Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Discussion: T. S. Eliot's Poetry
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TWL I. The Burial of the Dead
April is the cruellest month, breedingLilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.
Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee
With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade,
And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten,
And drank coffee, and talked for an hour.
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm’ aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
And when we were children, staying at the arch-duke’s,
My cousin’s, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went.
In the mountains, there you feel free.
I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter.
Why is April cruel?
What things strike you about this section?
Chaucer was mentioned in one of the other threads and I’m thankful for that, because now I remember why the beginning of The Waste Land sounds so familiar.Prologue to the Canterbury Tales:
Whan that Aprille with his shoures sooteMy initial take is that Eliot simply takes Chaucer’s sweet and soothing atmosphere, puts it into a WWI context and it all becomes quite cruel.
The droghte of Marche hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Perhaps coincidence, but spring is the season with the heaviest incidence of suicide -- at least according to the studies I have seen. I don't know current theories of cause and effect, but have seen individual cases where fresh, new life seemed to contrast too heavily with the bleakness of depression. Winter had "matched" better.
Laurel wrote: "What things strike you about this section? "Mixing memory and desire" stands out.
Do you mean the whole movement or just the part you quoted?
Lily wrote: "I don't know current theories of cause and effect, but have seen individual cases where fresh, new life seemed to contrast too heavily with the bleakness of depression. Winter had "matched" better.."Just out of curiosity, I checked the DODs of a few celebrities. Van Gogh and Hemingway committed suicide in July, David Wallace Foster, Sept.
I would think that signs of fresh new life would be a source of hope and comfort for depressed souls, unless they believe themselves cut off from it, like the lonely souls during Christmas...
Laurel wrote: "Why is April cruel?What things strike you about this section? "
Rebirth is difficult, hard work, even cruel perhaps. It's easier to stay under the forgetful snow, where all is warm and quiet and we are satisfied with a few dried potatoes. But that's not the way it works. The rain comes and stirs our dull roots and the hard work of regeneration begins. But hold on tight, because the experience is frightening, like flying down the mountain on a sled -- frightening, but also liberating.
And then there's that last line, which I find very jarring. "I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter." Going south is like going back under the snow, where it's warm and lifeless.
Lily wrote: "Perhaps coincidence, but spring is the season with the heaviest incidence of suicide -- at least according to the studies I have seen. I don't know current theories of cause and effect, but have s..."That is interesting, Lily. Another thing I thought of is that in some northern areas the dead are not buried until spring, because the ground is too hard in winter.
Tommi wrote: "Chaucer was mentioned in one of the other threads and I’m thankful for that, because now I remember why the beginning of The Waste Land sounds so familiar.Prologue to the Canterbury Tales:Whan th..."
Alluding to Chaucer at the very beginning puts him right in the stream of great English literature, doesn't it?
Theresa wrote: "Laurel wrote: "What things strike you about this section? "Mixing memory and desire" stands out.
Do you mean the whole movement or just the part you quoted?"
Yes! A most evocative phrase! Maybe just stay with this first part for a while, and then I'll quote some more. I hope I can keep up with you!
Thomas wrote: " Going south is like going back under the snow, where it's warm and lifeless. ..."That is interesting. I don't fully understand what that line is about but to me it suggests he doesn't fully stay with the experience of the dark winter (or the dark night for that matter). He tries to escape it by going south. He takes refuge in his inner life.
The discussion of the cruelty of April reminds me of the line in Preludes: The morning comes to consciousness of faint stale smells of beer..." As with the dawn, the spring is not a romantic experience for Eliot. It is a bright, glaring revelation.
Laurel wrote: "
Does the title fit this movement?
"
I don't find "burial" --- unless perhaps Eliot's poem itself is somehow words said over the dead.
So many links to the dead:
Chaucer... Something approaching a dead language/ yet... also something that might be thought of as the birth of English (an "English," anyway, I can kinda-sorta read with some effort.)
According to the calendar... Easter usually falls in April... therefore... one might think of the crucifixion of Christ. Death/ and life.
Lilacs. Whitman, "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd," evoking Lincoln, who was shot April 14th.
