Reading the Chunksters discussion
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OHB Week 1 - Chapters 1-16
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The Vicar's brand of Christianity is very much focused, it seems to me, on duty and obligation, not on love or compassion. Philip seems to pick this up in the beginning of Chapter 11: Philip got up and knelt down to say his prayers. It was a cold morning, and he shivered a little; but he had been taught by his uncle that his prayers were more acceptable to God if he said them in his nightshirt than if he waited till he was dressed. This did not surprise him, for he was beginning to realise that he was the creature of a God who appreciated the discomfort of his worshippers.
I was curious about this comment early in Chapter 13:He had the good memory which is more useful for scholastic achievements than mental power,
Yet he was totally unable to memorize any of the ten lines of the Collect when told to.
Your Chapter 9 comment may explain why he remembered the garden specifically from his prior visit.As for the Collect, I assumed some of the words were unfamiliar and beyond his ability to grasp. I would think there would be complex words in there but I don't know. This was just my assumption.
Great quotes, thanks.
Everyman wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I really dislike Mr. Carey but I think Mrs. Carey is just bewildered."It's easy to dislike Mr. Carey. I certainly did on my first read through when I was much closer to Philip's ag..."
I can justify Mr. Carey's interactions with Philip as lack of experience with children and it seems in at least some ways he did try. What made me truly dislike him is his selfishness (vacations alone in the name of money, contempt for anyone not like him, jealousy of what fortunes his brother had) and his contempt for people that don't see things exactly as he sees them. I'm also lose more respect for him when he blows Philip off when he asks a question about the Bible passage. He has had Philip for some time at this point and his lack of experience with children is no longer an excuse. This would be no different than if an adult parishioner had come with a similar question. Somehow I think he would have blown him off as well. I guess. Can easily sum up that I'm not a fan of Vicar William.
You mentioned earlier why there are so many orphans in literary fiction. I found myself wondering why clergyman and religious folk always seem to be portrayed as selfish and the antithesis of "religious".
Nicola wrote "I've been pondering the reasons for this - is Philip a heartless little so and so?, did he just not have any connection to them and so can't miss them? Does he feel pain but have a completely unique way of not expressing or thinking about it? At nine any 'normal' child should surely be devastated by the loss of both of his parents in such a short time but Philip remains totally unaffected, his thoughts and his manner betray no agitation at all. He cries over leaving his nurse, he cries over being unable to learn some book passages, he cries over being forced to display his crippled foot but he doesn't seem to give a damn about his mum and dad."I think Philips is "aged" wrong or perhaps he has been socially isolated and thus is immature. His responses are very typical of a child in the age range of 5-8. He is not worried about his mother because he is sure she will be fine. The last he saw her he was wrapped in her warm arms. He was isolated from her death and her funeral. There was nothing that made it real. And in reality, a child is able to carry on so to speak much better than an adult. As a pediatrician I've had the conversation with parents about how to help a young child deal with grief. Number 1, it is ok to have fun and be happy. It is also ok to allow a child to see you cry. My other observati9on is that Philip does what most children in foster care do..... try to please his MST immediate caregiver as best as they can and attach to anyone that is nice to them. And the tears over not learning the passage.... fear of abandonment, fear of being shamed. All normal childhood responses. I don't think Philip is cold. I think he is a survivor
Stephanie wrote: "... fear of abandonment, fear of being shamed. All normal childhood responses. I don't think Philip is cold. I think he is a survivor..."I agree. Good assessment.
I'm only partway through this first section, so I'm not reading the rest of the comments yet, but my first thoughts are: how tragic for this young boy who is clearly very loved! And his uncle, though probably well-meaning, is such a snob. He asks his brother for funds for his church, then gets all uppity when money is sent, because it's too much! And if he hadn't sent as much, don't you know the same man would have fussed because here is this brother with all this wealth, not willing to part with any of it to the church? Looking down on people for having money is just as judgmental as looking down on people for NOT having it.Okay, end rant.
Also, an egg beaten up into a glass of sherry? Is that really a thing? I can't think of anything more likely to make me vomit.... what a waste of a perfectly good glass of sherry!
Stephanie wrote: " I found myself wondering why clergyman and religious folk always seem to be portrayed as selfish and the antithesis of "religious". ."There are a few good ones. Such as Father Brown in Chesterton's stories, or Mr. Harding in The Warden.
But in general, virtue is much less interesting than vice. Not only in literature, but in life (what dominates our newspapers; what is it that people most often gossip about?)
Everyman wrote: "Stephanie wrote: " I found myself wondering why clergyman and religious folk always seem to be portrayed as selfish and the antithesis of "religious". ."There are a few good ones. Such as Father..."
