to Boo, regardless of whether he was acquitted. It suggests that this is why Atticus reluctantly goes along with the sheriff's plan.

I'm unclear that Atticus would actually do this!

Your arguments are so good Alice that now I'm completely torn. I don't really know what I think for sure. (hide spoiler)]

[Alice]

Greg, your points are valid too. I do understand (view spoiler)[Atticus's dilemma - fighting between his compassion for Boo and his professional ethics. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. Still, endorsing a blatant lie would be hard to explain to a kid. (hide spoiler)]

[Greg]

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Atticus' behavior at the end (the action we have been talking about) is out of character. I'm having a hard time believing that the character of Atticus that Lee had developed over the past 300 pages would do what he did.

Whether he's right or wrong to do it, I'm still not sure, but I don't think Atticus would do it. He has too much moral rectitude.

I also totally agree with you the more I think about it that it's a (view spoiler)[horrible example for the children - the avoidance of responsibility for one's actions when it gets difficult, the not owning up to what was done. (hide spoiler)] I think you've kind of won me over in feeling like that action of Atticus' toward the end was a wrong note in the story.

Still a great book though!

[Teri-K]

Greg wrote: "The more I think about it, the more I feel that Atticus' behavior at the end (the action we have been talking about) is out of character. I'm having a hard time believing that the character of Atti..."

Greg, I agree with everything you said in message 97. And I don't really buy that Atticus would make the choice he made at the end. It doesn't seem creditable to me.

That's really what I meant when I said sometimes I don't like life, either. Is this a case where a man goes against what I expect and I'm left to just not like it? After all, people do contradictory things sometimes. Or is it a misstep by the author? Since HL shunned publicity and rarely talked about the book I don't think we know why she wrote the ending she did. So I'm left uncomfortable with it. Like some of you.

But I love the book so I kind of "forget" the ending in my own mind. Temporary, voluntary amnesia, I guess. :)