When I think Whitman and Lincoln, I think of "O Captain, My Captain," which I find SUCH a sad poem.
mmm. So much death in the course of the Civil War... and yet... Lincoln spoke of the country "with a new birth of freedom"
The dried tubers... seemingly almost dead... but not.
In googling Lithuania, I found the quote interesting:
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm’ aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
Wiki says that Lithuania existed until 1795... and then was under the rule of Russia... BUT... "On February 16, 1918, Lithuania was re-established as a democratic state."
So that would have been a current event for Eliot... and has the death/ re-birth aspect, too.
The world of Marie's childhood... some of those countries no longer existed... dead? but... eight new countries formed following WWI: Yugoslavia
Poland
Greece
Romania
Finland
Latvia
Lithuania
Estonia
Anyway. Death... but life, too, it seems.
Does the title fit this movement?
"
I don't find "burial" --- unless perhaps Eliot's poem itself is somehow words said over the dead.
So many links to the dead:
Chaucer... Something approaching a dead language/ yet... also something that might be thought of as the birth of English (an "English," anyway, I can kinda-sorta read with some effort.)
According to the calendar... Easter usually falls in April... therefore... one might think of the crucifixion of Christ. Death/ and life.
Lilacs. Whitman, "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd," evoking Lincoln, who was shot April 14th.
When I think Whitman and Lincoln, I think of "O Captain, My Captain," which I find SUCH a sad poem.
mmm. So much death in the course of the Civil War... and yet... Lincoln spoke of the country "with a new birth of freedom"
The dried tubers... seemingly almost dead... but not.
In googling Lithuania, I found the quote interesting:
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm’ aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
Wiki says that Lithuania existed until 1795... and then was under the rule of Russia... BUT... "On February 16, 1918, Lithuania was re-established as a democratic state."
So that would have been a current event for Eliot... and has the death/ re-birth aspect, too.
The world of Marie's childhood... some of those countries no longer existed... dead? but... eight new countries formed following WWI: Yugoslavia
Poland
Greece
Romania
Finland
Latvia
Lithuania
Estonia
Anyway. Death... but life, too, it seems.
What are the roots that clutch, what branches growOut of this stony rubbish? Son of man,
You cannot say, or guess, for you know only
A heap of broken images, where the sun beats,
And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief,
And the dry stone no sound of water. Only
There is shadow under this red rock,
(Come in under the shadow of this red rock),
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Frisch weht der Wind
Der Heimat zu
Mein Irisch Kind,
Wo weilest du?
“You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
“They called me the hyacinth girl.”
—Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
Looking into the heart of light, the silence.
Oed’ und leer das Meer.
"A heap of broken images": like this poem? And what about that handful of dust?
"Frisch weht der Wind. . . ." This song is sung by the steersman at the very beginning of Wagner's "Tristram und Isolde," which is about one of the incidents in the Arthurian legends: love forbidden and thwarted. Here it is:
http://youtu.be/tUGVZE8XGE4
The last line quoted above is from Act 3 of the same opera.
What do you make of the hyacinth girl?
"And when we were children, staying at the arch-duke’s,My cousin’s, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went. ..."
Compare the above with the sleigh-driving scene in War and Peace (Bk. VII Chp. X)
Nicholas set off, following the first sleigh; behind him the others moved noisily, their runners squeaking. At first they drove at a steady trot along the narrow road. While they drove past the garden the shadows of the bare trees often fell across the road and hid the brilliant moonlight, but as soon as they were past the fence, the snowy plain bathed in moonlight and motionless spread out before them glittering like diamonds and dappled with bluish shadows.
Nemo wrote: ""And when we were children, staying at the arch-duke’s,My cousin’s, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went. ..."
Compare the above ..."
Was that during the wolf hunt?
Nicholas and the others were visiting an otherwise poor uncle and his children.I don't know what to make of the hyacinth girl.
The son of man knows only broken images. That is sad. A comment on the state of Christianity or the mortal nature of Jesus?
Theresa wrote: "The son of man knows only broken images. That is sad. A comment on the state of Christianity or the mortal nature of Jesus? "The Waste Land was published five years before Eliot converted from Unitarianism to Anglicanism in 1927. So it is possible that he believed the Unitarian doctrine that Jesus was a mortal man.