Have to totally disagree about Father Brown, although I suppose he wasn't 'real' the way SM makes his characters real. I'm afraid I haven't read The Warden but I have seen decent religious men (and women) portrayed in literature. I will say that they frequently aren't. Perhaps they are an 'easy target' in that they are quick way to demonstrate that people in positions requiring supposed superior moral judgement are just, if not more likely to be arrogant, pompous, hypocritical and self serving.
I was thinking about a few off the top of my head...The Barsetshire clergy (mostly)
Vicar of Wakefield
Mr. Fairbrother from Middlemarch
Edward Ferrars of Sense & Sensibility
Mr. Brock of Armadale (at least he seems nice, I'm only halfway through)
Friar Tuck
Artemis (although he was iffy)
Brother Cadfael
William Baskerville
And lots who just don't have a large role (as with all the village vicars in Agatha Christie).
Because, as Everyman points out, vice makes for interesting reading.
I'm trying not to read comments yet, because I'm not caught up... But as you see, falling miserably.
Renee wrote: "I was thinking about a few off the top of my head...The Barsetshire clergy (mostly)
Vicar of Wakefield
Mr. Fairbrother from Middlemarch
Edward Ferrars of Sense & Sensibility
Mr. Brock of Armadal..."
Are these meant to be example of 'good' or 'bad' religious men Renee? They seem a little mixed to me.
I think we can probably discount the vicars in Agatha Christies works, because, although I bow to no one in my love for her work, I can't call her literature in the sense of trying to portray real life. She writes murder mysteries and doesn't often veer off course to deep philosophical ponderings and challenges to the reader.
1) The list is predominantly 'good' decent sorts or at the very least on the side of 'good' even if flawed. I think there are plenty out there, they just aren't as juicy. 2) Plus, many authors (such as Agatha Christie) people their worlds with the ubiquitously good, such as local clergy. Also, postal workers, doctors, merchants, solicitors, teachers, etc. mostly 'good' although generally undeveloped. Still that's droves of religious good guys.
3) However, there is something about the betrayal of one's duty that makes a splash. A poisoning doctors, an unjust lawyer, a tyrannical teacher are fictionally delicious. How much more so for the clergy? Their betrayal of the expected good of their position is somehow deeper because it touches on the hand of Heaven.
A fictionally lousy father might create daughters who are distrustful of men, sons who have difficulty with authority. But a lousy father who happens to be religious... You just know those kids are gonna be twisted and will probably think of themselves beyond the hope of heaven.
It's such a great device that I'm kinda surprised that there aren't MORE dirty clergy in literature. As it stands, I suspect that the fictional percentages are about equal to the baddies of other professions. The character with twisted religious principals probably just stand out more.
Ok, having finally finished this first section and reading everyone's thoughts, these are my summary thoughts:I was not as affected by the passing of Phillip's mother, because it felt almost more like he was simply too young, and had probably been raised so separately from her, to really understand. I have many memories of childhood, but the older I get the more unclear they become, but I know that I did not always act the way outwardly that to society would most demonstrate my internal emotions. We all respond so differently in times of tragedy, especially in times when we simply don't understand. For his character, I think I will just have to withhold judgment until I get to see him as an adult.
Mr. Carey is, I think, a classic example of someone who WANTS to be good and do everything the correct way, but often has a very skewed idea of what "correct" really is. We don't really know how he was raised, but we can see by how quickly Phillip picks up on many of his teachings, intended or otherwise, that children learn a lot from their authority figures when young. He probably got many of his ideas about the Church and about "parenting" from his own authority figures, as we all did and do. He's also an older man who has no idea what children are really like and is trying to treat him like a little adult, rather than as a learning child. That's not to excuse his callousness at times, but he is frankly out of his element.
I LOVED the chapter where Philip is learning to read, and to read for fun and escape! Yes, in his case, it's more extreme, as he just doesn't have anyone to truly love him (although Mrs. Carey tries), but I remember that sheer delight of reading for hours and hours on end as a child. There is no other experience quite like it. Seeing that again through a child's eyes is thrilling.
While I wanted to shake those boys at the school for their treatment of him, I couldn't help but feel that the world has not changed all that much. Yes, we are more socially aware of bullies than we used to be, but kids (and adults) have always had a propensity to be mean-spirited, it seems. Unfortunately, that seems to take place in the teachers as well, which makes me feel sick when I think about it. There is nothing so potentially encouraging or detrimental to the growth and development of a child and his mind than the teachers he encounters, especially in his young life. I was so glad to see a teacher finally take an interest in him and see the positive potential. So valuable!
I wonder about the club foot. Is that just supposed to be his impediment, or is it also representative of the "vice" or irritant that each person has to deal with in life? All of us have our "thing" that makes us feel different, undesirable, afraid to be ridiculed about. For Phillip, it's a more obvious outward vice, but for many of us, it can be a learning disability, or shyness, or fears, or being the "smart kid," or any number of other things. I'm curious how that motif is developed in the rest of the book.
It always wrenches my heart when someone sees one passage of scripture and does not have an adequate teacher to help him see the possible nuances, and takes a whole lesson of faith from a misunderstanding. To have Phillip understand, like many others, that if something doesn't come out the way he wants, that it's a matter of his not having enough faith, is appalling. And especially when he lives under the roof of a religious teacher who should know better! Phillip even asks him about it, understanding that he must be missing something about the passage, and instead of Mr. Carey prying a bit further, asking some questions about WHY Phillip wants to know this, he gives a glib, disinterested reply about the person's obviously not having enough faith! What a heartbreaking thing to teach a child! I hope in later chapters that he gains a more positive, influential spiritual leader in his life, as well as the teacher for his mind.
(sorry for the small novel!)
Alana wrote: "Ok, having finally finished this first section and reading everyone's thoughts, these are my summary thoughts:..."Good post. I agree with most of your points, though I was more affected by Philip's mother's death than you were, and I'm not so sure that Rev. Carey wants to be good -- at least I think he puts other priorities well ahead of being good (like being comfortable and having his appetites fulfilled).
I wonder about the club foot. Is that just supposed to be his impediment, or is it also representative of the "vice" or irritant that each person has to deal with in life?
OHB being semi-autobiographical, most critics believe that it represented one of two impediments Maugham had (or I should perhaps not use the term impediment in both cases) -- he had a very bad stutter, and he was homosexual (later perhaps bisexual, but the homosexuality was, given the period in which he lived, a major issue). Critics I've read disagree on which of these the clubfoot is intended to represent, but all the ones I've read are in agreement that the clubfoot is intended to represent Maugham's growing up with what were for him significant impediments to his interactions with his peers.
(sorry for the small novel!)
Not sorry at all. Thanks for it!
Oh my glory, I feel as though I've experienced I don't know his many rounds with Mike Tyson- emotional ones. There's nothing that can put this Humpty Dumpty together again! It's not a bad thing though, I think...Thank you for everyone's comm
*comments.You've pretty much covered
everything and there's a lot to cover. So
many things stab me again and again when I think of them. His mother asking if he can stay a little longer - it doesn't do to break the code does it? The photos. When the teacher shouts something like you club footed blockhead! (Reminiscent of posters on pubs & restaurants in London in the 50s - No blacks
No dogs
No Irish)
Praying for his foot to be healed. The self-debasement of stripping off so that his prayers might be answered - like Catholic theology though I'm sure the vicar would have been horrified at such a comparison ...
So much more to go. Maugham doesn't just give us the top of the egg ...
Hilary wrote: " Maugham doesn't just give us the top of the egg ... "Nice. And no, he doesn't. He gives it all to us and, unless we duck him, makes us deal with a huge amount of emotion. But it's good, too.
I was indignant that his uncle gave Philip a slice of egg and he is supposed to be so grateful for it. "How did you like that top, Philip?"
"Very much, thank you."
"You shall have another one on Sunday afternoon." Not one egg--the top bit of his Uncle's egg.
Not too long after that he sets a condition: Philip has to memorize Bible verses in order to get THE TOP of the egg:
"If you can say it without a mistake when I come in to tea then you shall have the top of my egg."
I laughed at this bit: Uncle William used to tell Philip that when he was a curate his wife had known twelve songs by heart, which she could sing at a moment's notice whenever she was asked. She often sang still when there was a tea-party at the vicarage... After tea Miss Graves played one or two of Mendelssohn's "Songs without Words", and Mrs Carey sang "When the Swallows Homeward Fly" or "Trot, Trot, My Pony."
Bonnie wrote: "I was indignant that his uncle gave Philip a slice of egg and he is supposed to be so grateful for it."You shall have another one on ..."Soft boiled eggs in a china eggcup were a favorite weekend treat of my father, who was raise in England. He was skilled in cracking a line around the top of the egg so he could take the top off (inside the top piece of the shell). He usually had two eggs, and my sister and I were given the tops as a treat. So it may be an English trait of that generation.
Thanks for the personal tidbit. It makes things make more sense.
Everyman wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "I was indignant that his uncle gave Philip a slice of egg and he is supposed to be so grateful for it."You shall have another one on ..."Soft boiled eggs in a china eggcup were a f..."