According to the site below:You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;-- An allusion to Hyacinthus, a lover of Apollo who was tragically killed.
https://britlitwiki.wikispaces.com/Wa...
Thomas wrote: "...And then there's that last line, which I find very jarring. "I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter." Going south is like going back under the snow, where it's warm and lifeless..."That whole second section is jarring. Roots coming out of the earth, clutching - dragging back down under the ground? Then the Son of Man is there (we know what happened to that guy).
The almost whimsical description of autonomous shadows deciding to accompany the shadow-thrower, then, boom, fear in a handful of dust. Then, just as abruptly, someone with an armload of fragrant Spring flowers.
Burial of the Dead: Dust-to-dust. Genesis 2.7.http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Gene...
"Dad was steady when, in accordance with Jewish tradition, he stepped forward to shovel dirt onto the casket. One by one, we followed. When my turn came, I bypassed the shovel. While burying Joe, I want to feel the dirt, maybe to drive home the finality of it all. As with Joe, so with Ann: I grabbed a handful of dirt with my right hand and released it into the grave.
"A few minutes later, as I gathered up my cell phone and walked back to the car, my thoughts returned to my mother. Suddenly, I thought of something that might give her comfort. 'Alan,' I said into the phone, 'tell Mom that when I threw the dirt on Ann's coffin, I did it with the hand that has her engagement ring on it. She was there, too.' Instead Alan put my mother on the line. 'I was wearing your ring when I threw the dirt onto Ann's coffin,' I repeated. 'I want you to know your hand touched the soil, too.'
"Two days later, my father called me in New Jersey to tell me that my mother wasn't doing well, but wanted to talk to me. When she came on the line, she was breathless, her words coming in short bursts. 'That was a wonderful thing you did for me, wearing the ring and then throwing the dirt,' she said. 'I appreciate that.' Our conversation wandered off..." pp211-12, Four Funerals and a Wedding , by Jill Smolowe.
Not as tightly written, but Smolowe's story touched me as a 21st century version of Tolstoy's "The Death of Ivan Ilych" -- death and grief up close.
Luiz wrote: "According to the site below:You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;-- An allusion to Hyacinthus, a lover of Apollo who was tragically killed.
https://britlitwiki.wikispaces.com/Wa......"
What a handy page, Luiz. Thanks!
Theresa wrote: "broken images = idols?"Wow! That fits.
Lily wrote: " Smolowe's story touched me as a 21st century version of Tolstoy's "The Death of Ivan Ilych" -- death and grief up close. .."I must read that.
When we spread my father's ashes (about 10 years ago) my mother was too distraught to attend so I insisted on narrating the event to her over a cell phone and passed the phone around to the others to give her a sense of being there. I looked a bit strange to people passing by but I think it worked. She asked me later if we used a cup or something to spread the ashes and I said no, we each took a handful and released the ashes over the ocean (some burried their handful in the sand). I don't think she approved of that but it seemed more real to me than a sanitized approach with gloves and cups.
Lily wrote: "Burial of the Dead: Dust-to-dust. Genesis 2.7.http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Gene...
"Dad was steady when, in accordance with Jewish tradition, he stepped forward to shovel dirt onto the c..."
Beautiful, Lily.
Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante,Had a bad cold, nevertheless
Is known to be the wisest woman in Europe,
With a wicked pack of cards. Here, said she,
Is your card, the drowned Phoenician Sailor,
(Those are pearls that were his eyes. Look!)
Here is Belladonna, the Lady of the Rocks,
The lady of situations.
Here is the man with three staves, and here the Wheel,
And here is the one-eyed merchant, and this card,
Which is blank, is something he carries on his back,
Which I am forbidden to see. I do not find
The Hanged Man. Fear death by water.
I see crowds of people, walking round in a ring.
Thank you. If you see dear Mrs. Equitone,
Tell her I bring the horoscope myself:
One must be so careful these days.
The hyacinth is a symbol of resurrection, but like the branches struggling in the stony rubbish the hyacinth girl is thwarted. Eliot's landscape seems to be a negative version of what Dante sees in Paradiso, Canto 33:
("She" in the first line is Beatrice.)