That's interesting, I didn't know that!
Hello, I've recently joined the group as I saw discussion on this, my current read. Looking through the posts on this first section has been wonderful. I enjoy hearing your thoughts and perspectives.
I felt baldy for Philip as I read this section. He seems damaged and confused. When we meet Philip his life had been recently uprooted. His father had recently passed and he's moved to a new house where he does not feel at home. At first, he has his mom and his nurse. But then, he loses everything.Philip seems to have trouble processing the death of his parents and the whirlwind changes occurring in his life. But he accepts them. Well, what choice does he have? I did not feel that he was cold in any way. I felt that he was strong and, given his age, mostly in good control of himself. Although he does have moments of weakness, he is respectful of his aunt & uncle.
Hi, Jolina! I think you're going to enjoy this novel. Phillip is a terrific character, drawn with amazing depth as the story progresses. You really feel as if you're watching him grow up. I'll keep an eye out for your posts. :)
Hi Jolina & ReneeI read only half of this book with this group. I left it, not through lack of interest, as I do with so many. Perhaps I ought to join back in with you, Jolina, when I get to that point. (If I can work out where that is!).
I have been promising myself that I'll polish off my abandoned books, all of which were good, even great. I'd start back at the beginning if I weren't such a slow reader and I am reading other books, or about to. I was very much enjoying this book when I left it. :-)
Hi, Hilary. I don't remember your feelings on audiobooks, but if it helps the Librivox reader was quite good on this one.
Oh I love audiobooks, Renee. Well, particularly when the reader is good! I, unfortunately, have difficulty in finding them. I shall certainly try Librivox and see if I can track down a good one. Thank you so much. This may also prove to be a good tool by which to put to bed my other unfinished tomes! Thank you so much. I do hope that this finds you well.
I found OHB on Librivox, Renee. I'm hopeful that it will work very well for me, so again, many thanks. :)
Hello Hilary, I'm happy to hear that you may be finishing the book soon. It will be nice to have some ongoing discussion. A friend of mine is reading with me. I'll try to get him here, too.I'll look into the Librivox recording, too. It's always nice to have audio as an option. Thanks Renee.
Hello Everyone, Joining here thanks to Jolina for the invite ! I've been enjoying this book so far.
Phillip seems like a very bright boy, obedient and shy. The loss of his parents and nanny in addition to being put in to a new home with new rules make it tough for him; he seems to take it in stride.
Getting through school looks like it may bee a bit tougher for him. Kids can be cruel to one another let alone when there is someone different than they are.
I look forward to reading more and sharing with the rest of you !
Hello Nico! It's great to have you here. I am keen to pick up where I left off and finish this book. From what I picked up so far it is worthy of being read.I love Maugham's writing style which I find instantly accessible. The scene that deals with Phillip and his mother is heart wrenching. He is at the mercy of those around him. No one appears to be evil, but their parenting skills are somewhat lacking. His aunt wants to be kind, but I suppose that there weren't many how-to manuals about in that era. :p. I am interested to read on and see what's in store for our young boy. I hope not to lag behind ...
Yeah. It takes a long while for Philip to find his way but the journey is so darn interesting
I found the master's treatment of Phillip very upsetting when he repeatedly calls him a blockhead whilst referring to his club foot. The child has enough to contend with. As an orphan with a distant stepfather and a clueless stepmother, dare we to foresee a happy future for him? I really do hope so ...
Are Jolina and Nico still on board? If you wouldn't mind, could you inform me when our week two begins, since we are, of course, on an old thread? I could keep track in my diary from then on, I hope! Thank you, in advance. :-)
Hi Hillary, yes I am still reading! I will be finishing the week 2 section this weekend.
Ok, thanks Jolina, Nico and Renee. I'm excited at having the chance to finish this book second time around! I shall get reading again! :)
Hi Nico and Jolina. I'm just trying to plough on in order to transfer this book from the TBR shelf to the Read shelf. It has been too long in waiting. I think I'm about to start reading Book 5. Please feel free to join at any point. :)
Neither the Vicar nor Mrs. Carey went out of the garden much during this period; for they disliked strange faces, and they looked upon the visitors from London with aversion. The house opposite was taken for six weeks by a gentleman who had two little boys, and he sent in to ask if Philip would like to go and play with them; but Mrs. Carey returned a polite refusal. She was afraid that Philip would be corrupted by little boys from London. He was going to be a clergyman, and it was necessary that he should be preserved from contamination. She liked to see in him an infant Samuel.
Just seems to accentuate that Philip is a 9 year old who apparently has had in the past, and certainly doesn't have now, any real chance to learn to socialize with his peers. How will this affect his character in future?