(view spoiler)
Rather than the epiphany that Dante has, Eliot's narrator is struck blind and speechless and knows nothing when he looks into the "heart of light."
Laurel wrote: "Madame Sosostris, famous clairvoyante,Had a bad cold, nevertheless
Is known to be the wisest woman in Europe,
With a wicked pack of cards. Here, said she,
Is your card, the drowned Phoenician Sail..."
She is doing some sort of tarot reading it seems. I don't recognize all the cards but the fact she doesn't see the hanged man is interesting. I associate the Hanged Man with waiting. The idea of waiting seems important to Eliot.
She discusses the wheel of fortune and what appears to be the three of wands. I don't recognize the others.
Because she doesn't see the Hanged Man, she advises him to "fear death by water". I wonder if death by water has anything to do with redemption and resurrection...Thomas wrote: "The hyacinth is a symbol of resurrection, but like the branches struggling in the stony rubbish the hyacinth girl is thwarted.
Eliot's landscape seems to be a negative version of what Dante sees ..."
Fascinating! Thanks.
"Belladonna is supposed to have been the plant that poisoned the troops of Marcus Antonius during the Parthian wars. Plutarch gives a graphic account of the strange effects that followed its use."
"Virgin of the Rocks" is a painting by Da Vinci. Not sure if that´s what he means by "Lady of the Rocks."
A text about The Hanged Man card:"The Hanged Man is one of the most mysterious cards in the tarot deck. It is simple, but complex. It attracts, but also disturbs. It contradicts itself in countless ways. The Hanged Man is unsettling because it symbolizes the action of paradox in our lives. A paradox is something that appears contradictory, and yet is true. The Hanged Man presents to us certain truths, but they are hidden in their opposites.
The main lesson of the Hanged Man is that we "control" by letting go - we "win" by surrendering. The figure on Card 12 has made the ultimate surrender - to die on the cross of his own travails - yet he shines with the glory of divine understanding. He has sacrificed himself, but he emerges the victor. The Hanged Man also tells us that we can "move forward" by standing still. By suspending time, we can have all the time in the world.
In readings, the Hanged Man reminds us that the best approach to a problem is not always the most obvious. When we most want to force our will on someone, that is when we should release. When we most want to have our own way, that is when we should sacrifice. When we most want to act, that is when we should wait. The irony is that by making these contradictory moves, we find what we are looking for."
Thomas wrote: " Eliot's narrator is struck blind and speechless and knows nothing when he looks into the "heart of light." ."It's also reminiscent of the scene in Paradise Lost where Satan met Eve for the first time. "Love at first sight"?
Such Pleasure took the Serpent to behold
This Flourie Plat, the sweet recess of Eve
Thus earlie, thus alone; her Heav’nly forme
Angelic, but more soft, and Feminine,
Her graceful Innocence, her every Aire
Of gesture or lest action overawd
His Malice, and with rapine sweet bereav’d
His fierceness of the fierce intent it brought:
That space the Evil one abstracted stood
From his own evil, and for the time remaind
Stupidly good, of enmitie disarm’d,
Luiz wrote: "A text about The Hanged Man card:"The Hanged Man is one of the most mysterious cards in the tarot deck. It is simple, but complex. It attracts, but also disturbs. It contradicts itself in countle..."
Looking now at the author's notes at the end of the poem he says:
I am not familiar with the exact constitution of the Tarot pack of cards, from which I have obviously departed to suit my own convenience. The Hanged Man, a member of the traditional pack, fits my purpose in two ways: because he is associated in my mind with the Hanged God of Frazer, and because I associate him with the hooded figure in the passage of the disciples to Emmaus in Part V. The Phoenician Sailor and the Merchant appear later; also the 'crowds of people', and Death by Water is executed in Part IV. The Man with Three Staves (an authentic member of the Tarot pack) I associate, quite arbitrarily, with the Fisher King himself.
Nevertheless, the text you quote re the Hanged Man is quite interesting to think about in relation to our upcoming reading of Four Quarters.
Theresa wrote: "Because she doesn't see the Hanged Man, she advises him to "fear death by water". I wonder if death by water has anything to do with redemption and resurrection...I think water is a symbol of life and redemption.
Why would the merchant carry a blanked car on his back? To show to the clairvoyante that he makes his own destiny? But then why would him forbidd her to see it?
The wisest woman in Europe has a blind spot
Nemo wrote: "I would think that signs of fresh new life would be a source of hope and comfort for depressed souls,"Life and hope only bring comfort if you can take their demands. If you just want to lie there and do nothing, April is cruel because it stirs things up.
Thomas wrote: "The hyacinth is a symbol of resurrection, but like the branches struggling in the stony rubbish the hyacinth girl is thwarted. Eliot's landscape seems to be a negative version of what Dante sees ..."
Beautiful, Thomas. And the Sybil again!
Theresa wrote: "Because she doesn't see the Hanged Man, she advises him to "fear death by water". I wonder if death by water has anything to do with redemption and resurrection...."This part always reminds me of Gonzalo's sizing up of the boatswain in the first scene of "The Tempest":
"I have great comfort from this fellow. Methinks he hath no drowning mark upon him, his complexion is perfect gallows. Stand fast, good Fate, to his hanging, make the rope of his destiny our cable, for our own doth little advantage. If he be not born to be hang’d, our case is miserable."
Gonzalo seems to be reading this man as if he were reading the Tarot cards.
Thomas wrote: "Laurel wrote: "Why is April cruel?What things strike you about this section? "
Rebirth is difficult, hard work, even cruel perhaps. It's easier to stay under the forgetful snow, where all is warm..."
Here are the first lines of Whitman's lilac poem:
"When lilacs last in the dooryard bloom’d,
And the great star early droop’d in the western sky in the night,
I mourn’d, and yet shall mourn with ever-returning spring.
Ever-returning spring, trinity sure to me you bring,
Lilac blooming perennial and drooping star in the west,
And thought of him I love."
The returning of the season brings back memories of a death.
Nemo wrote: "Thomas wrote: " Eliot's narrator is struck blind and speechless and knows nothing when he looks into the "heart of light." ."It's also reminiscent of the scene in Paradise Lost where Satan met Ev..."
Good, Nemo. How I love being reminded of these great poems!
Luiz wrote: "Why would the merchant carry a blanked car on his back? To show to the clairvoyante that he makes his own destiny? But then why would him forbidd her to see it?"According to Jessie Weston, the Syrian merchants spread the secrets of the Grail cult as they traveled with their goods. Is the card blank so that only the initiated can read it?
"The channel appears to have been three-fold. First, commercial, through the medium of Syrian merchants. As ardently religious as practically business-like, the Syrians introduced their native deities wherever they penetrated, "founding their chapels at the same time as their counting-houses."
—"From Ritual to Romance," ch. 12
Patrice wrote: Do you think that the Sybil wants to die because she knows the future?Thanks for that connection!
Laurel wrote: "What are the roots that clutch, what branches growOut of this stony rubbish? Son of man,
You cannot say, or guess, for you know only
A heap of broken images, where the sun beats,
And the dead tree..."
"the roots that clutch" must be some pre-christian god. God of spring/growth/ hyacinths?
Thomas wrote: "Rather than the epiphany that Dante has, Eliot's narrator is struck blind and speechless and knows nothing when he looks into the "heart of light." ..."
Eliot's narrator is not prepared or qualified to look int the "heart of light."
Laurel wrote: "This part always reminds me of Gonzalo's sizing up of the boatswain in the first scene of "The Tempest":..."Your reference to "The Tempest" reminds me of where I have seen the line about "pearls that were his eyes":
Act 1 Scene 2
ARIEL
(sings)
Full fathom five thy father lies.
Of his bones are coral made.
Those are pearls that were his eyes.
Nothing of him that doth fade,
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.
Sea-nymphs hourly ring his knell
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
T. S. Eliot: The Poems (other topics)Our Mutual Friend (other topics)
Our Mutual Friend (other topics)
Four Funerals and a Wedding: Resilience in a Time of Grief (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Martin Scofield (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Jill Smolowe (other topics)
http://www.sparknotes.com/poetry/elio...
Does the title fit this movement?
This video is quite well done. http://youtu.be/BSWzuls5Y6Y